Why do people hate ICE...

[bèlla]

Because you've been mischaracterizing my posts and arguing with me about them.

Good for you, I guess? My point still stands though.

I’m not mischaracterizing your posts. I posted a video you felt inclined to warn me about more than once. All you can do is share your opinion. You can’t make anyone agree and you’re blowing this out of proportion. It’s just a video. Gosh.

~bella

 

[camille70]

Documents Allege a Federal Agent at Portland ICE Threatened to Shoot an Ambulance Driver

Feds delayed medics who had come to pick up an injured protester. Then, according to confidential incident reports, the agents became aggressive.

Documents Allege a Federal Agent at Portland ICE Threatened to Shoot an Ambulance Driver

Feds delayed medics who had come to pick up an injured protester. Then, according to confidential incident reports, the agents became aggressive.

www.wweek.com

 

[ThatRobGuy]

When they are just doing their job?

Well it seems I come across examples of this everyday...just crossed another one.

WATCH: ICE Sued After Videos Capture Pastor Shot With ‘Chemical Pellets’ at Peaceful Protest

I bet that pastor was attacking them or someth....
https://www.reddit.com/r/illinois/s/09n0juVcj3


If there are people having trouble understanding why people dislike how iCE is doing their work, I'm hoping folks will be willing to share some examples. I'll do my bit when I can.

I think we have to draw a clear line between

"people who hate them because of these incidents where they behaved unprofessionally and/or over-aggressively"
vs
"people who would still hate them anyway, even if they conducted their duties as professionally as humanly possible"


I think we have some of both in the US.

For the people in the latter category, while they may regularly cite instances of the former, their primary objections are to the mission and purpose of the agency itself, so those incidents are merely accessories they use to bolster their pre-existing argument of "we need to abolish ICE"


You can have a reasonable conversation about meaningful reforms with the former, trying to find some sort of middle ground with the latter will be a fool's errand.

 

[rambot]

I suspect some of the antipathy towards ICE is the shock of actual enforcement of immigration law by ICE, especially in cities where for many years or decades ICE enforcement was so negligible as to be invisible and unheard of in those cities.

Strange. Because Obamas numbers were actually quite high. So that doesn't make sense

Indeed, LA County Mayor said ICE “was not present” and “was not present for so long.” They simply were accustomed to minimal to invisible existence of ICE for a long time.

Hmmm. I wonder if it was morning how they managed to carry out thwir activities then. In as much as they were never noticed but did their work without trying to intimidate and scare. Because there are certainly stats of neighbouring counties that show there was ice activity over the last few decades.

 

[camille70]

Hundreds Could Be Freed From ICE Custody After Warrantless Arrest Ruling

Immigration attorneys said they have already identified more than 200 arrests that potentially violate the consent decree. However, they said those 200 arrests are likely “just the tip of the iceberg.”

Hundreds Could Be Freed From ICE Custody After Warrantless Arrest Ruling

Immigration attorneys said they have already identified more than 200 arrests that potentially violate the consent decree. However, they said those 200 arrests are likely "just the tip of the iceberg."

blockclubchicago.org

More than 1,000 people have been arrested in the Chicago area since the Department of Homeland Security launched Operation Midways Blitz at the start of September. Fleming said one of the strategies ICE has been deploying over the past few weeks has been to “go out with a small list of targets and then use that as a pretext to then sweep up everyone else that they come in contact with.”

“We suspect that the majority of immigration arrests that have taken place in Chicago in the last month are in violation of this order,” attorney Keren Zwick with the National Immigration Justice Center told Block Club.

While Fleming said the ruling will not affect people who have already been deported, he said his office will be communicating with advocates who are working with people currently to ensure they know about the ruling.

 

[NotreDame]

Hmmm. I wonder if it was morning how they managed to carry out thwir activities then. In as much as they were never noticed but did their work without trying to intimidate and scare. Because there are certainly stats of neighbouring counties that show there was ice activity over the last few decades.

So the bolded supports my position, “neighboring counties” doesn’t reveal anything of other counties.

Strange. Because Obamas numbers were actually quite high. So that doesn't make sense

^^^^Has absolutely not germane to my comment of, “I suspect some of the antipathy towards ICE is the shock of actual enforcement of immigration law by ICE, especially in cities where for many years or decades ICE enforcement was so negligible as to be invisible and unheard of in those cities.”

I’ll proceed now and address your faulty assumption by stating Obama’s “numbers were actually quite high” can logically co-exist with my statement “I suspect some of the antipathy towards ICE is the shock of actual enforcement of immigration law by ICE, especially in cities where for many years or decades ICE enforcement was so negligible as to be invisible and unheard of in those cities.”

Obama’s “quite high” numbers aren’t contradictory to my bolded statement, neither are the two inconsistent.

Make comment makes perfect sense when one comprehends Obama’s “quite high” numbers weren’t predominantly and/or substantially from specific areas. It’s your confusing high numbers and by bolded comments as mutually exclusive “that doesn’t make sense.”

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Strange. Because Obamas numbers were actually quite high. So that doesn't make sense

They were, so if people are suggesting that Obama was weak on immigration in that aspect, they'd be wrong. (Biden's admin is another story)

At the risk of sounding cynical...
I think the superficial answer is the accurate one on this.

An old white guy (perceived as having racist views on extraneous issues) deporting non-white people elicits a different reaction from some folks than if a younger non-white guy (perceived to have more progressive values) deports non-white people.

Were abuses of power and unprofessional conduct from agents happening during the raids and round-ups that happened under Obama? Almost certainly. But they would've been much less visible, as the prevalence of the "HD video recording device in everyone's pocket" was much lower back then, so you didn't have a hundred people standing around filming every interaction and uploading it to where millions of people could see it.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

(Biden's admin is another story)

Is it though?

A heck of a lot more people were deported under Biden than under Obama (or Trump).

At the risk of sounding cynical...
I think the superficial answer is the accurate one on this.

An old white guy (perceived as having racist views on extraneous issues) deporting non-white people elicits a different reaction from some folks than if a younger non-white guy (perceived to have more progressive values) deports non-white people.

Were abuses of power and unprofessional conduct from agents happening during the raids and round-ups that happened under Obama? Almost certainly. But they would've been much less visible, as the prevalence of the "HD video recording device in everyone's pocket" was much lower back then, so you didn't have a hundred people standing around filming every interaction and uploading it to where millions of people could see it.

This theory falls apart in the light of the above data. It comes down to rhetoric and the methods employed by ICE.

 

[camille70]

Teacher claims ICE agents used tear gas near Chicago elementary school

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Is it though?
View attachment 371592

A heck of a lot more people were deported under Biden than under Obama (or Trump).

This theory falls apart in the light of the above data. It comes down to rhetoric and the methods employed by ICE.

It would appear that Biden's are mostly under the "covid emergency" category...

"At the border" and "away from the border" appear to be far lower. Those would be the much more visible types of apprehensions people are upset about, correct?

As far as public visibility (and people seeing it on social media), the covid related ones would be far less visible I would think.

My reason for thinking that is because the kind of people who would want to watchdog ICE and alert the pubic to their potential misdeeds would be the same kind of people who would've been more inclined to be staying home and socially distancing during covid, fair to say? Also compounded by the fact that the social justice activists had a different law enforcement related social awareness endeavor they were focused on.


Reader's digest version:
Biden's deportations were less visible/less scrutinized due to
- It was done in the name of covid (any draconian measures done in the name of covid were embraced by progressives)
- Progressives were far more likely to be staying at home to avoid viral exposure, and the ones who weren't, were protesting Local PD abuses in the wake of the George Floyd killing

So ICE-related matters took a back seat

 

[rambot]

So the bolded supports my position, “neighboring counties” doesn’t reveal anything of other counties.


^^^^Has absolutely not germane to my comment of, “I suspect some of the antipathy towards ICE is the shock of actual enforcement of immigration law by ICE, especially in cities where for many years or decades ICE enforcement was so negligible as to be invisible and unheard of in those cities.”

I’ll proceed now and address your faulty assumption by stating Obama’s “numbers were actually quite high” can logically co-exist with my statement “I suspect some of the antipathy towards ICE is the shock of actual enforcement of immigration law by ICE, especially in cities where for many years or decades ICE enforcement was so negligible as to be invisible and unheard of in those cities.”

Obama’s “quite high” numbers aren’t contradictory to my bolded statement, neither are the two inconsistent.

Make comment makes perfect sense when one comprehends Obama’s “quite high” numbers weren’t predominantly and/or substantially from specific areas. It’s your confusing high numbers and by bolded comments as mutually exclusive “that doesn’t make sense.”

You're welcome to show evidence of that.


As a sidebar, "actual enforcement", is not the shocking thing. How the enforcement are being carried out kinda is.

 

[rambot]

Were abuses of power and unprofessional conduct from agents happening during the raids and round-ups that happened under Obama? Almost certainly. But they would've been much less visible, as the prevalence of the "HD video recording device in everyone's pocket" was much lower back then, so you didn't have a hundred people standing around filming every interaction and uploading it to where millions of people could see it.

"almost certainly" he says....with 0 evidence.


Now you have Miller screaming at his underlings to BE awful as they do their work. Look at the ads they've created to try to entice folks to work for ice

What is with the attempts to excuse this admins behaviour by baselessly suggesting this has happenned before just like this.

This admin is simply not like any other in terms of their bruttishness and that is a design.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

"almost certainly" he says....with 0 evidence.

If there wasn't, that would make the ICE agency under Obama literally only law enforcement agency in the country that didn't have cases of abuse of power or complaints about aggressive behavior.

But as far as the "0 evidence" thing...


A 2013 ACLU report described harsh detention conditions, including solitary confinement, physical mistreatment, and medical neglect.

2011–2013: Lawsuits in California and New York alleged ICE agents broke into homes without warrants and used physical force during arrests.

• Numerous ICE detention facilities under Obama drew criticism.
• Reports included:
  • Deaths in custody due to medical neglect.
  • Sexual abuse allegations.
  • Retaliation against detainees who complained.

...but as I noted, the use of independent cell phone journalism (that gets viewed by millions of people a few hours later) wasn't nearly as prevalent back then.

 

[Always in His Presence]

When they are just doing their job?

Well it seems I come across examples of this everyday...just crossed another one.

WATCH: ICE Sued After Videos Capture Pastor Shot With ‘Chemical Pellets’ at Peaceful Protest

I bet that pastor was attacking them or someth....
https://www.reddit.com/r/illinois/s/09n0juVcj3


If there are people having trouble understanding why people dislike how iCE is doing their work, I'm hoping folks will be willing to share some examples. I'll do my bit when I can.

Who exactly hates ICE?

The people who are here illegally?

The small but very vocal and sometimes violent group of people who have taken up for criminals.

Out of 350,000,000 citizen, how many actually HATE ICE officers?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

It would appear that Biden's are mostly under the "covid emergency" category...

When that was an option, sure. If you've been handed a tool for the job that's easier to use, why not make use of it? Trump's "at the border" and "away from the border" numbers also plummeted for the few months that he had that tool at his disposal in 2020

"At the border" and "away from the border" appear to be far lower.

Not once the COVID emergency option (Title 42) was sunsetted. That part at the end of the graph was still Biden, who was President through the whole of 2024.

"Away from the border" was lower for Biden, no question about that, but that's a small component of deportations under any administration, and I think it reflects the philosophy of generally not aggressively pursuing people who are contributing members of society, even if they're not here legally.

Those would be the much more visible types of apprehensions people are upset about, correct?

As far as public visibility (and people seeing it on social media), the covid related ones would be far less visible I would think.

This would fall under the "methods" part of my post.

My reason for thinking that is because the kind of people who would want to watchdog ICE and alert the pubic to their potential misdeeds would be the same kind of people who would've been more inclined to be staying home and socially distancing during covid, fair to say? Also compounded by the fact that the social justice activists had a different law enforcement related social awareness endeavor they were focused on.


Reader's digest version:
Biden's deportations were less visible/less scrutinized due to
- It was done in the name of covid (any draconian measures done in the name of covid were embraced by progressives)
- Progressives were far more likely to be staying at home to avoid viral exposure, and the ones who weren't, were protesting Local PD abuses in the wake of the George Floyd killing

So ICE-related matters took a back seat

This was really only relevant for 2020/2021. Trump was still President in 2020. By 2022/2023 - and certainly by 2024 - concerns about COVID exposure were falling off, and as I pointed out, the COVID emergency provisions expired in 2023 (and were, in fact, something that the left did voice concern over). And the George Floyd protests were pretty well wrapped up by the end of 2021, if not sooner.

I'd also note that there weren't significant protests against ICE during Trump's first term either. So, what changed? Trump is still an old white dude, but he and his circle have ramped up their rhetoric, and ICE has employed increasingly draconian and disturbing tactics in highly visible ways.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

This was really only relevant for 2020/2021. Trump was still President in 2020. By 2022/2023 - and certainly by 2024 - concerns about COVID exposure were falling off, and as I pointed out, the COVID emergency provisions expired in 2023 (and were, in fact, something that the left did voice concern over). And the George Floyd protests were pretty well wrapped up by the end of 2021, if not sooner.

I'd also note that there weren't significant protests against ICE during Trump's first term either. So, what changed? Trump is still an old white dude, but he and his circle have ramped up their rhetoric, and ICE has employed increasingly draconian and disturbing tactics in highly visible ways.

Maybe for the first part (the social distancing and staying home during covid), but I still remember a lot of the "law enforcement excessive force" activism seemed to still be more heavily centered around Local PDs well into 2022 and 2023.

While the George Floyd specificity may have fizzled out by end of 2021, the BLM movement was still going pretty strong well into 2023, and that tended to focus more on local/domestic policing than it did federal agencies.


Activism and "awareness campaigning" tends to be more heavily concentrated on zeroing in on the worst offenses from whoever the highest ranking entities are from the other party.


So for instance, when Biden was president, a lot of the focus and activism was centered around the things Republican governors were doing. (Ron DeSantis was heavily baked into the 24 hour news cycle as I'm sure you remember. Florida news became national news, and there was extensive coverage and backlash to every bill he signed from left-leaning activists)

Once Trump got settled back into the oval office -- I can't tell you the last time I've seen a Ron DeSantis headline from any of the left leaning outlets, or have seen any of my left-leaning friends post about him with the exception of cases where their paths overlap.


The same is true when the roles are reversed as well. Now that the republicans have got their guy in the big chair, when they are out objecting to "big government", you don't hear much about federal overreach anymore. Their ire tends to be more focused on Democratic governors and mayors.


For progressives to "go hard" on anything a Democratic president is doing with regards to immigration, the country would have to be devoid of any other "high value political targets"

 

[RocksInMyHead]

For progressives to "go hard" on anything a Democratic president is doing with regards to immigration, the country would have to be devoid of any other "high value political targets"

Maybe. But that's a pretty long way from your original argument now, which was:

At the risk of sounding cynical...
I think the superficial answer is the accurate one on this.

An old white guy (perceived as having racist views on extraneous issues) deporting non-white people elicits a different reaction from some folks than if a younger non-white guy (perceived to have more progressive values) deports non-white people.

I agree that left-leaning people are less likely to protest things done by left-leaning administrations (just like right-leaning people are less likely to protest actions by right-leaning administrations). But the lack of any significant protests against Trump's immigration policies during his first administration (which were more or less identical to Obama's) makes it pretty clear that the problem isn't just Trump. And if we look at what Trump and his officials are saying, and what ICE is doing, there are some obvious differences to how things were done in 2017-2020 that I think make for a far simpler explanation for the current vitriol.

 

[NxNW]

To be more specific; the radical left hates ICE. And and they crank out gobs of misinformation propaganda aginst them.

Here's one right now! Clearly MS-13, from the looks of her.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I agree that left-leaning people are less likely to protest things done by left-leaning administrations (just like right-leaning people are less likely to protest actions by right-leaning administrations). But the lack of any significant protests against Trump's immigration policies during his first administration (which were more or less identical to Obama's) makes it pretty clear that the problem isn't just Trump. And if we look at what Trump and his officials are saying, and what ICE is doing, there are some obvious differences to how things were done in 2017-2020 that I think make for a far simpler explanation for the current vitriol.

The part I bolded would be a bit of a stretch.

I can't be the only one who remembers all the bickering and protesting about "The Wall", family separation at the border, "kids in cages" photo ops, and his executive order that progressives branded as the "Muslim Ban"

And some of those protests were pretty noteworthy in size.

30,000 New Yorkers March to End Refugee & Muslim Ban - NYC, Long Island, New York State | New York Immigration Coalition - Revision

At least 30,000 New Yorkers - including immigrants, refugees, Muslims and allies - gathered in Battery Park City across from the Statue of Liberty to demand that Trump rescind his recent executive orders and end all hateful policies. You can see photos here. They then marched to Foley Square...

www.nyic.org

Tens of thousands rallied for Families Belong Together

SAN FRANCISCO – An estimated 20,000 demonstrators gathered at City Hall in San Francisco June 30 for a massive Families Belong Together march and rally, demanding an end to the Trump administration’s harsh policies of family separation and detention and its failure to reunite thousands of famili...

www.peoplesworld.org

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/07/03/who-came-out-in-the-brutal-heat-to-the-families-belong-together-march-heres-our-data/

WaPo estimates that 400,000 people participated in those various protests about his first-term immigration policies.

What threshold are we using to quantify "significant"?

 

[BPPLEE]

Here's one right now! Clearly MS-13, from the looks of her.

View attachment 371630

The picture of an 8-year-old handcuffed by ICE is fake and was created using artificial intelligence
. It was generated by a user of Grok, an AI creation tool.
Fact-checkers identified the following details indicating the image was AI-generated:

• The girl's left shoulder and the ICE agent's ear appear distorted.
• The fabric textures and background details are overly stylized or inconsistent.
• The image was not published by any reputable news outlet.

The user who created the image told the fact-checking site Snopes that their prompt was: "generate an image of Police ICE agents aggressively dragging Latino children crying out of a 2nd grade classroom".
Source: Google