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God, omnibenevolent or omnipotent and omniscient?

GoldenKingGaze

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This is all just speculation on your part. Do you think God was somehow taken off guard when the fall happened? If so, why was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world?
Personally I think God is the Father of Eternity Isaiah 9:6. And like King David comparing God with the breakers of the sea, and not yet knowing about the storms on Jupiter... there is more to God than can be imagined in a day long session. Before any creation, or perhaps still alone in a root and primordial Heaven, they knew and discussed by thoughts, all options of angelic names, designs, powers and numbers... Not causing but knowing there would be a mutiny, they chose only one leader of it and aimed to minimise the damage and prepared to enter into creation as Christ and suffer with us and in our place and die and ransom us, and become victorious. God always knew of sons of God falling.

It may have been that King David, actually saw and heard Heaven to describe God.

Satan was once a holy angel, and was free of temptation except from his own thoughts, devices. The angels had a choice in different ways to Adam and Eve and us today.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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This is all just speculation on your part. Do you think God was somehow taken off guard when the fall happened? If so, why was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world?
You can check the meaning of the name Eden. Genesis also mentions cursed land. Curses are powered by evil spirits. Childbirth was then to become painful. We have to work according to the same Genesis passage. There is disease, sourced by the work of Satan. Also war (not mentioned in Genesis), drought. Paul mentions war waged within our members, loins, eyes, stomach... appetites swelling beyond the human spirit. The need to be born again is here, and unlike Adam, we are not Spirit filled at conception. John the Baptist an exception.

John the apostle says God loves all sinners. Their temptation and the accusations against them, well God doesn't want them to fall. God does not wish the death of a sinner.
 
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Hentenza

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I am saying that God has to allow us to say yes or no to love. He knows what the angels and souls will say in advance and some are predestined to life by their choice when their opportunity comes. God is dependant on other agencies and gives grace and blessings, to help us choose life. Fallen angels block us and we need God and grace. Satan is the obstacle. God did not make this nature. He knew about it long ago. He uses or depends on it to give us a choice, since He won't tempt us. The only limit on omnipotence is not forcing love.
By trying to explain the unexplainable you made a caricature of God. Once again, God cannot be contingent on ANY agency. All of God’s attributes are absolute. Your argument relies on the fallacy of either/or. You compare and contrast Arminianism versus Calvinism which are but two soteriological theories. You also rely on only two options of accepting the love of God, either by violating His attributes or by God forcing the choice. Once again, this is an argument based on a fallacy. Your finite little brain, like all humans, can not fully understand an infinite being.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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By trying to explain the unexplainable you made a caricature of God. Once again, God cannot be contingent on ANY agency. All of God’s attributes are absolute. Your argument relies on the fallacy of either/or. You compare and contrast Arminianism versus Calvinism which are but two soteriological theories. You also rely on only two options of accepting the love of God, either by violating His attributes or by God forcing the choice. Once again, this is an argument based on a fallacy. Your finite little brain, like all humans, can not fully understand an infinite being.
Finite brain or not, it is worth trying rather than giving up and just trusting blind. I think God uses the agency of Satan because he is there, not wanting it. As in Job, and Exodus, the Angel of Death has uses. It was not so in primordial times with the Holy Angels. Then iniquity in the one angel led to temptation, and it was used by God and the obedient angels gained a nature of greater holiness after making the right choice.

What do you mean by violating His attributes?
 
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Hentenza

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Finite brain or not, it is worth trying rather than giving up and just trusting blind.
Not blind. It’s called faith.

“Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.””
‭‭John‬ ‭20‬:‭29‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
I think God uses the agency of Satan because he is there, not wanting it. As in Job, and Exodus, the Angel of Death has uses. It was not so in primordial times with the Holy Angels. Then iniquity in the one angel led to temptation, and it was used by God and the obedient angels gained a nature of greater holiness after making the right choice.
Yep. All for God‘s glory.
What do you mean by violating His attributes?
Please see my post 68.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Not blind. It’s called faith.

“Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.””
‭‭John‬ ‭20‬:‭29‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Yep. All for God‘s glory.

Please see my post 68.
Some people are not happy with blind faith, Thomas Aquinas began to address that. Thomas the apostle checked Jesus, and was told happy are those who have not seen yet believe. But Thomas also spoke a revelation of great value in that moment, "My Lord and my God."

Jesus was happy for the Jews to believe by seeing the miracles. We need things like that.

His attributes like omniscience don't control us, nor will he use power or potency to make us love Him.

Consider the astronomical number of years left before that last star becomes a black hole. God can see it already. He knew evil would come to exist. That's a simplification. Our free wills are not under God unless we choose sanctification. It takes time and effort from both God and us. It can make use of the works and agency of Satan, in the beginning, Paradise, pleasure, but after the fall, long sanctification processes and suffering. Using Satan, is the second choice.
 
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Hentenza

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Some people are not happy with blind faith, Thomas Aquinas began to address that. Thomas the apostle checked Jesus, and was told happy are those who have not seen yet believe. But Thomas also spoke a revelation of great value in that moment, "My Lord and my God."

Jesus was happy for the Jews to believe by seeing the miracles. We need things like that.
Aquinas argued that faith and reason are complimentary including his five ways to show the credibility of faith. However, Aquinas also argued the limits of reason with regards to fully understanding the infinite God. He uses the concept of the Trinity as an example. Remember that Aquinas also put forth the contingency argument for the proof of God as well as His attributes so Aquinas fully understood the necessity of God with regard to contingency. He argued that if a being is contingent on any agency then He can choose not to exist but God is necessary, therefore, He can not be contingent on any agency.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Aquinas argued that faith and reason are complimentary including his five ways to show the credibility of faith. However, Aquinas also argued the limits of reason with regards to fully understanding the infinite God. He uses the concept of the Trinity as an example. Remember that Aquinas also put forth the contingency argument for the proof of God as well as His attributes so Aquinas fully understood the necessity of God with regard to contingency. He argued that if a being is contingent on any agency then He can choose not to exist but God is necessary, therefore, He can not be contingent on any agency.
I am not saying His existence depends on angels or sons of God, or evil... just that He uses it, and knew it would come about, since He doesn't force control us. We have to be able to say yes or no to God. Maybe I misunderstood what you mean by contingent.
 
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Hentenza

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I am not saying Hi s existence depends on angels or sons of God, or evil... just that He uses it, and knew it would come about, since He doesn't force control us. We have to be able to say yes or no to God.
But God already knows what you are going to decide so how do you factor that in? Hopefully you are not saying that God has to await your decision to know what happens next, right?
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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But God already knows what you are going to decide so how do you factor that in? Hopefully you are not saying that God has to await your decision to know what happens next, right?
Romans 8:29, God knows in advance, what we will do, and some will be saved.

Why test us? He knows how we will respond, but He tests us anyway. Honor to God.
 
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Hentenza

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Romans 8:29, God knows in advance, what we will do, and some will be saved.

Why test us? He knows how we will respond, but He tests us anyway. Honor to God.
But you did not answer my question. Hopefully you are not saying that God has to await your decision to know what happens next, right?
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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But you did not answer my question. Hopefully you are not saying that God has to await your decision to know what happens next, right?
No, God knows as from Romans. The Father knows everything, that is omniscience. Jesus somehow doesn't yet know, when He will return. He knows all of us, what we will do. I suppose in time He will become fully restored to glory as Isaiah 9:6, Father of Eternity. God in Jesus is the author of time.
 
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Hentenza

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No, God knows as from Romans. The Father knows everything, that is omniscience. Jesus somehow doesn't yet know, when He will return. He knows all of us, what we will do. I suppose in time He will become fully restored to glory as Isaiah 9:6, Father of Eternity. God in Jesus is the author of time.
Right. So how does Arminian free will work?
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Right. So how does Arminian free will work?
As infants we are responsive to grace and if we die so young, we return to the light of the Creator. It is automatic. The old church called it the beatific vision. God wants us to live a full length life. God wants us to hear the Gospel. When we hear the Gospel and there is grace, we should respond by faith, changing our mind about sin to turn to God, and asking for salvation in prayer and receiving the Holy Spirit. Some may need knowledge and the power of Jesus' sacred blood.

Some people, like Moses' Pharaoh have learned to dislike the people of God and might believe they have all the answers to the religious and philosophical questions in other gods. And they harden to grace rather than responding by repenting. The latter if they die this way, may be lost, and in Hell.

Satan deceives us, some more than others, leading to hard hearts regarding God's message and grace.

God will not force people to repent, love or worship Him. He will tell us, "do not harden your hearts as they did at Meribah, in the rebellion." But the choice is ours as individuals. God can make decisions for us, if someone intercedes well. Circumstances change, it makes us see the terrible fate of Hell, and disappointment with sin life, perhaps it comes to life or death, and we repent.

God knows in advance who will repent. They become His.
 
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Hentenza

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As infants we are responsive to grace and if we die so young, we return to the light of the Creator. It is automatic. The old church called it the beatific vision. God wants us to live a full length life. God wants us to hear the Gospel. When we hear the Gospel and there is grace, we should respond by faith, changing our mind about sin to turn to God, and asking for salvation in prayer and receiving the Holy Spirit. Some may need knowledge and the power of Jesus' sacred blood.

Some people, like Moses' Pharaoh have learned to dislike the people of God and might believe they have all the answers to the religious and philosophical questions in other gods. And they harden to grace rather than responding by repenting. The latter if they die this way, may be lost, and in Hell.

Satan deceives us, some more than others, leading to hard hearts regarding God's message and grace.

God will not force people to repent, love or worship Him. He will tell us, "do not harden your hearts as they did at Meribah, in the rebellion." But the choice is ours as individuals. God can make decisions for us, if someone intercedes well. Circumstances change, it makes us see the terrible fate of Hell, and disappointment with sin life, perhaps it comes to life or death, and we repent.

God knows in advance who will repent. They become His.
But if God knows in advance what we are going to choose then how does that translate to free will?
 
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CoreyD

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In theodicies we consider God almighty and how evil still occurs. Can God really turn Satan's heart into repentance at any time He wants, or annihilate him?
God gave a human the heart of a beast, so that the man's mind was no longer human, but that of a beast.
The man went on all fours, and began eating the vegetation of the field. Daniel 4:16, 33
So, this demonstrates that God can change a person to go in opposition to their own will.

However, a man convinced against his own will, is of the same mind still, so God would be controlling someone against their will for their entire life, and that is not the way God designed his intelligent creatures to live.

Nebuchadnezzar's experience was for a period of time, to demonstrate his limitations, and show him who is really above all.
While that humbled Nebuchadnezzar for a time, Nebuchadnezzar was back to being proud in no time.

This shows that you can't change a person really, because that change has to come from within - the heart, and one is responsible for his own heart.
It is the person they are within. Matthew 15:17-20

Some suppose that God has a special purpose for evil we don't know yet.
Why do you think we don't know?
Doesn't the Bible tell us?
Does James 1:13-15 answer this question?
If that does not help, please consider Psalm 5:4, 5, Habakkuk 1:13

Or God makes some people for Hell, but that isn't good.
The Bible says, "For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!" Ezekiel 18:32
How much less would God take pleasure in literally tormenting people.
Jeremiah 7:31 says, not only is it not good. It's not something that God has even thought of, to do.

Then one can look at the beginning of sin among the angels and, why could not God save them, or bring to a quick repentance, or know ahead of time not to create certain angels. Some say evil leads to an appreciation of the constant good, and prevents conceit and arrogance. But if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then He does not need evil for any purpose, outside or inside Himself. God needs Satan? Can God prevent us from free willing bad choices? Because of free will, I do not think He can.
You are correct.... God does not need evil, and that's why he has purposed to do away with evil... permanently.
Psalm 37:9-11; Isaiah 65:17
The reason evil exist, is because of the free will choice to go in opposition to God, and God allowing it, so that everyone can choose for themselves their reward - life. or death. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20

This goes back to what I said earlier.
Forcing people to be what they don't want to be is non-productive.
It's better to let persons choose their own course, because at the end of the day, they will choose what they want - It's sooner, or later.

God is patient, and so, people get to change their mind. 2 Peter 3:9... which is what God is all for. Repentance.

Which gives, to some limit? Onmibenevolence, Omniscience, omnipotence?
Does the Bible teach that God is omnibenevolence?
Omnibenevolence is the property of possessing maximal goodness. Some philosophers, such as Epicurus, have argued that it is impossible, or at least improbable, for a deity to exhibit such a property alongside omniscience and omnipotence, as a result of the problem of evil. However, some philosophers, such as Alvin Plantinga, argue the plausibility of co-existence.​
The word "omnibenevolence" may be interpreted to mean perfectly just, all-loving, fully merciful, or any number of other qualities, depending on precisely how "good" is understood. As such, there is little agreement over how an "omnibenevolent" being would behave.​

It would therefore depend on one's interpretation, or use of the term, because God is good, yes, but God's justice requires removing the bad, and this is not good for many.
So, "good" in the eyes of some may not be good.
Hence, when making philosophical arguments, one needs to get their definitions clear, and have the correct understanding and proper perspective.


However, putting aside philosophical jargon... God is good, to the highest degree. The Bible says God is holy. There is no impurity in him. Leviticus 20:26; Joshua 24:19; 2 Chronicles 5:11; Psalm 99:9; Isaiah 6:3; 1 Peter 1:16

The quality or attribute of fully knowing all things - omniscience, is misunderstood by the majority of people.
The Bible does not paint God as one who knows everything (Please see Genesis 22:12), but one who has the ability to know everything... which is really the true meaning of omniscience.

Just as God has the ability to change the heart of all men, but chooses not to, God has the ability to know everything someone will do, but chooses not to.
This is why the prophet Habakkuk says of God, "Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil" Habakkuk 1:13
God chooses what to look at, and what not to look at.

Can we imagine God watching porn, for example?
Just as we can choose what we will look at, and turn away from looking at what is worthless, God, who is purer than we could ever be, does the same.

God refused to observe the Sodomites.
Genesis 18:20, 21
20 Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great. Because their sin is so grievous, 21 I will go down to see if their actions fully justify the outcry that has reached Me. If not, I will find out / get to know.”
The depravity was so great in Sodom, God did not look upon it.
He did not know all that was happening in that city.

This brings us to God's omnipotence.
To be all-powerful, one needs to be in control of every facet of their being.
God's power allows him to control what he does. So, God chooses what he wants to know, and God allows what he will.
Who can question him, or say to him, "what are you doing?"
Behold, he snatches away; who can turn him back? Who will say to him, ‘What are you doing?’ Job 9:12​

If God were not almighty, one who is, could question him.
However, there is none besides him.
 
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CoreyD

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I don’t believe in a devil per say (in the same way that I believe God didn’t actually have to come down to see if what he heard was altogether true) … even though an adversary plays its role in us …

Did God, before creating) have anything to measure sin by?
The Hebrew word chatta'ah, translated sin, is offence, and the Greek word hamartia translated sin, is offence, but emphasizes that it is due to missing the mark.
So, anything that misses the mark of God's standard of right, is an offense to God - sin.

Sin, thus, only enters the scene when something goes in opposition to God, and that is what the angel who got the names Satan (opposer), and Devil (slanderer) did.
He introduces things that were in opposition to God.

There is only light and darkness.
To go away from light, is to head into darkness.
Jesus spoke about light in this way. The scriptures themselves called Jesus light.

So, before God created, there was light, and darkness outside that light.
Would God consume the darkness? I believe that in time, darkness would be completely consumed, and light alone would remain.
 
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