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Don Trump Tilts at Windmills: Rescinds All Offshore Wind Energy Areas in the US; current leases up for review

Nithavela

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And yet both Germany and the US has less coal generation now than a decade ago. Coal is energy dense and has a low cost per BTU as compared to natural gas. Natural gas is on the pricey side, and once was mostly used for peaking stations for that reason and because the turbines can be spun up fairly quickly. It also doesn't have as much pollution issues as coal.

Energy density isn't something we cooked up. it's a real thing and it has an impact.

The most energy dense source of electricity isn't fossil fuels, it's a pellet of fuel grade uranium as big as the end of your thumb. It's the rough equivalent of 1 US ton of coal (call it 0.907 metric tonnes). Think of the amount of CO2 that would cut. 1 US ton of coal should produce about 3.67 US tons of CO2. So if the priority is reducing CO2 from electricity production, nuclear is the way to go. Somehow I doubt the critics of nuclear power are doing the bidding of fossil fuel producing companies.
You gloss over how much of an investment it is to create the infrastructure to extract that high energy density. When the cost for new power plants, decomissioning them a few decades down the line and the operating costs in the meantime (including repairs, upgrades and waste disposal) are factored in, nuclear power is far more expensive than renewables.
 
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Tuur

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You gloss over how much of an investment it is to create the infrastructure to extract that high energy density. When the cost for new power plants, decomissioning them a few decades down the line and the operating costs in the meantime (including repairs, upgrades and waste disposal) are factored in, nuclear power is far more expensive than renewables.
The cheapest option is to sit in the dark and shiver, Not something I recommend.
 
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Nithavela

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The cheapest option is to sit in the dark and shiver, Not something I recommend.
I don't even know what you are arguing here.
 
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Hans Blaster

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When I see the argument, it's usually used to justify subsidizing tech someone wants to see government funding for specific tech which may or may not be viable with installations that may or may not be shoddy.
I was merely pointing out that "renewable energy" was not the only energy that *IS* being subsidized.
Never said otherwise. The point was it didn't take a government subsidy to shift from burning wood to burning fossil fuels to shifting from external to internal combustion engines. There is one that I'm waiting to see if someone brings up.
There certainly were government assistance on the extraction of those fossil fuels from the granting of exclusive property rights to plots of land from which oil or coal could be removed. There were also limits to how much wood was available for fuel that meant expansion of the industrial economy through the availability of previously unavailable fuel.

Since you are talking about ICEs perhaps we should talk about the environment when they took over. ICE cars were at first novelties, but even when mass production took off we didn't have highways adequate for interstate travel. (The unified system of national highways is only 100 years old. Mass produced cars are 120 years old.) Before cars commutes like most of us in "suburbia" were impossible. The long distance commuters of the time lived in "streetcar suburbs". (You'll never guess how they traveled downtown.) The primary mode of long-distance travel was railroads. Early long-distance road trips with ICE cars were "adventures" that got written up in papers. (A situation not that long ago for cross-country electric car road trippers.) Road quality and the availability of fuel were serious issues. Once the advantage of personal, motorized transport became obvious for local, regional, and even national travel, a network of roads was built specifically for ICE cars, and fuel stations and other services came without added incentives.

Today's built environment is one that has evolved to use the ICE car. This is the environment that electric cars must compete in. Unlike ICE cars versus horses where the advantages of a car were obvious if the vehicle and fuel were reliable, the electric car advantages to the owner are not so stark. (There are nice things like not going to gas stations for regular commuting travel, etc.) The benefits accrue mostly indirectly and to society, that means that society is going to have to help things along.

Marking POWs in front of columns is "deserved?" Forcibly abducting civilians and shipping them away from their homes is deserved?

Kipling never did such. Yet Kipling is debased.
1865 had a severe shortage of treason convictions and subsequent hangings. (though I am unfamiliar with these 'atrocities' you refer to.)

Where are we going? We're already there. Surplus electricity at night from conventional generation only holds for certain times of the year. It's seasonal. I know because I used to have to keep up with it for work.
 
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mark46

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There is no longer a need for federal subsidies for solar and wind programs. They are now the most economic sources of energy.

There is also no need for federal subsidies for oil.
=================
THE ACTUAL NEEDS
1) reduced regulation on mining and the building of power plants
2) support of increases to transmission service
3) support of small nuclear plants
4) and yes, the support for companies to find more sources of natural gas, the production of LNG, and the export of LNG (e.g to India)
5) support of fast-track regulations that allow AI plants to build on-site power plants for their own use.
6) support of research on fusion
7) support of research on various carbon capture and mitigation efforts (WON'T HAPPEN UNDER TRUMP)
=========
Oil and coal plants will phase out as they are less and less economic.
 
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Nithavela

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There is no longer a need for federal subsidies for solar and wind programs. They are now the most economic sources of energy.

There is also no need for federal subsidies for oil.
=================
THE ACTUAL NEEDS
1) reduced regulation on mining and the building of power plants.
2) support of increase transmission service
3) support of small nuclear plants
4) and yes, the support for companies to find more sources of natural gas, the production of LNG, and the export of LNG (e.g to India)
5) support of fast-track regulations that allow AI plants to build on-site power plants for their own use.
6) support of research on fusion.
7) support of research on various carbon capture and mitigation efforts (WON'T HAPPEN UNDER TRUMP)
=========
Oil and coal plants will phase out as they are less and less economic.
It seems like conservative governments are trying their level best to prop up less economic sources of energy.
 
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Fantine

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You gloss over how much of an investment it is to create the infrastructure to extract that high energy density. When the cost for new power plants, decomissioning them a few decades down the line and the operating costs in the meantime (including repairs, upgrades and waste disposal) are factored in, nuclear power is far more expensive than renewables.
No problem. Republicans are getting rid of those "burdensome regulations." Shudder.
And we thought the widespread measles and whooping cough outbreaks were all we had to worry about!
 
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Desk trauma

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It seems like conservative governments are trying their level best to prop up less economic sources of energy.
The religious like devotion to coal is truly odd.
 
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MotoToTheMax

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The religious like devotion to coal is truly odd.
hq720.jpg


LIBS OWNED. People who roll coal should lose all hand/foot dominance in daily life.
 
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Nithavela

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The religious like devotion to coal is truly odd.
It harkens back to a better time, when the lower classes knew their place, working in twelve hour shifts from the age of ten.
 
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Tuur

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I don't even know what you are arguing here
It's not obvious? If the object is the cheapest solution, shivering in the dark is the cheapest of all. If the object is a reliable source of power, you have to do certain things., based on the power source, to provide. it. That's more expensive that shivering in the dark, but much more comfortable. Wind and solar, especially if you're going to have some sort of power storage, isn't going to be the cheapest option. Building wind and solar without storage is less expensive than building it with storage, but by it's very nature it's an unreliable power source.

Whether anyone believes me on this or not, it doesn't change what is.

Now, if the criteria is non-CO2 electricity production, the most reliable is hydro, nuclear, and geothermal. Wind and solar are less reliable, again based on the nature of the power source. So is tidal energy. If you want to use that to replace coal and natural gas generation, you're going to have to have that energy storage. Otherwise, you're going to have to burn something to take up the slack when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.
 
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Tuur

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There is no longer a need for federal subsidies for solar and wind programs. They are now the most economic sources of energy.
Grins and sits back to watch the fun.

Actually, need to be looking into off-grid plans.
 
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Tuur

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1865 had a severe shortage of treason convictions and subsequent hangings. (though I am unfamiliar with these 'atrocities' you refer to.)
No surprise there. They are not, ah, well publicized in histories, though you can find references to Sherman marching POWs in front of his columns. The same for the Roswell factory workers. Also not publicized much is how his solders urged slaves they met to leave, but the now emancipated slaves had nowhere to go, and so tagged along with Sherman's columns, though he hated it because it hampered his operations.

Today's built environment is one that has evolved to use the ICE car. This is the environment that electric cars must compete in. Unlike ICE cars versus horses where the advantages of a car were obvious if the vehicle and fuel were reliable, the electric car advantages to the owner are not so stark. (There are nice things like not going to gas stations for regular commuting travel, etc.) The benefits accrue mostly indirectly and to society, that means that society is going to have to help things along.
Today's environment began with electric and steam powered cars. At one time a land speed record was held by an electric car. Steam cars had a latency issue. Stanley Steamer (the car, not the cleaning service) owners would sometimes like to fire up their cars, walk a few paces ahead, call it, and the car seemingly hear it and coming to them. That's how long it took to build up enough steam to move forward.

On roads: Rural areas tend to have dirt roads. This was the nature of things from coast to coast really until the post WWII years. Roads were important, though then, as now, quality varied from location to location. I know of some old dirt roads that had ditching and have seen some of the old wooden bridges where you just had one lane, with two parallel lines of boards for your tires. Last years heard a crew talking about an out-of-the-way place in my old neck of the woods, and when I learned it was now loose gravel, it struck me funny because I've been down it when it was mud, sand, and slick clay. Gravel roads? That's riding in style.

Oh: Should mention most of my involvement here isn't just history. From time to time have had to look for easements and the question of what came first, the road or the power line. In one case, it was the power line; in another, the road. You win some, you lose some. Anyway, property records have land acquisitions for road paving, so if someone takes the time to look, they can find when a road was paved. For most in our area, it was post WWII. A grandfather got a job once helping to pave a road (concrete, not asphalt), and that was prior to WWII, but was also considered a major route. For where I grew up, it was all dirt roads until the 1950s.

Yes, railroads was used for long-distance travel, the term "long-distance" varying from location to location. But railroads aren't everywhere. Neither were the steamboats they replaced on all but rivers like the Mississippi. You needed descent roads initially for reliable mail (seriously - going back to late 18th and early 19th Centuries here) and for moving goods via wagon. Like many things, the term "descent" is relative. If you want some documentation, there's what happened to Eisenhower when he led a convoy across country in 1919.

When I read of electric car advantages, I had to grin. Today I've driven further than what you said you drive in a week, and will likely have to drive some more before it's over. If all someone is going to do is putter around town, then it might be viable if the power stays on. Here? Not so much, and we're not even talking about distances that are common out West. Other than the Telsa Cybertruck I saw last year and a Ford Lightning I saw this year, the only electric vehicles I've seen locally are electric scooters in towns and what looks like an electric two-wheel skateboard with handles. That makes sense, since a non-electric is pretty much needed between the towns, and the electric scooters are a fun and viable option, like the old electric golf carts (which were never considered road-rated in most places, but were still used).
 
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Tuur

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NH has off-grid plans for companies. Of course, there is no grid backup.
It seems that you're going to see more off-grid construction where it costs a lot to run electricity. Where it's relatively easy to build grid power, not so much.

The old Mother Earth News articles on off-grid systems were interesting, such as trying to get a true sine wave at 60 Hz for 120/240v AC vs wring everything to use RV lights and appliances.
 
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Lukaris

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It's not obvious? If the object is the cheapest solution, shivering in the dark is the cheapest of all. If the object is a reliable source of power, you have to do certain things., based on the power source, to provide. it. That's more expensive that shivering in the dark, but much more comfortable. Wind and solar, especially if you're going to have some sort of power storage, isn't going to be the cheapest option. Building wind and solar without storage is less expensive than building it with storage, but by it's very nature it's an unreliable power source.

Whether anyone believes me on this or not, it doesn't change what is.

Now, if the criteria is non-CO2 electricity production, the most reliable is hydro, nuclear, and geothermal. Wind and solar are less reliable, again based on the nature of the power source. So is tidal energy. If you want to use that to replace coal and natural gas generation, you're going to have to have that energy storage. Otherwise, you're going to have to burn something to take up the slack when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.
If I understand what you are saying here it would seem to be exemplified by a situation in the Netherlands in which solar & wind energy is overwhelming their power grid.



( about the middle of the article)Per the BBC:


The problem is "grid congestion", says Kees-Jan Rameau, chief executive of Dutch energy producer and supplier Eneco, 70% of whose electricity generation is now solar and wind.

Grid congestion is like a traffic jam on the power grid. It's caused by either too much power demand in a certain area, or too much power supply put onto the grid, more than the grid can handle."

He explains that the problem is that the grid "was designed in the days when we had just a few very large, mainly gas-fired power plants".

So we built a grid with very big power lines close to those power plants, and increasingly smaller power lines as you got more towards the households.

Nowadays we're switching to renewables, and that means there's a lot of power being injected into the grid in the outskirts of the network where there are only relatively small power lines."

And these small power lines are struggling to cope with all the electricity coming in from wind turbines and solar panels scattered around the country.


Netherlands' renewables drive putting pressure on its power grid
 
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Hans Blaster

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The religious like devotion to coal is truly odd.
It's for the voters. If they didn't they would loose thousands of voters in deep red states.
 
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Hans Blaster

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No surprise there. They are not, ah, well publicized in histories, though you can find references to Sherman marching POWs in front of his columns.
This is ringing familiar. I believe the sesech were mining the roads or something on the way to Savannah. Sherman tried to cure them of that tactic.
The same for the Roswell factory workers.
Looked it up. Was making war materiel. Burnt down. Army of the Tennessee went through there. I used to live 2 km from there.
Also not publicized much is how his solders urged slaves they met to leave, but the now emancipated slaves had nowhere to go, and so tagged along with Sherman's columns, though he hated it because it hampered his operations.
Soldiers were doing the right thing. Sherman didn't have the logistics to support them. Not sure what the atrocity is here.
 
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Tuur

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If I understand what you are saying here it would seem to be exemplified by a situation in the Netherlands in which solar & wind energy is overwhelming their power grid.



( about the middle of the article)Per the BBC:


The problem is "grid congestion", says Kees-Jan Rameau, chief executive of Dutch energy producer and supplier Eneco, 70% of whose electricity generation is now solar and wind.

Grid congestion is like a traffic jam on the power grid. It's caused by either too much power demand in a certain area, or too much power supply put onto the grid, more than the grid can handle."

He explains that the problem is that the grid "was designed in the days when we had just a few very large, mainly gas-fired power plants".

So we built a grid with very big power lines close to those power plants, and increasingly smaller power lines as you got more towards the households.

Nowadays we're switching to renewables, and that means there's a lot of power being injected into the grid in the outskirts of the network where there are only relatively small power lines."

And these small power lines are struggling to cope with all the electricity coming in from wind turbines and solar panels scattered around the country.


Netherlands' renewables drive putting pressure on its power grid
Wouldn't call it congestion. It's more that the conductor isn't rated for the amps (ampacity). Ampacity can vary with the air temperature and temperature of the wire. 4/0 ACSR is a nice-sized conductor for distribution and has an ampacity of 327 amps. 4 ACSR is a common distribution conductor and has an ampacity of 140 amps. 336 MCM ACSR is a largish conductor and has an ampacity of 529 amps (Note: I'm looking this up).

The reason conductors get smaller the further you get from a substation is that the load decreases because there are fewer customers between there and the end of the line. Not only can it handle the amps, but also the voltage drops. In North America, where distribution is usually based on Wye, you typically go from three to two to single phase (I think the UK and Ireland use Delta distribution; don't know about the rest of Europe).

Now let's say someone puts generation out on distribution. Whether it's wind, solar, diesel, or whatever doesn't matter. The closest customers will be drawing from that source. Imagine a "T" connection, with few customers on one side of the "T" but lots of customers on the other side. The side with lots of customers is going to be pulling more amps through the conductor than was planned for. But that's due to connected load, not available generation capacity. It's like a transformer rated to supply power to an entire house, but only a nightlight is plugged it. It can supply much more amps than is used; the determining factor for the amps on the conductor is the load.

This is why, if someone is putting in a lot of solar, or a lot of wind mills, they're going to need to be near a transmission line. Stepping up voltage lowers the amps, and adding it to the mix might still be somewhat problematic, but not as problematic as on the end of a single-phase distribution powerline.

To handle any sort of distributed generation on distribution, you have to size conductor based on the load not just "downstream," but "upstream" as well. So if you knew the distributed generation would supply no more than the load of a circuit coming out of a substation, that it would be going at the end of the line, and you already had 336 MCM ACSR near the substation, you'll probably end up running 336 MCM ACSR all the way out to the end.
 
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Tuur

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This is ringing familiar. I believe the sesech were mining the roads or something on the way to Savannah. Sherman tried to cure them of that tactic.
Today it's called using human shields.

Looked it up. Was making war materiel. Burnt down. Army of the Tennessee went through there. I used to live 2 km from there.
Burning it down wasn't the problem; shipping civilians, mostly women, against their will is. It's why there's not much complaint about the soldiers heating track rails and bending them around trees; that was to prevent it's use to transport material and troops, and bending the rail prevented simply connecting it back together.

Soldiers were doing the right thing. Sherman didn't have the logistics to support them. Not sure what the atrocity is here.
Oh? Telling them to leave without so much as a suggestion of where they could go and what they would do? The only time Sherman tried to address it was out near Savannah, and that led to the rumor of "40 acres and a mule." It was later determined that Sherman had exceeded his authority.

To see the problem, consider what happened to the Union officer Jeff Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) at Ebenezer Creek. His unit was crossing a pontoon bridge and a large number of emancipated slaves were following when the received word that Joe Wheeler was bearing down on them. He got his unit across and, to protect them, cut loose one side of the bridge and pulled it in to their side of the shore. With no place to go and Confederate calvary bearing down, the former slaves panicked. Many died trying to cross. Davis' first responsibility was to his mission, but that's not how the Northern press saw it. He already wasn't the most popular officer in the Union Army, and Ebenezer Creek didn't help his career much.

So it was that when I learned that the first US military governor of the Alaska Territory was Jeff Davis, I couldn't help but wonder if what happened at Ebenezer Creek was why he was sent to administer "Steward's Folly:" A command as far away from the rest of the army as possible.

None of this would have happened had the slaves not been encouraged to leave. Not to remain slaves, but to at least come to an understanding that they were no longer slaves and would be compensated for their labor - as apparently one farmer offered to do. His former slave replied they had to leave because they were told to do so. I can't help but wonder how many who did as the soldiers urged and left ended up coming back simply because there was no where else to go.
 
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