Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[Guojing]

Jacob was also King Saul's father, and Saul was not elected to salvation.

That is true.

Being Jacob's seed is necessary but not sufficient.

But since you don't even fulfill the necessary condition, you cannot be the elect.

 

[Guojing]

I am a child of Abraham by faith. I am of the elect, spiritual seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I am a child of the promise like them. Race has nothing to do with this.

You must provide the scripture which states that believing gentiles are the seed of Jacob.

 

[David Lamb]

You must provide the scripture which states that believing gentiles are the seed of Jacob.

“5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? —“6 ¶ just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”” (Ga 3:5-8 NKJV)

Yes, those verses don't mention Jacob, but they are talking of faith, so clearly not Esau or Ishmael and their descendants.

 

[Guojing]

“5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? —“6 ¶ just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”” (Ga 3:5-8 NKJV)

Yes, those verses don't mention Jacob, but they are talking of faith, so clearly not Esau or Ishmael and their descendants.

Everyone love to use Abraham, and I agree, there is plenty of scripture from Paul saying we are Abraham's descendants.

As I already said, the reason for Galatians 3 is to prove that our salvation by faith alone without works is based on Abraham in Genesis 15.

Abraham received righteousness by faith without works, as Gal 3 quoted Genesis 15 correctly, which was before Genesis 17, before physical circumcision.

So he is our father in faith, we also received righteousness by faith without works thru Christ's death burial and resurrection, aka 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Paul says nothing about us having Jacob as our father, so you are explaining something else, other than the point you are replying to.

 

[David Lamb]

Everyone love to use Abraham, and I agree, there is plenty of scripture from Paul saying we are Abraham's descendants.

As I already said, the reason for Galatians 3 is to say this:

Abraham received righteousness by faith without works, as Gal 3 quoted Genesis 15 correctly, which was before Genesis 17, before physical circumcision.

So he is our father in faith, we also received righteousness by faith without works thru Christ's death burial and resurrection, aka 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Paul says nothing about us having Jacob as our father, so you are explaining something else, other than the point you are replying to.

I don't understand what difference it makes whether or not all Christians can be called children of Jacob, as they are called children of Abraham. After all, we are not talking about physical descent, whether from Abraham or from Jacob, unless we happen t be Jewish Christians.

 

[Clare73]

That is true.

Being Jacob's seed is necessary but not sufficient.

But since you don't even fulfill the necessary condition, you cannot be the elect.

Agreed. . .I am not the Old Covenant elect. . .but Jesus is, and I am in Jesus, so I am Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's seed (Gal 3:29), and heir according to the promise (Ro 4:16, Eph 3:6).

 

[Clare73]

That is true.

Being Jacob's seed is necessary but not sufficient.

But since you don't even fulfill the necessary condition, you cannot be the elect.

Indeed. . .I am not the elect into the people of God in Israel.

But I am the elect who are heirs in Jesus, inheriting all the promises he inherits as Jacob's seed (Gal 3:29).

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't understand what difference it makes whether or not all Christians can be called children of Jacob, as they are called children of Abraham. After all, we are not talking about physical descent, whether from Abraham or from Jacob, unless we happen t be Jewish Christians.

Even then true Jewishness is ours in Jesus.

 

[Guojing]

I don't understand what difference it makes whether or not all Christians can be called children of Jacob, as they are called children of Abraham. After all, we are not talking about physical descent, whether from Abraham or from Jacob, unless we happen t be Jewish Christians.

Its simple actually. Let me spelt out the argument slowly.

Abraham was given many blessings: of land, of righteousness without works, of many nations, etc throughout scripture, for example in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, Genesis 17, and Genesis 22.

One particular blessing that he gotten, righteousness by faith alone (Genesis 15:6), was given specifically before God commanded him to physically circumcise himself in Genesis 17.

His sole child of promise, Isaac, cannot claim to have that since he was circumcised at birth, nor can Isaac's son Jacob as well.

That is why, if you read Galatians 3 carefully, we got the blessing of Abraham (singular) (Gal 3:14), because being in the Body of Christ, we are also the child of promise.

That singular blessing was the main one given before circumcision, so we gentiles in the Body of Christ can legitimately, in the eyes of God, be justified by faith alone without works (Romans 4:5).

But the other blessings of Abraham, that was repeated to Isaac, repeated to Jacob, are not for us to claim, the physical land promise etc. Israel as a nation was given many other promises by God because of the Law, because of the Old Covenant, and, in the future millennial reign, the New Covenant.

If you anyhow think you are also the seed of Jacob, then you will also think there is a physical land waiting for you to inherit on Earth as well, or that you will be also under the New Covenant which is scripturally incorrect (Hebrews 8:8 Romans 9:4)

Hope this presentation is clear why being Abraham's seed is not equivalent to being Jacob's seed, and why that distinction is important.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Its simple actually. Let me spelt out the argument slowly.

Abraham was given many blessings: of land, of righteousness without works, of many nations, etc throughout scripture, for example in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, Genesis 17, and Genesis 22.

One particular blessing that he gotten, righteousness by faith alone (Genesis 15:6), was given specifically before God commanded him to physically circumcise himself in Genesis 17.

His sole child of promise, Isaac, cannot claim to have that since he was circumcised at birth, nor can Isaac's son Jacob as well.

That is why, if you read Galatians 3 carefully, we got the blessing of Abraham (singular) (Gal 3:14), because being in the Body of Christ, we are also the child of promise.

That singular blessing was the main one given before circumcision, so we gentiles in the Body of Christ can legitimately, in the eyes of God, be justified by faith alone without works (Romans 4:5).

But the other blessings of Abraham, that was repeated to Isaac, repeated to Jacob, are not for us to claim, the physical land promise etc. Israel as a nation was given many other promises by God because of the Law, because of the Old Covenant, and, in the future millennial reign, the New Covenant.

If you anyhow think you are also the seed of Jacob, then you will also think there is a physical land waiting for you to inherit on Earth as well, or that you will be also under the New Covenant which is scripturally incorrect (Hebrews 8:8 Romans 9:4)

Hope this presentation is clear why being Abraham's seed is not equivalent to being Jacob's seed, and why that distinction is important.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Guojing]

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Again you are referring to the Body of Christ, where all of us who believe Paul's gospel, as spelt out in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are all one in Christ, regardless of Jew and gentile etc.

Therefore, we are all justified by faith alone without works (Romans 4:5)

Your error is to insist that that verse is also true to the elect, the nation of Israel (James 2:24)

 

[Guojing]

at least part(s) of what you've posted in the past have appeared to be correct, yes.
but realize that when a righteous man gets circumcised that act does not make him unrighteous, no.

Today, as Carl used Galatians 3:28 above, it doesn't matter. Its all thanks to the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11) as well as the revelation of the mystery that was given to Paul (Ephesians 3:1-7)

But recognize that, after God gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision in Genesis 17, as spelt out in Genesis 17:14 explicitly, one who is not physically circumcised is cut off from God.

That is why the physical descendants of Abraham, whether Ishamel, Esau, Isaac, Jacob and Jacob's 12 sons, must all be circumcised.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Again you are referring to the Body of Christ, where all of us who believe Paul's gospel, as spelt out in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are all one in Christ, regardless of Jew and gentile etc.

Therefore, we are all justified by faith alone without works (Romans 4:5)

Your error is to insist that that verse is also true to the elect, the nation of Israel (James 2:24)

Are you claiming that the elect are the Nation of Israel ???????????????

 

[keras]

Are you claiming that the elect are the Nation of Israel ???????????????

Thise who think the Jewish State of Israel, has a place in the end times, are wrong. Over 20 Prophesies tell of their virtual demise and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Romans 9:27, +
ONLY those who accept Christ now are Gods chosen peoples. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

 

[Guojing]

Are you claiming that the elect are the Nation of Israel ???????????????

Israel today is fallen (Romans 11:11) so no.

But Israel between Exodus and Acts 7 certainly was, and Israel during the future Great Tribulation will be (Romans 11:25-28)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus taught in Matt 22 that many are called but few are chosen.

This indicates that not all Jews were chosen.

Salvation by faith stands, not blood.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus taught in Matt 22 that many are called but few are chosen.

This indicates that not all Jews were chosen.

Salvation by faith stands, not blood.

Just because not all Jews were chosen, does not mean there will be no nation of Israel that would inherit their promised kingdom when Christ return for them (Romans 11:25-29)