Emergency abortion denials by Catholic hospitals put woman in danger, after her water broke at 17 weeks, lawsuit claims

[linux.poet]

The government isn’t responsible for supporting christian causes. If they want to rest on their beliefs they need to raise the money. There’s millions of believers. They have more than enough to draw from.

I would think that said millions of believers aren't going to fund a policy that leaves a woman with a non-viable 17-week miscarriage to die of sepsis. If the only reason to change the funding is to dodge a law that's meant to save a woman's life, I can't say that I'm going to support that.

We both know that there are ways to put a marketing spin on the situation to sweep the truth under the rug, but the truth comes out eventually and the wise will know. We're not glorifying God by taking money away from other things to fund evading the law.

 

[stevevw]

The government isn’t responsible for supporting christian causes. If they want to rest on their beliefs they need to raise the money. There’s millions of believers. They have more than enough to draw from.

I don't mean actively supporting Christian organisations. But rather allow them the same rights as other groups in society who also hold worldview beliefs. Take an even hand to all groups who hold different beliefs as far as allowing them to practice their beliefs in the public square.

ie not say that because a religious groups holds to a belief that abortion or SSM is wrong and want to open up facilities accordingly. They should recieve government funding regardless of their belief. Because all beliefs are suppose to be able to practice their beliefs in the public square.

The state represents government interests foremost not religion.

This is the problem. There is no such State that is neutral when it comes to religious type beliefs. The ontological position that abortion or SSM is ok is a belief in itself.

So if the State endorces such a belief over the other beliefs that say abortion is not ok they are descriminating against the beliefs of those who say abortion is wrong. The State wins and gets to enforce this metaphysical belief that is not backed by the science or fact over others.

They need some tea drinking southerners to educate them on the principle. You’ve forgotten your place. You’re a beggar seeking funding like the rest. Don’t allow your religion to confound you. For a people supposedly endowed with the Holy Spirit you function a lot like sinners.

That’s what happens when you seek the devil’s kitty for funds. Where’s your followers gifted in leadership and administration? They’re going to pull the rug eventually.

Yes you have to play by their rules or else.

How can you believe in Christ and post that? Stop making excuses for their laziness and omission of creativity.

Can you elaborate. I am not sure whether you are jesting or not lol.

It doesn’t matter what they do. You have more than a billion followers to draw from. Why haven’t you done that?

I am speaking about truth and justice, fairness. I am taking secular societies own norms and morals and ideology and using their own standards to hold them to account. Their own ideology claims that all beliefs are equal and allowed to be expressed in society without bias or favour.

That includes any belief that is ideological and claiming an ontological reality for society. Because the denial or relegatio of particular beliefs is itself based on a belief. A belief that all beliefs can co exist neutrally. A belief that there is no truth of belief and moral laws.

That by the very nature of humans we use beliefs as the basis for how society should be ordered and its not about equality but an ideological beliefs about whether or not there is a God or not. So when the world or State actor who stand on the worldly ideologies that are rejecting God rule they are actually enforcing their belief and not whata is just, right and fair based on truth or fact.

I am not sure you get my point. Maybe I am bad at explaining things.

More excuses.

You don't get what I am saying then. I tend to do this in speaking the third parties in first persons lol. I am not advocating one side or religious freedom that it can breach what is a fundemental truth principle even for Christians that we care for those in need when presenting as a medical emergency. Forget about ethics its a medical emergency that requires intervention fullstop.

Thats one thing. Thats the truth of the matter and fact supported by commonsense health. That pain, complications with pregnacy (water broke) red flag that intervention is required right away. As the science has already told us thats bad medical situation.

I was pointing out the bigger picture. There is obvious moral outrage and fair enough. But I was pointing out in the bigger picture that we can find examples where a belief rather than fact or truth the basis for policy and laws that are unfair and unhealthy and even dangerous to health.

This relates to the idea that all beliefs should be considered for the basis of policy and law so long as they also conform with the facts and truth of the matter. Not that is is an excuse for the specific example. But that we should be fair and consistent with matters of health as to what is best even if it goes against different ideological groups beliefs.

That is the real problem. The inconsistency and ambiguity about what is best which is distorted by ideological beliefs one way or the other.

Your answers largely reflect the reason I will never support christian organizations. You provided a litany of excuses and finger pointing which removed the responsibility from where it belongs. They’re a disgrace to the Most High.

Then your misunderstanding what I say. As I said I am not disputing or excusing the specific example. Fact is fact.

We’re accountable for our gifts and talents. Irrespective of the world or circumstance you’re expected to perform. I’d rather fund the arts than a bastardization of truth sorely needing a reality check.

~bella

I am sort of the same. I think art in its various forms expresses truths, experiences and realities that conventional forms of knowing cannot do.

But at the same time I am a pragmatic realist. I deal with the reality happening before me as it presents. A big part of that is the level of knowledge and experience one has and especially that which is grounded in objective reality lol.

But humans are more than this and its when we get into the higher needs such as the more transcedent realities like spirituality, morality, self fullfilment and creative ideas and beliefs.

So I understand the full hierarchy of human needs. I work by this holistic approach. I understand when pragmatically someone is presenting at a hospital with an emergency medical problem its the act place they should expect help regardless of religious belief.

But I also understand that behind this is a higher aspect or reality that is the basis for the whole religion verses secular beliefs cultural phenomena. The ultimate right way society and the world should be ordered. Which worldview you subscribe to determines how you see the higher aspects of reality.

 

[stevevw]

I would think that said millions of believers aren't going to fund a policy that leaves a woman with a non-viable 17-week miscarriage to die of sepsis. If the only reason to change the funding is to dodge a law that's meant to save a woman's life, I can't say that I'm going to support that.

We both know that there are ways to put a marketing spin on the situation to sweep the truth under the rug, but the truth comes out eventually and the wise will know. We're not glorifying God by taking money away from other things to fund evading the law.

The simplist way would be for the Catholic hospital to adjust their polcies and procedures to ensure that situation doesn't happen again. It was an oversight that they did not consider that now needs to be adjusted.

Often when something like this happens and it exposes a weakness in the policies and procedures. So its a case of writing into the P & P's how to deal with this situation accordingly. Memo sent out to all departments.

If situations happen enough then sometimes a region wide or State wide change or adjustment is required. If its law then you have to abide by the laws and regulations and reflect them in the P & P's.

 

[MarkSB]

The simplist way would be for the Catholic hospital to adjust their polcies and procedures to ensure that situation doesn't happen again. It was an oversight that they did not consider that now needs to be adjusted.

How do you know it was an oversight that was not considered? It sounds like the response may have been thought out in advance.

 

[bèlla]

I would think that said millions of believers aren't going to fund a policy that leaves a woman with a non-viable 17-week miscarriage to die of sepsis. If the only reason to change the funding is to dodge a law that's meant to save a woman's life, I can't say that I'm going to support that.

We both know that there are ways to put a marketing spin on the situation to sweep the truth under the rug, but the truth comes out eventually and the wise will know. We're not glorifying God by taking money away from other things to fund evading the law.

My comment wasn’t in relation to the case. If they want to uphold their beliefs without interference they can’t accept federal funds. Christian health plans exist and I was thinking along those lines. Their attempt to circumvent the law while being compensated by the government is the problem.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

Can you elaborate. I am not sure whether you are jesting or not lol.

No one is impartial. When you seek someone’s funding you subject yourself to scrutiny and the government is no different. It’s no different from getting a loan. There are things a lender may overlook that another won’t.

I am speaking about truth and justice, fairness. I am taking secular societies own norms and morals and ideology and using their own standards to hold them to account. Their own ideology claims that all beliefs are equal and allowed to be expressed in society without bias or favour.

The equality you posit diminishes the moment you extend your hand. It’s an invitation for bias.

You don't get what I am saying then. I tend to do this in speaking the third parties in first persons lol. I am not advocating one side or religious freedom that it can breach what is a fundemental truth principle even for Christians that we care for those in need when presenting as a medical emergency. Forget about ethics its a medical emergency that requires intervention fullstop.

I don’t support their decision to withhold care and hope she wins the case.

But I also understand that behind this is a higher aspect or reality that is the basis for the whole religion verses secular beliefs cultural phenomena. The ultimate right way society and the world should be ordered. Which worldview you subscribe to determines how you see the higher aspects of reality.

All institutions are businesses. Whether it’s a church or non profit. My position is a reflection of that reality and seeing behind the scenes. Many want to believe morality wins out and it can until it crosses a line (they set) or compromises them financially. That’s where you learn where they stand. Few will diminish their returns to do the right thing. Christian or otherwise.

There’s power in funding your pursuits. Not merely in terms of respect but it opens doors the other won’t.

The bible tells us the borrower is servant to the lender for a reason. It’s implying the same principle I referenced when I mentioned the beggar. You’re beholden when you rely on others financially and the positions are inequitable as the scripture shows. But notice what it says elsewhere.

The LORD will make you the head (leader) and not the tail (follower); and you will be above only, and you will not be beneath, if you listen and pay attention to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I am commanding you today, to observe them carefully.

That’s the principle I follow and it’s served me well. I don’t look for loans or handouts. If I can’t devise a way to fund it the Lord shows me how. I will never be under anyone’s thumb and financial encumbrance is the gravest captivity.

~bella

 

[o_mlly]

During two separate pregnancies, Rachel Harrison’s water broke at just 17 weeks — a condition that can cause deadly complications.

Can cause! A rupture of the amniotic membrane does not always proceed to an infection and may heal allowing the pregnancy to continue. If infected, and even before signs of infection, antibiotics can be administered to prevent infection.

If the infection of the amniotic membrane does in fact occur and fulminates, Catholic hospitals bioethics do allow the administration of drugs to induce contractions of the mother's uterus in order to expel the infected membranes. Therapeutic interventions on the mother's body to save the mother's life are good. The death of the premature child is bad but tolerated under the principles of the Double Effect.

 

[stevevw]

No one is impartial. When you seek someone’s funding you subject yourself to scrutiny and the government is no different. It’s no different from getting a loan. There are things a lender may overlook that another won’t.

Ok so if say an organisation believes in non abortion and offers say counselling to hep women avoid abortions. Does this organisation get as much support and access to funding as say an organisation that offers abortion. Does the government view both organisations evently and the same that they won't descriminate or insist that either conform to the opposite of their beliefs.

The example was also given of the Christian adoption agency whose policy is only adopting to heterosexual couples in marriage. If the government descriminated against such an agency on funding because of their belief is that fair. If they insist say that the Christian organisation must also be open to adopt to SSM couples to get funding.

The equality you posit diminishes the moment you extend your hand. It’s an invitation for bias.

I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying by nature it is impossible to be neutral about equality. That once you say uplift one group and their beliefs you automatically invite bias against others.

I don’t support their decision to withhold care and hope she wins the case.

Sorry I am not sure of the detail. Is the hospital withholding further care until she wins the case. Why is the same women who was turned away wanting to go back and get further care from a hospital that denied her care in the first place. Is this because its in her jurisdiction and she has no choice.

All institutions are businesses. Whether it’s a church or non profit. My position is a reflection of that reality and seeing behind the scenes. Many want to believe morality wins out and it can until it crosses a line (they set) or compromises them financially. That’s where you learn where they stand. Few will diminish their returns to do the right thing. Christian or otherwise.

Not sure if all organisations treat the services they may setup to help others as businesses for profit. Some actually don't make profits and more or less run on some charges to clients and the rest is charity. Thats what a non profit is.

I think from my experience is that in the past we had lots of charity run social supports that were not expected to conform to State regulations. You could setup a support for say homeless or for marriage counselling and not have to be regulated by the State that much. But over time the States regulations and also legal ramifications have caused all organisations to have to conform.

This is important. But at the same time this has deterred many from bothering to setup such supports as its a mindfiled of litergations, regulations and costs. But it was these unregulated and spontaneous movements that rose up from the people to help others. All this does is bring everything under one centralised power of the Welfare State controlling eveyone.

There’s power in funding your pursuits. Not merely in terms of respect but it opens doors the other won’t.

Yeah but sometimes its not about money. The very nature of Christianity love and charity is to do it for nothing. If it becomes about profits then its no longer about caring for others but making profits. Perhaps thats the fundemental problem in the first place.

The bible tells us the borrower is servant to the lender for a reason. It’s implying the same principle I referenced when I mentioned the beggar. You’re beholden when you rely on others financially and the positions are inequitable as the scripture shows. But notice what it says elsewhere.

But the bible also says that we are to help the Good Samaritan and even give them the shirt off our own backs. Thus actually giving for no return in helping others. Just doing it out of love. I think when it comes to health business is not a good model.

Though I understand the practical reality of runiing a hospital requires financial accountability. But theres a difference between profit driven and peoples driven. Its easy to put profits before people.

The LORD will make you the head (leader) and not the tail (follower); and you will be above only, and you will not be beneath, if you listen and pay attention to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I am commanding you today, to observe them carefully.

That’s the principle I follow and it’s served me well. I don’t look for loans or handouts. If I can’t devise a way to fund it the Lord shows me how. I will never be under anyone’s thumb and financial encumbrance is the gravest captivity.

~bella

The whole idea of handoutts and paying back and all that is an oppressive system of the world that people are forced to abide by. Christians are called to live beyond such a system though we may have to be in that system sometimes.

But ultimately its not how Christians are to live. We are to store up riches in heaven and help others even if that means not making money and suffering as a result as to what this world would consider unreal.

 

[stevevw]

How do you know it was an oversight that was not considered? It sounds like the response may have been thought out in advance.

It may have been. Their beliefs may have caused them to be blind to that particular situation because it was a grey area they were not fully willing to investigate. I think this is common. A bit like groupthink and it happens to any group and not just religious organisations. We are all humans.

I don't think they would set out to deny someone with a medical emergency. They just did not fully think through their policy position in that situation which caused an ethical dilemma they could not deal with. Their policy was too black and white perhaps and did not consider these situations. It has exposed a weakness they need to address.

The point is now they are made aware and have to adjust accordingly to be able to continue to offer their services/ If its a legal requirement. If the requirement is that anyone presenting to a medical emergency department with a life threatening emergency should be helped.

 

[bèlla]

Ok so if say an organisation believes in non abortion and offers say counselling to hep women avoid abortions. Does this organisation get as much support and access to funding as say an organisation that offers abortion. Does the government view both organisations evently and the same that they won't descriminate or insist that either conform to the opposite of their beliefs.

Are you hoping that’s the case? I think their position is largely influenced by their overseers. The invisible hands behind the monolith. I’ve never believed politicians were running the show. Including the president.

The example was also given of the Christian adoption agency whose policy is only adopting to heterosexual couples in marriage. If the government descriminated against such an agency on funding because of their belief is that fair. If they insist say that the Christian organisation must also be open to adopt to SSM couples to get funding.

I know what you’d like me to say but I can’t. The bible provides enough examples about christian’s place in the world and our hardships. Why we exacerbate the latter is beyond me.

I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying by nature it is impossible to be neutral about equality. That once you say uplift one group and their beliefs you automatically invite bias against others.

When a person is making a decision they may choose to heed their bias or ignore it. They’re always with us.

Sorry I am not sure of the detail. Is the hospital withholding further care until she wins the case. Why is the same women who was turned away wanting to go back and get further care from a hospital that denied her care in the first place. Is this because its in her jurisdiction and she has no choice.

Someone suggested that was the case in a previous post.

This is important. But at the same time this has deterred many from bothering to setup such supports as its a mindfiled of litergations, regulations and costs. But it was these unregulated and spontaneous movements that rose up from the people to help others. All this does is bring everything under one centralised power of the Welfare State controlling eveyone.

There was a time when I contemplated running a charity. But I decided against it for many reasons including the above.

Yeah but sometimes its not about money. The very nature of Christianity love and charity is to do it for nothing. If it becomes about profits then its no longer about caring for others but making profits. Perhaps thats the fundemental problem in the first place.

Nothing in the world is free. Including charity. Someone must earn the means or create the resources you dispense. It doesn’t fall from the sky.

Though I understand the practical reality of runiing a hospital requires financial accountability. But theres a difference between profit driven and peoples driven. Its easy to put profits before people.

Given the level of litigation in our society and the malpractice insurance rates they pay. I’d assume there‘s profit involved even if it appears otherwise. It’s a risky business.

The whole idea of handoutts and paying back and all that is an oppressive system of the world that people are forced to abide by. Christians are called to live beyond such a system though we may have to be in that system sometimes.

But ultimately its not how Christians are to live. We are to store up riches in heaven and help others even if that means not making money and suffering as a result as to what this world would consider unreal.

How do you intend to do that? Or what have you done? I’ve noticed a pattern on the site concerning this subject. You only quote the bible and say what should occur. But I rarely hear personal tales. It’s kind of odd.

@Carl Emerson posed a question along these lines and I responded to the thread. My answer was based on something I drafted for myself concerning patronage and the direction I want us to take in our household. When the desire to give is deeply felt you do things like that. You don’t speak in platitudes or wag your finger. You put things in place and act.

I’m not suggesting you‘ve done so with your post but it’s something I’ve noticed. And I‘ve been in circles where philanthropy is the norm and joined an organization known for its generosity in my twenties. I wasn’t walking with the Lord at the time but my commitment to patronage was great.

I mentioned the value of a moral compass earlier and your comment has me weighing it once more. Many of the things I do aren’t on account of my faith. I don’t need the bible to tell me to give, live decently and so on. The desire to do so is already there. Perhaps that‘s why christians struggle so much. You’re working against your nature. It’s easier to follow the current than swim against it.

~bella

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

for what its worth, my mom was raised catholic and i know that part of herself even in her old age:


still believes mothers should die with their miscarriages. I wish i was making this up.

This is sad. I wonder if the Catholic hospital and many people on here thinks this way.

 

[o_mlly]

This is sad. I wonder if the Catholic hospital and many people on here thinks this way.

Catholic teaching does not require mothers to die in miscarriages:

https://www.usccb.org/resources/ethical-religious-directives-catholic-health-service-sixth-edition-2016-06_0.pdf

47. Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a​

proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when​

they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in​

the death of the unborn child.​

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Catholic teaching does not require mothers to die in miscarriages:

https://www.usccb.org/resources/ethical-religious-directives-catholic-health-service-sixth-edition-2016-06_0.pdf

47. Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a​

proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when​

they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in​

the death of the unborn child.​

That's good to know. But the Catholic put a woman in danger. When she should have sent to labor and delivery. They should have induced her labor. At the very least, it was dangerous not to give medical care.

 

[johansen]

This is sad. I wonder if the Catholic hospital and many people on here thinks this way.

There are a few on this forum who uphold the catholic death center (i do not call them a hospital)
Sending the hemmoraging woman away to another.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

There are a few on this forum who uphold the catholic death center (i do not call them a hospital)
Sending the hemmoraging woman away to another.

I agree. We have 2 Catholic hospital in my city. I took my dad to one of them.. I liked it. They did a good job. I like the coziness of the rooms. They have crosses all over. I would, that they would do their job. In this type a case.

 

[stevevw]

Are you hoping that’s the case? I think their position is largely influenced by their overseers. The invisible hands behind the monolith. I’ve never believed politicians were running the show. Including the president.

Ok so you have identified that there is some power or motivating factor that can force the State to adhere to certain ideologies or agendas. So the State is never neutral and can either be beholden to certain ideaologies from individuals and groups they side with. Or just their basic ideology as a party is antagonistic to opposing beliefs as we have seen in the culture wars.

They may descriminate against certain groups and deny funding merely because of a disagreement of ideological beliefs. Not facts or science or the truth about whats best. But merely because they don't like the other groups beliefs.

I know what you’d like me to say but I can’t. The bible provides enough examples about christian’s place in the world and our hardships. Why we exacerbate the latter is beyond me.

Are you saying that Christians or Christian organisations who may be descriminated against should accept that descrimination as part of the hardships they must endure. Say nothing.

I understand that we must not get into culture wars and make Christianity political. Like some sort of theocracy on earth through political or worldlly power. That is more or less becoming the world.

But where is the line. To what extent can a Christian organisation exist in the world without being the world. Maybe thats why I think Christians should be offering help for free. No strings attached and no obligations to anyone but God. But then they will still have to abide by the worlds ideologies.

Peter and Paul say Christians should be subject to the authroities even if they are unjust. Be Christlike and submit even if its unfair as the good example will turn people to God.

Someone suggested that was the case in a previous post.

I am not sure. If this is the case then it must be that people are assigned certain areas or health carers that are in their area. Like schools. So maybe that is the only hospital in her area. But then how can the hospital refuse to treat her if its suppose to be her care facility. \

Its also weird that a person would want to go to a hospital that could have actually caused her death. I would be staying well away lol. She would have to be at some other hospital now as she needs to be treated. I don't know.

There was a time when I contemplated running a charity. But I decided against it for many reasons including the above.

I mean setting up your home kitchen to cook meals for the needy is one one. But even then you have to be careful as it gets to a point where you have to start worrying about registrations, workplace health and safety ect.

But people still do it. They cannot help but start grassroots movements in helping others. They try and keep it quiet and do it in the background. I know of many who are driving round at night with meals and blankets helping those on the streets.

Nothing in the world is free. Including charity. Someone must earn the means or create the resources you dispense. It doesn’t fall from the sky.

Yes and thats those more able. A big cost is labor but as Christians doing it for no return helps a lot. This is how social welfare began with organisations like the Salvos. What you notice is that its infectous and then others come out and donate and want to help. It can be done for little money.

Given the level of litigation in our society and the malpractice insurance rates they pay. I’d assume there‘s profit involved even if it appears otherwise. It’s a risky business.

Obviously if your going to work with others you have to have some minimal costs like insurance and any State fees. But musch can be done with volunteers. I mean are not Christians suppose to help others like the Good Samaritan. Pool all their resources and help the poor. Even going without themselves.

Otherwise Christianity becomes just another version of corporate society in the world.

How do you intend to do that? Or what have you done? I’ve noticed a pattern on the site concerning this subject. You only quote the bible and say what should occur. But I rarely hear personal tales. It’s kind of odd.

First forget about what anyone has done. Either the bible is correct or its not. Christ and the disciples are clear. We are to help the poor even if that means sacrificing our own place in the world as far as riches and comforts. So it doesn't matter what others do as its a truth teachings.

MOst people agree Christians have become too comfortable with one foot in each world. Unlike the early church which proves its possible. We just forgot and the world has overtaken.

But ultimately the worlds suppose to hate Christ and Christians. So it doesn't matter as a true Christian will be called to stand up and suffer anyway. As for myself I try to help as much as I can. I am disabled so I cannot do a lot. But any work I have done has been to help others and now I volunteer as one of those free workers that helps run a organisation that helps the disadvantaged. I could do more.

@Carl Emerson posed a question along these lines and I responded to the thread. My answer was based on something I drafted for myself concerning patronage and the direction I want us to take in our household. When the desire to give is deeply felt you do things like that. You don’t speak in platitudes or wag your finger. You put things in place and act.

I think principly Christianity is not something that is always felt. Like the person has to feel in the mood for giving or helping. I think its a duty and even when we don't feel like it. Its something we have to make a priority even over our choices of work and personal investments ect that will create some nest egg and empire in this world.

Now I know this is incredibly hard especially in a consumer, modern tech and material world. But that is the aim. It will depend of course on family commitments as the bible says we have to first look after our family. How can we help others if we cannot look after our own family. But as a family that can make us stronger as a group to help others as well.

But its hard and ultimately its up to each individual and what they believe is right for them in their situation. But definitely I think we are to give up the world as much as we can and trust God.

Otherwise I think there will come a time where just being a Christian in this world will be too hard for many because by nature this world hates Christians and one way or another whether they voluntarily sacrifice themselves or not. They will suffer if they are truely standing with Christ.

I’m not suggesting you‘ve done so with your post but it’s something I’ve noticed. And I‘ve been in circles where philanthropy is the norm and joined an organization known for its generosity in my twenties. I wasn’t walking with the Lord at the time but my commitment to patronage was great.

It is natural for people to help others. But Christians are suppose to do it in secret. NOt tell others. As then it becomes about self rather than God. Theres a new phenomena called PC and social marketing which is all about the organisations social imprint and how this itself is now a marketable aspect of business in scoring brownie points in the eyes of society.

I mentioned the value of a moral compass earlier and your comment has me weighing it once more. Many of the things I do aren’t on account of my faith. I don’t need the bible to tell me to give, live decently and so on. The desire to do so is already there. Perhaps that‘s why christians struggle so much. You’re working against your nature. It’s easier to follow the current than swim against it.

~bella

I find desire is a feeling that can come and go and hard to maintain. Whereas as a principle helping others is a duty. A fruit that tells us we are in Christ and not of the world. Ultimately sacrificing ones life for another for no return. Which goes against human feeling and instinct.

This is suppose to be the Christian calling and its a matter of judgement as to whether we are truely in Christ or just weekend Christians.

 

[bèlla]

Ok so you have identified that there is some power or motivating factor that can force the State to adhere to certain ideologies or agendas. So the State is never neutral and can either be beholden to certain ideaologies from individuals and groups they side with. Or just their basic ideology as a party is antagonistic to opposing beliefs as we have seen in the culture wars.

I’m not saying anything you aren‘t aware of. You see lobbyists on the hill. Are they championing you or their donors? If your elected leaders are swayed by contributions and influence from lobbyists. Why do you expect them to be fair or unbiased?

Are you saying that Christians or Christian organisations who may be descriminated against should accept that descrimination as part of the hardships they must endure. Say nothing.

They should be honest with themselves about the people they’re dealing with. Sometimes they’ll work in their favor and sometimes they won’t and the reasons are rarely shared. If that’s unacceptable to them they should find a different approach or accept the consequences.

I understand that we must not get into culture wars and make Christianity political. Like some sort of theocracy on earth through political or worldlly power. That is more or less becoming the world.

But where is the line. To what extent can a Christian organisation exist in the world without being the world. Maybe thats why I think Christians should be offering help for free. No strings attached and no obligations to anyone but God. But then they will still have to abide by the worlds ideologies.

You have to understand the spiritual quality of energy and why it should be directed towards profitable pursuits. That’s the supernatural meaning of ROI. The reason they’re in these situations is because of ease. 501c3, government grants, etc. But he wouldn’t be in your business if you weren’t in his orbit. You know he’s biased and can be bought. But you won’t leave him alone.

You can’t end with christians should offer services for free. That‘s not a solution. You have to flesh it out and see what that looks like on paper. How many will be impacted by that decision and where do the resources come from? What percentage of the population could fill the positions without compensation?

You have to take the idea and turn it into a strategy. If I wanted to do the same and knew how to do so I’d sell it. That’s how I think and it keeps me out the other’s hands.

Its also weird that a person would want to go to a hospital that could have actually caused her death. I would be staying well away lol. She would have to be at some other hospital now as she needs to be treated. I don't know.

This is an odd story and you’re not alone in that.

Obviously if your going to work with others you have to have some minimal costs like insurance and any State fees. But musch can be done with volunteers. I mean are not Christians suppose to help others like the Good Samaritan. Pool all their resources and help the poor. Even going without themselves.

I believe the Lord lays different burdens on our hearts in that regard.

Most people agree Christians have become too comfortable with one foot in each world. Unlike the early church which proves its possible. We just forgot and the world has overtaken.

Who are the people you’re referring to? They weren’t preaching that from the pulpit. If they did their membership would thin. No one was sacrificing anything when times were plentiful. They shared of course but not to their detriment. You hear it now because things have tightened. It isn’t a change of heart. They want community because they need help. When life was good they were nestled in the suburbs ignoring the world.

But ultimately the worlds suppose to hate Christ and Christians. So it doesn't matter as a true Christian will be called to stand up and suffer anyway. As for myself I try to help as much as I can. I am disabled so I cannot do a lot. But any work I have done has been to help others and now I volunteer as one of those free workers that helps run a organisation that helps the disadvantaged. I could do more.

If the world is supposed to hate me it seems prudent to be less reliant on that entity.

I think principly Christianity is not something that is always felt. Like the person has to feel in the mood for giving or helping. I think its a duty and even when we don't feel like it. Its something we have to make a priority even over our choices of work and personal investments ect that will create some nest egg and empire in this world.

Most of the things I do are done by choice. My first priority is the Lord and the second is my calling. I won’t forsake the latter for anyone. Which requires me to say no at times.

If work and resources aren’t a priority who’s funding the things you said? Someone has to write a check. That isn’t realistic.

But its hard and ultimately its up to each individual and what they believe is right for them in their situation. But definitely I think we are to give up the world as much as we can and trust God.

Trusting God isn’t sitting on your hands and waiting for a miracle. It’s an active principle. I trusted Him when He called me to the lost and told me to start a business. I did the same when he wanted me to become and chose two disciplines instead. I trusted when He told me to leave my loved ones and move overseas. I trusted Him when He provided ideas and companies to invest in. I trust Him when He tells me what to do and what to avoid and so on.

Otherwise I think there will come a time where just being a Christian in this world will be too hard for many because by nature this world hates Christians and one way or another whether they voluntarily sacrifice themselves or not. They will suffer if they are truely standing with Christ.

We’re already at that point. Why do you think they’re asking to be raptured. The shaking is unnerving them and this is easy part. Losing their financial security is more than many can bear.

It is natural for people to help others. But Christians are suppose to do it in secret. NOt tell others. As then it becomes about self rather than God. Theres a new phenomena called PC and social marketing which is all about the organisations social imprint and how this itself is now a marketable aspect of business in scoring brownie points in the eyes of society.

You can see it as that and it may be the case for some. But others may be sharing an experience or demonstrating the ways we can aid others big or small. Everyone isn’t called to shadows. He uses people on social media too.

I find desire is a feeling that can come and go and hard to maintain. Whereas as a principle helping others is a duty.

Noblesse oblige is the same. That’s why the wealthy give money irrespective of their belief. They understand the principle of sowing and reaping. Some of them are wicked of course but a lot of things they do are rooted in the word. They’ve studied cause and effect and so have I.

I’m practical and I don’t attribute it to religion. There’s things I don’t want to experience and choosing otherwise is best. The reverse holds true as well. I want a good life and doing what He says provides it. I don’t overthink or spiritualize it. But that’s my way. Others broach it differently.

~bella

 

[stevevw]

I’m not saying anything you aren‘t aware of. You see lobbyists on the hill. Are they championing you or their donors? If your elected leaders are swayed by contributions and influence from lobbyists. Why do you expect them to be fair or unbiased?

I don't. I'm pointing out that there is no neutral State. In one way or another they are bound by their own and/or others ideology.

They should be honest with themselves about the people they’re dealing with. Sometimes they’ll work in their favor and sometimes they won’t and the reasons are rarely shared. If that’s unacceptable to them they should find a different approach or accept the consequences.

I'm talking about if the market place decriminates against a particular religious belief. Should they say something. If say the government refuses funding for say a anti abortion clinic. If the government refuses funding because they disagree with the policy of promoting anti abortion. If abortion is allowed then both should be given equal funding and treatment.

But it seems that pro abortion is the norm and anti abortion is seen as hateful and attacked as a belief in society. Or even if the anti abortion clinic funds itself but is descriminated against such as not having their services recognised and promoted like proabortion. Say in schools.

You have to understand the spiritual quality of energy and why it should be directed towards profitable pursuits. That’s the supernatural meaning of ROI. The reason they’re in these situations is because of ease. 501c3, government grants, etc. But he wouldn’t be in your business if you weren’t in his orbit. You know he’s biased and can be bought. But you won’t leave him alone.

I am a bit lost. Whats spiritual energy and government grants got to do with each other.

You can’t end with christians should offer services for free. That‘s not a solution. You have to flesh it out and see what that looks like on paper. How many will be impacted by that decision and where do the resources come from? What percentage of the population could fill the positions without compensation?

I volunteer at a homeless hub which is completely run for free as far as staff. Has a commercial kitchen operating 5 days a week as well as a hub for snacks, relax and social time and of course all the catering for all things related to homelessness and housing. Except for the homes lol.

Thats other parties like public long, short and emergency which is undersupplied. Several charities like Salvos, St Vinnies, Chruch of Christ provide their own houses but limited.

I also worked and volunteered at a community center that was 85& volunteer. We had to apply for government grants for particular programs like older persons or relationship counselling.

You would be amazed at how people come together and are willing to sacrifice their time and money for that matter. At the homeless hud we have music concerts to raise money and benfactors, local businesses, and individuals donating.

I see a few churches starting up projects like helping the elderly with home chores and small repairs for free. Providing blankets, tents, food and social contact to the disadvantaged.

I reckon if all Christians sacrificed like this we would set the exact opposite example of the bad examples the church set in the past and that I thionk is the level of commitment now needed to make a statement about God today. To make peoples heads turn. Anything less is just like the world.

You have to take the idea and turn it into a strategy. If I wanted to do the same and knew how to do so I’d sell it. That’s how I think and it keeps me out the other’s hands.

Trouble is some people hate the product. Dispise it. You have to really be good at navigating the world.

This is an odd story and you’re not alone in that.

I believe the Lord lays different burdens on our hearts in that regard.

I think its much the same for any Christian. If we see people in need and then walk on by then we are walking by Jesus. This was what Jesus said when asked how we can get into heaven.

Who are the people you’re referring to? They weren’t preaching that from the pulpit. If they did their membership would thin. No one was sacrificing anything when times were plentiful. They shared of course but not to their detriment. You hear it now because things have tightened. It isn’t a change of heart. They want community because they need help. When life was good they were nestled in the suburbs ignoring the world.

I don't know, its just what I have heard. That church attenences have deminished and churches have become more secular. Its only natural as society has become more secular.

If the world is supposed to hate me it seems prudent to be less reliant on that entity.

Yes and thats why Christians have to help each other so they are less reliant on the world. Create their own little world within the world. Insulate the church from the world as much as possible.

Most of the things I do are done by choice. My first priority is the Lord and the second is my calling. I won’t forsake the latter for anyone. Which requires me to say no at times.

Well your calling is putting God first.

If work and resources aren’t a priority who’s funding the things you said? Someone has to write a check. That isn’t realistic.

You'd be surprised when people start sacrificing for a good cause others do. I think its really hard today as we are so use to material things. I think in some ways when people become poor like in poor nations or those under oppression where the cannot practice Christianity they become bolder. They are tested and can achieve amazing things with nothing. Somehow God will provide and find a way.

Heres the thing. I think there will come a time where Christians will have to make a choice between the world and Christ. If the world is the anti Christ then it will hate Christians and Christians will be forced to either go along or stand with Christ. I think this is the sorting of the wheat and chaff.

Trusting God isn’t sitting on your hands and waiting for a miracle. It’s an active principle. I trusted Him when He called me to the lost and told me to start a business. I did the same when he wanted me to become and chose two disciplines instead. I trusted when He told me to leave my loved ones and move overseas. I trusted Him when He provided ideas and companies to invest in. I trust Him when He tells me what to do and what to avoid and so on.

I have the experience of both worlds lol. I agree and in some ways being a Christian is like business in that your investing yourself into Gods work and will. Like the parable of the Talens. So your sort of making investments for God.

I think whenever there is great suffering or falling away from God that God provides just as great a sign that He is there and can help. Whether that be like groups volunteering to help the elderly as a church or bold Christians reminding people of the gospel when all else has failed. The greater the setback the greater is God.

We’re already at that point. Why do you think they’re asking to be raptured. The shaking is unnerving them and this is easy part. Losing their financial security is more than many can bear.

Yes I think so. It seems to be heading that way rather than not heading that way.

You can see it as that and it may be the case for some. But others may be sharing an experience or demonstrating the ways we can aid others big or small. Everyone isn’t called to shadows. He uses people on social media too.

If we all gave up half our stuff which would compromise people a fair bit. But nothing too dramatic that it will be too hard to handle. This would wipe out death through no food in one week. Thats the reality. But it won't be until those with will face having nothing that they will give all to God. This is our fallen nature. I am lucky I learned the hard way lol. That I had all and then nothing.

Noblesse oblige is the same. That’s why the wealthy give money irrespective of their belief. They understand the principle of sowing and reaping. Some of them are wicked of course but a lot of things they do are rooted in the word. They’ve studied cause and effect and so have I.

Yes all are capable of loving our neighbours. I think its more about who you make God. God of this world or the one true God. In that sense you may have money or things but they are not your gods. Though its a tricky line to walk as its so easy to make money your god. Christ said its hard for a rich man to enter heaven. What is rich. Is it enough that money and things are more important that God.

I’m practical and I don’t attribute it to religion. There’s things I don’t want to experience and choosing otherwise is best. The reverse holds true as well. I want a good life and doing what He says provides it. I don’t overthink or spiritualize it. But that’s my way. Others broach it differently.

~bella

Thanks Bella

 

[o_mlly]

That's good to know. But the Catholic put a woman in danger. When she should have sent to labor and delivery. They should have induced her labor. At the very least, it was dangerous not to give medical care.

As far as we know, the woman was already in danger before presenting herself to the hospital. So I think it is incorrect to claim a Catholic put her in danger. One must remember that in these extreme cases of emergency pregnancies, Catholic doctors know that they are treating two patients -- mother and child. We do not know if the woman would only allow a direct abortion and refused a managed delivery or not.

 

[bèlla]

I'm talking about if the market place decriminates against a particular religious belief. Should they say something. If say the government refuses funding for say a anti abortion clinic. If the government refuses funding because they disagree with the policy of promoting anti abortion. If abortion is allowed then both should be given equal funding and treatment.

That isn’t something I’d weigh on given my position. We have opinions of course and mine alleviates situations like that. I’d leave it to persons like yourself. ~lol

But it seems that pro abortion is the norm and anti abortion is seen as hateful and attacked as a belief in society. Or even if the anti abortion clinic funds itself but is descriminated against such as not having their services recognised and promoted like proabortion. Say in schools.

I don’t think schools should be promoting either. Every era has a controversial issue and abortion is ours. You’re going to have problems like that as a result.

I am a bit lost. Whats spiritual energy and government grants got to do with each other.

We have a limited amount of time and energy to expend. Why do you think lawyers drag things out? It’s meant to wear you down. Fighting it out may seem reasonable initially but it comes at a cost. Literally and otherwise. Your focus will be divided not to mention the stress. Which has a negative impact on the organization. That’s why we pick and choose our battles.

You would be amazed at how people come together and are willing to sacrifice their time and money for that matter. At the homeless hud we have music concerts to raise money and benfactors, local businesses, and individuals donating.

Not really. I did a lot of volunteering in my twenties and served frequently at church. I didn’t have the responsibilities I do today and participation isn’t always even handed.

I reckon if all Christians sacrificed like this we would set the exact opposite example of the bad examples the church set in the past and that I thionk is the level of commitment now needed to make a statement about God today. To make peoples heads turn. Anything less is just like the world.

I think it’s more important to serve where the Lord leads. For some that’s places you’ve described. Others will launch projects, serve on boards, etc.

I don't know, its just what I have heard. That church attenences have deminished and churches have become more secular. Its only natural as society has become more secular.

Church attendance was down before the pandemic and didn’t rebound afterwards. Many enjoyed watching services via stream and others were disappointed about the lack of support they received and didn’t return. I don’t know if I’d say they’re secular. That’s an easy charge. A more accurate one would be the shift in its importance in society and with believers to some degree.

Yes and thats why Christians have to help each other so they are less reliant on the world. Create their own little world within the world. Insulate the church from the world as much as possible.

In my experience the majority are content watching others do the heavy lifting while they enjoy the spoils if they get involved at all. Most churches are carried by a small portion of members. You see the same people all the time. Because it isn’t a community and church is a separate entity from their lives much like I noted above. It’s the place they gather on Sunday but the remainder of the week is spent elsewhere and most of their friends aren’t members. The uncomfortable truth is you aren’t a family. Calling someone a brother or sister doesn’t make them such. A lot of it is situational and in name only.

Well your calling is putting God first.

Putting God first is His expectation but it isn’t the reason I’m here. That’s what I’m referring to.

You'd be surprised when people start sacrificing for a good cause others do. I think its really hard today as we are so use to material things. I think in some ways when people become poor like in poor nations or those under oppression where the cannot practice Christianity they become bolder. They are tested and can achieve amazing things with nothing. Somehow God will provide and find a way.

No one wants to be poor and you’ll be hard pressed to find someone who genuinely wants to part with their plenty so others may have. They look at themselves and their family and the work they’ve put in to provide and believe they’ve earned it and they have if it wasn’t done illegally.

The bible places the onus on families when need exists. That’s the first place you’re supposed to go. Not strangers or the church. Because its unsustainable. If people would look after their own the need wouldn’t be so great. But when they expect the government to pick up the slack the problem balloons.

My grandmother used to say she didn’t have extra money and chided my aunt for giving to charities. Not that she was opposed and did as well. But she believed family came first. Although they had less for a time their lives were demonstratively richer than their children’s who didn’t grasp that principle.

I’m the only one who did and she named me her successor before she died and bypassed the rest. My daughter and I were given a blessing by my grandparents and they praised me for my work. Much like her, my primary commitment is to my household and descendants. If everyone followed the proverb of leaving something behind the youth wouldn’t be struggling. They’d have a nest egg to draw from.

Heres the thing. I think there will come a time where Christians will have to make a choice between the world and Christ. If the world is the anti Christ then it will hate Christians and Christians will be forced to either go along or stand with Christ. I think this is the sorting of the wheat and chaff.

Many are preparing for that time as we speak. That’s why they’re buying land, homesteading, starting businesses and becoming more self-sufficient. But it’s a sliver of the population and even less among believers. Look at the economy. Do we have a shortage of seeds or canning jars? Of course not. Americans love their convenience and I don’t know what christians will do when that time is upon us.

Next time you go out look at your neighborhood in a two to three block radius. Look at the yards and count the gardens. That’s your reality. The more you see the less resources you’re competing for. Most stores have less than a week of stock on hand. That’s how they do things today. The less self-sufficiency the greater the unlikelihood your neighbors will have much to share unless they’re the sort to stock up as a norm. Most people don’t have 6 months on hand let alone a year.

Christians frequently repeat your comment but rarely go beyond it. They don’t ask themselves if they should be doing or learning something or preparing their families. It’s one day down the road and they’ll figure things out. But if the pandemic taught us anything it’s that the hour is unannounced. One day we were fine and the next we weren’t. Rest assured we won’t have time.

I think whenever there is great suffering or falling away from God that God provides just as great a sign that He is there and can help. Whether that be like groups volunteering to help the elderly as a church or bold Christians reminding people of the gospel when all else has failed. The greater the setback the greater is God.

We’re going to have much suffering in the coming years before 2030 arrives. Many will ask where is the Lord. Americans haven’t dealt with hardship on that scale nor has their faith been tested to that decibel. I don’t believe there will be a provision. It will be a time of trial and shaking.

But it won't be until those with will face having nothing that they will give all to God. This is our fallen nature. I am lucky I learned the hard way lol. That I had all and then nothing.

People with means don’t come to God en masse from loss and that isn’t ideal. Pain is but a season and we move beyond it eventually. There has to be a genuine desire for His presence outside of the hurt. And it‘s usually the result of needing something greater than oneself.

Yes all are capable of loving our neighbours. I think its more about who you make God. God of this world or the one true God. In that sense you may have money or things but they are not your gods. Though its a tricky line to walk as its so easy to make money your god. Christ said its hard for a rich man to enter heaven. What is rich. Is it enough that money and things are more important that God.

That isn’t as easy as most assume. Worship is a different scale of greed. If you want a good example look at the conversations on politics and the level of polarization and blindness that ensues. You had people celebrating the cuts Trump made on the poor. That’s idolatry. The people who go to WEF and laugh about Ai replacing jobs making us useless is idolatry. Their conscience is seared and only the Lord can help. You can’t reason with them. It’s more than possessions. It’s a mindset.

Have a blessed week.

~bella