Can man, without the light of faith, by his reason alone, know that God exists?

[PrincetonGuy]

You obviously misunderstood my post. I am not arguing that the fool can come to God by himself. No one can come to God on their own. But the verse that you posted was out of context so I posted the context.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

bible.com

Knowing that God exits (the subject of this thread) and coming to God (the subject of other threads) are two very different things.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

If any unbeliever reasons the existence of God then he/she would become a believer because God has softened their heart. Unbelievers typically reason the non existence of God.

In Chattanooga, they would call this “hogwash.” Where I live, they would call it “gibberish!” In Southeast Los Angeles, they would call it “####!” I would call it subjective reasoning in the absence of objective facts.

 

[ARBITER01]

Coming to Jesus Christ is different from reasoning to the existence of God.

That is true.

One can have a changed mind but not have a changed heart.

 

[RDKirk]

But the point is that creation already makes it clear that God cannot not exist, no?

No. That's not clear at all, unless you make a preliminary presumption that God cannot exist.

See my #11.

 

[Hentenza]

In Chattanooga, they would call this “hogwash.” Where I live, they would call it “gibberish!” In Southeast Los Angeles, they would call it “####!” I would call it subjective reasoning in the absence of objective facts.

In theology is called scriptural.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

bible.com

If no one can come to God unless He draws Him first then if an unbeliever proves in his/her mind that God exists then God drew them to Him. It’s perfectly scriptural.

Obviously you are oblivious of logic and only attack without defending your attack. You do know how to explain and defend your posts, right? Demeaning and goading posters is against the site’s rules. You should know this as you’ve been here long enough to know.

 

[Hentenza]

Knowing that God exits (the subject of this thread) and coming to God (the subject of other threads) are two very different things.

This is general theology. The existence of God is a priori. No need to prove that God exists. In order to post here you have to agree with the Nicene creed. You do know that, right?

 

[Hentenza]

Coming to Jesus Christ is different from reasoning to the existence of God.

Wait. In order to come to Jesus Christ you have to reason that God exists. Jesus Chris IS God. Paul’s words assume the existence of God. Paul also wrote Romans and in chapter one he teaches that no one has an excuse since the unrighteous suppresses the truth in unrighteousness even though God is evident within them. So if God is evident within the unbeliever and they have not reasoned the existence of God then they are simply suppressing the truth within them. If they stop suppressing the evidence already within them then they would know the existence if God and become a believer.

 

[RDKirk]

In theology is called scriptural.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

bible.com

If no one can come to God unless He draws Him first then if an unbeliever proves in his/her mind that God exists then God drew them to Him. It’s perfectly scriptural.

Obviously you are oblivious of logic and only attack without defending your attack. You do know how to explain and defend your posts, right? Demeaning and goading posters is against the site’s rules. You should know this as you’ve been here long enough to know.

Then you also have to argue that God's "drawing" can be resisted, because that's definitely what Paul is talking about in Romans 1 and what we read in Hebrews 6.

 

[Hentenza]

Then you also have to argue that God's "drawing" can be resisted, because that's definitely what Paul is talking about in Romans 1 and what we read in Hebrews 6.

Paul is not talking about resisting God in Heb. 6. Begin reading at the last portion of Heb.5 so that you can understand what the “therefore” that begins chapter 6 relates to. Paul is talking about new Christians (those still taking milk rather than eating meat) those are new to the faith in chapter 6. These have not matured in their faith and can indeed fall away as did many of the Jews that had newly accepted Jesus during that time because of the pressures brought by the other unconverted Jews. You need to also read the parable of the soils so you can understand the different levels of faith. That is why it is incumbent on us to teach and mature new Christians so that they can fulfill their faiths.

 

[BobRyan]

St. Paul writes to the Hebrews (11:6): “He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a Rewarder to them that seek Him”. It is asked by many: “Can man, without the light of faith, by his reason alone, know that God exists?” He certainly can. For the 18th Psalm says: “The heavens show forth the glory of God”; and St. Paul writes to the Romans (1:20): “The invisible things of Him (of God) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; His eternal power also and Divinity”.

true.

And of course we can see in very primitive people groups around the world a belief that something else is out there , in the form of spirits or gods.

But they are not truly in the proposed vacuum since John 16 says "God convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment"

 

[fhansen]

No. That's not clear at all, unless you make a preliminary presumption that God cannot exist.

See my #11.

Not sure how that works. Rom 1 sure seems to say that creation makes it clear

 

[RDKirk]

But the point is that creation already makes it clear that God cannot not exist, no?

No. That's not clear at all, unless you make a preliminary presumption that God cannot exist.

See my #11.

Creation does not make it clear "that God cannot exist."

Creation displays evidence that God does exist.

And creation displays evidence to a sufficient degree that no man has an excuse to assert that God does not exist.

 

[RDKirk]

Then you also have to argue that God's "drawing" can be resisted, because that's definitely what Paul is talking about in Romans 1 and what we read in Hebrews 6.

Paul is not talking about resisting God in Heb. 6. Begin reading at the last portion of Heb.5 so that you can understand what the “therefore” that begins chapter 6 relates to. Paul is talking about new Christians (those still taking milk rather than eating meat) those are new to the faith in chapter 6. These have not matured in their faith and can indeed fall away as did many of the Jews that had newly accepted Jesus during that time because of the pressures brought by the other unconverted Jews. You need to also read the parable of the soils so you can understand the different levels of faith. That is why it is incumbent on us to teach and mature new Christians so that they can fulfill their faiths.

You're deflecting. I'll repeat my assertion:

Then you also have to argue that God's "drawing" can be resisted.

We can agree that every man has ample evidence in creation to know of God's existence and essential virtue.

We can agree that no man can come to Christ without God's "drawing" him to Christ.

So, either God does not draw every man, but chooses whom He will draw (which leans toward Calvinism),

Or God does draw every man, but some resist Him.

 

[Hentenza]

You're deflecting. I'll repeat my assertion:

Then you also have to argue that God's "drawing" can be resisted.

We can agree that every man has ample evidence in creation to know of God's existence and essential virtue.

We can agree that no man can come to Christ without God's "drawing" him to Christ.

So, either God does not draw every man, but chooses whom He will draw (which leans toward Calvinism),

Or God does draw every man, but some resist Him.

I didn’t deflect but answered you directly. I told you about the different levels of faith. I asked you to read the parable of the soils which you did not. I even told you about the new Christian that could fall away in Heb. 6 but you didn’t comment in that. So let’s look at the parable of the soils,

““The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the sky ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky soil, and when it came up, it withered away because it had no moisture. Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. And yet other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as much.” As He said these things, He would call out, “The one who has ears to hear, let him hear.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8‬:‭5‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 8:5-8 “The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the sky ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky soil, and when it came up, | New American Standard Bible - NASB (

“The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the sky ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky soil, and when it came up,

bible.com

Here is Jesus explanation to the parable.

““Now this is the parable: the seed is the word of God. And those beside the road are the ones who have heard, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. Those on the rocky soil are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and yet these do not have a firm root; they believe for a while, and in a time of temptation they fall away. And the seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked by worries, riches, and pleasures of this life, and they bring no fruit to maturity. But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word with a good and virtuous heart, and hold it firmly, and produce fruit with perseverance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8‬:‭11‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 8:11-15 “Now this is the parable: the seed is the word of God. And those beside the road are the ones who have heard, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not belie | New American Standard Bible - NASB

“Now this is the parable: the seed is the word of God. And those beside the road are the ones who have heard, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not belie

bible.com

The word of God is the draw, the call. The seed that lands by the road are the ones that resist the call and the devil takes their faith away. So yes, some people will resist the call. You could even make the argument that the seed that fell in rocky soil and among the thorn, while did not initially resist the call, did not have enough faith to remain in God. However, those that fell in good soil did not resist the draw but quite the opposite they embraced it.

So I did answer your question directly but you chose to ignore it. Sometimes an answer is not an either/or or a yes or no.

 

[fhansen]

Creation does not make it clear "that God cannot exist."

Creation displays evidence that God does exist.

And creation displays evidence to a sufficient degree that no man has an excuse to assert that God does not exist.

Be a good idea to reread my post there, RD. Sounds like we misread each other.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

In theology is called scriptural.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

bible.com

If no one can come to God unless He draws Him first then if an unbeliever proves in his/her mind that God exists then God drew them to Him. It’s perfectly scriptural.

Obviously you are oblivious of logic and only attack without defending your attack. You do know how to explain and defend your posts, right? Demeaning and goading posters is against the site’s rules. You should know this as you’ve been here long enough to know.

I have never on a Christian message board demeaned or goaded another member because that is not who I am! I do not know you and I said nothing about you. My comments were entirely limited to what you posted. However, you have written and posted:

“Obviously you are oblivious of logic and only attack without defending your attack. You do know how to explain and defend your posts, right?”

There is something very, very wrong here!

Moreover, I did explain and defend my post, writing “I would call it subjective reasoning in the absence of objective facts.”

Furthermore, knowing that God exits (the subject of this thread) and coming to God (the subject of other threads) are two very different things. Let’s stay on the topic of THIS thread.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

This is general theology. The existence of God is a priori. No need to prove that God exists. In order to post here you have to agree with the Nicene creed. You do know that, right?

Where is this coming from?

 

[Hentenza]

Where is this coming from?

General Theology statement of purpose which is a sticky in GT. The statement of faith includes the nicene creed.

“The General Theology forums are for discussing and debating the various theological doctrines of the Christian faith. All member's who participate in GT are self-identified Christians through adherence to the Christian Forums' Statement of Faith and the Trinitarian nature of God.”

 

[Hentenza]

I have never on a Christian message board demeaned or goaded another member because that is not who I am! I do not know you and I said nothing about you. My comments were entirely limited to what you posted. However, you have written and posted:

“Obviously you are oblivious of logic and only attack without defending your attack. You do know how to explain and defend your posts, right?”

There is something very, very wrong here!

Moreover, I did explain and defend my post, writing “I would call it subjective reasoning in the absence of objective facts.”

Furthermore, knowing that God exits (the subject of this thread) and coming to God (the subject of other threads) are two very different things. Let’s stay on the topic of THIS thread.

Your earlier post:

In Chattanooga, they would call this “hogwash.” Where I live, they would call it “gibberish!” In Southeast Los Angeles, they would call it “####!” I would call it subjective reasoning in the absence of objective facts.

This is goading and attacking the poster. Hogwash, gibberish and cursing does not lead to a civil discussion. Just stating that you thought that it was subjective reasoning with an explanation would have sufficed.

I do remember you (primarily your username) from 10 years ago. We used to have conversations in the Baptist room and GT back then.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Your earlier post:

This is goading and attacking the poster. Hogwash, gibberish and cursing does not lead to a civil discussion. Just stating that you thought that it was subjective reasoning with an explanation would have sufficed.

I have never on a Christian message board demeaned or intentionally goaded another member because that is not who I am! I do not know you and I said nothing about you. My comments were entirely limited to what you posted.