Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[Guojing]

God's Promises are for the true Israelites of God, The people group, who for now are scattered among the nations and who bear the proper fruit.
NOT that mixed race group who falsely call themselves Israel.

Again, do you call Jacob your father?

 

[keras]

Yes, we cannot be the elect today, since Jacob is not our father

Isaiah 51:1-2, Galatians 3:26-29, refute you.
It is a fundamental truth that Christian believers are the Spiritual descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ethnic descent has no value.

 

[Guojing]

Isaiah 51:1-2, Galatians 3:26-29, refute you.
It is a fundamental truth that Christian believers are the Spiritual descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ethnic descent has no value.

None of those scriptures refute my point

 

[Clare73]

Yes, we cannot be the elect today, since Jacob is not our father

The elect of the OT, Jacob/Israel, were not elected to salvation, while the elect of the NT are elected to salvation.

 

[keras]

None of those scriptures refute my point

Oh, so you mean - Jacob as our literal, actual father?

It is obvious that scripture here is drawing a Spiritual meaning. Those people with the attributes of Jacob, as he was an Overcome for God, who can claim to be a child of Jacob.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, we cannot be the elect today, since Jacob is not our father

Gal 3
6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

 

[Guojing]

Gal 3
6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Abraham received righteousness by faith without works, as Gal 3 quoted Genesis 15 correctly, which was before Genesis 17, before physical circumcision.

So he is our father in faith, we also received righteousness by faith without works thru Christ's death burial and resurrection, aka 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Paul says nothing about us having Jacob as our father, so you are explaining something else, other than the point you are replying to.

 

[Guojing]

Oh, so you mean - Jacob as our literal, actual father?

It is obvious that scripture here is drawing a Spiritual meaning. Those people with the attributes of Jacob, as he was an Overcome for God, who can claim to be a child of Jacob.

So we can also claim to be sons of David, Solomon, whoever you want, based on spiritualizing passages?

Alright then.

 

[Guojing]

The elect of the OT, Jacob/Israel, were not elected to salvation, while the elect of the NT are elected to salvation.

Peter and the little flock can called Jacob their father, and they were elected to salvation.

A implies B
C implies B

does not allow you to conclude that A and C are equivalent.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Abraham received righteousness by faith without works, as Gal 3 quoted Genesis 15 correctly, which was before Genesis 17, before physical circumcision.

So he is our father in faith, we also received righteousness by faith without works thru Christ's death burial and resurrection, aka 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Paul says nothing about us having Jacob as our father, so you are explaining something else, other than the point you are replying to.

You claimed "we cannot be the elect today."

The "Children of the Promise" are the elect who's Spiritual Father is Abraham.

This is who the true believers in Christ are today. This is what Paul was saying in Gal 3.

It has nothing to do with 'Blood line' rather the chosen are those with the gift of faith that Abraham was given.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So we can also claim to be sons of David, Solomon, whoever you want, based on spiritualizing passages?

Alright then.

Paul said Abraham has that spiritual title.

The reader is not to spiritualise others without a biblical mandate.

The reader does not need to spiritualise Abraham - Scripture does this for us.

Let's return to what Scripture says.

 

[Guojing]

Paul said Abraham has that spiritual title.

The reader is not to spiritualise others without a biblical mandate.

The reader does not need to spiritualise Abraham - Scripture does this for us.

Let's return to what Scripture says.

U keep talking about Abraham when I am talking about Jacob.

Being Abraham's seed does not imply you are Jacob's seed.

You need to be Jacob's seed to be part of the elect, part of believing Israel.

 

[Guojing]

You claimed "we cannot be the elect today."

The "Children of the Promise" are the elect who's Spiritual Father is Abraham.

This is who the true believers in Christ are today. This is what Paul was saying in Gal 3.

Galatians 3 says nothing about us being the elect.

It says we are righteous by faith without works.

 

[Clare73]

Peter and the little flock can called Jacob their father, and they were elected to salvation.

Jacob was also King Saul's father, and Saul was not elected to salvation.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Is Jacob your father?

I am a child of Abraham by faith. I am of the elect, spiritual seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I am a child of the promise like them. Race has nothing to do with this.

 

[keras]

I am a child of Abraham by faith. I am of the elect, spiritual seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I am a child of the promise like them. Race has nothing to do with this.

I agree.
But many people cannot get over how ethnic Israel is no longer of any value or purpose for Salvation. In fact it never was.

God will keep His Promises to the Patriarchs of their descendants inheriting all of the Holy Land, by their faith in God. ALSO by their actual descent, as everyone alive now, has some of their genes.

 

[Carl Emerson]

U keep talking about Abraham when I am talking about Jacob.

Being Abraham's seed does not imply you are Jacob's seed.

You need to be Jacob's seed to be part of the elect, part of believing Israel.

The seed of Abraham is Jesus and we derive the spiritual blessings through His indwelling.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Galatians 3 says nothing about us being the elect.

It says we are righteous by faith without works.

Faith is a gift to the chosen.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Paul summarises the matter here... Phil 3. In summary the bloodline counts for Zero.

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

 

[Guojing]

The seed of Abraham is Jesus and we derive the spiritual blessings through His indwelling.

That is correct, I totally agree with you.

Still you are not addressing my point about the elect, why you need to be Jacob's seed, to be the elect.