The Beast of Revelation is a Political and Religious Entity.

[reddogs]

A Beast in prophecy is identified as a Kingdom which symbolizes a Nation.
Daniel 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

But at the same time this Nation which is demanding worship
Revelation 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

And we see what happens who accede to its demands..
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

And it is pictured as a women on it which in bible prophecy symbolizes a church.

Revelation 17:3-6
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

This means that the Beast is both political and religious, and we find the following about the Church of Rome.

“No other religious system has [these] two powers, both political and religious.” -(The Godfathers, pg.3 Dr. Alberto Rivera)

"The Pope State, a unique entity within the heart of Rome, stands as a symbol of spiritual authority and historical significance. Encompassing the Vatican City, this independent city-state serves not only as the papal residence but also as a focal point for millions of Catholics worldwide."The Role of the Pope in Vatican City: A Political Perspective | Actualizado February 2025

"Vatican City, the world’s smallest independent state, holds a profound significance that extends far beyond its geographical size. Nestled within the city of Rome, Italy, this sovereign entity serves as the spiritual and administrative center of the Roman Catholic Church."Significance of Vatican City - Catholicism

“The Vatican is a government itself. It is a political state of which every Roman Catholic becomes a member at the time of baptism… Their allegiance should be to Rome first, then to the country in which they were born.” -Double-Cross, pg. 29

"Vatican City was established as an independent state in the year 1929 by the Lateran Treaty."The Vatican's government

"Vatican City is the smallest state in the world, measuring only 108 acres, and is located entirely within the city of Rome.'" 14 New Catholic Encyclopedia 555 (1981 edition).

"The Vatican City, often simply referred to as the Vatican, is the smallest independent city-state in the world, both in terms of area and population. Enclaved within the city of Rome, it stands out as a sovereign state that operates independently from Italy. The Vatican is the spiritual and administrative headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church, serving as the residence of the Pope..."Why Is The Vatican Not Part Of Italy? A Historical And Political Explanation

The Beast of Revelation is clearly a Political and Religious entity and we see who it is if we discern what Gods Word gives us.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Reddogs, I'm sure you have experience frustration on many occasions while you have shared from scripture the correct understanding on death, hell, and the sabbath, only to discover, that individuals will still adamantly defend what their religion teaches even through it is not supported by a "thus saith the Lord."

But are you any different than they when you promote our teaching that the first beast of Revelation 13 is the Rome Catholic Church, despite the prophecy foretelling the timing in which the first beast rises from the sea, will be after one of it's seven heads, (the papacy), wound is healed. You are well aware that wound was inflicted in 1798, and it did not start it's healing until 1929, under the Latern Tready. As of this day the wound is not fully healed nor will it be, until the Roman Catholic Church joins in consolidation with the six other heads (religions) and the ten kings (the ten toes of Dan. 2) which make up this beast.

Based on the specific timing in which the two beast in Revelation 13, are to appear on the worlds scene (some point in the future), our interpretation (SDA) of which you adamantly defend, is invalid.

 

[Amo2]

Reddogs, I'm sure you have experience frustration on many occasions while you have shared from scripture the correct understanding on death, hell, and the sabbath, only to discover, that individuals will still adamantly defend what their religion teaches even through it is not supported by a "thus saith the Lord."

But are you any different than they when you promote our teaching that the first beast of Revelation 13 is the Rome Catholic Church, despite the prophecy foretelling the timing in which the first beast rises from the sea, will be after one of it's seven heads, (the papacy), wound is healed. You are well aware that wound was inflicted in 1798, and it did not start it's healing until 1929, under the Latern Tready. As of this day the wound is not fully healed nor will it be, until the Roman Catholic Church joins in consolidation with the six other heads (religions) and the ten kings (the ten toes of Dan. 2) which make up this beast.

Based on the specific timing in which the two beast in Revelation 13, are to appear on the worlds scene (some point in the future), our interpretation (SDA) of which you adamantly defend, is invalid.

Interesting. Why will you ignore the chronological order of beasts developed in the book of Daniel, and insist apparently, that all seven should exist at the same time? I can understand why one should determine that certain elements or influences of prior beast or kingdoms would continue on in those they were succeeded by, but not why they should all exist at the same time.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The final beast is destroyed by God at the end as described above and in Rev 19:20 & 20:10. The rest of the preceding beasts lives are prolonged for a season and time. That is to say I take it, that though their kingdom was defeated and overtaken by another, the people lived on whose religion and influence was absorbed by their conquerers. This is not so with the final beast, which having elements of all those before within as noted in the first two verses of Rev 13, morphs from 4th to 5th beast succeeding those before it in a different manner than attained their status as beasts. That is to say being succeeded from powers within, not from being conquered from without. Which beast also later resurrects as it were, unto the seventh and final beast which is destroyed in the lake of fire.

Resurrection - Rev 13:3&4, 15&16, & 17:8, 10&11

Destruction - Rev 19:20 & 20:10

It is the dragon that has seven heads, the first beast of Rev 13 being the manifestation of one of those heads and therefore the dragon, being described. Each beast represents one of the heads of the dragon, being his representation to the world during their reign. Existing in direct relationship to and or opposed to God's people or nation on this earth.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Beasts, kings, heads, and mountains all representing these same counterfeit kingdoms of the evil one in defiance and at war with the kingdom of God. As they are all said to be one another and or spoken of interchangeably in the following verses.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

They are the dragons counterfeit kingdoms or mountains if you will, as he was kicked out of the mountain or kingdom of God, which he manifests upon this earth through fallen humanity in defiance of God and His everlasting kingdom.

Ezk 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Jer 51:24 And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. 26 And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.

Babylon is the connecting factor of all the New Covenant or final beasts of biblical prophecy. The evil one is her king and gives her, her seat of authority.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Why will you ignore the chronological order of beasts developed in the book of Daniel, and insist apparently, that all seven should exist at the same time?

Amo2, appreciate your interest in this conversation. If we were discussing the prophecies of Daniel, you would see I do not ignore the chronology of those four beast. However, this discussion is on the first beast of Rev. 13. One should not ignore the descriptive details of the beast if we are to understand its true identity. In this case the beast has seven heads and ten horns bearing crowns, and upon the heads the name of blasphemy. Too, it has some resemblance of a leopard, feet of a bear, and a lions mouth, representing the final union of nations, multitudes, and languages.

I will explain in further detail what makes up this beast should you be interested, but before I do I have a question for you. The reason for me asking is I surmise you have no idea as to what world wide events will propel this beast onto the world’s stage, therefore, your understanding of what this beast represents and what Satan intends to achieve through it is incorrect.

My question. What prophetic events forces the first beast of Rev. 13., up out of the sea?

It is the dragon that has seven heads, the first beast of Rev 13 being the manifestation of one of those heads and therefore the dragon, being described. Each beast represents one of the heads of the dragon, being his representation to the world during their reign. Existing in direct relationship to and or opposed to God's people or nation on this earth.

Yes, the dragon of Rev. 12, has seven heads, but the first beast of Rev. 13, emerges from the sea, which represents nations, multitudes, and languages, unlike the dragon who appears from heaven, (Rev. 12:3). This beast cannot be representative of one of its heads, since it has seven, not to mention the ten horns and the 42 months it is given to power, after it appears.

I will identify this beast, but before I do, I’m interested in what you think the head that had the fatal wound represents along with the ten horns and if the 42 months are literal or 1260 years, day for a year?

I’ll be anxious to hear from you.

 

[Amo2]

Amo2, appreciate your interest in this conversation. If we were discussing the prophecies of Daniel, you would see I do not ignore the chronology of those four beast. However, this discussion is on the first beast of Rev. 13. One should not ignore the descriptive details of the beast if we are to understand its true identity. In this case the beast has seven heads and ten horns bearing crowns, and upon the heads the name of blasphemy. Too, it has some resemblance of a leopard, feet of a bear, and a lions mouth, representing the final union of nations, multitudes, and languages.

I will explain in further detail what makes up this beast should you be interested, but before I do I have a question for you. The reason for me asking is I surmise you have no idea as to what world wide events will propel this beast onto the world’s stage, therefore, your understanding of what this beast represents and what Satan intends to achieve through it is incorrect.

My question. What prophetic events forces the first beast of Rev. 13., up out of the sea?

The prophecy does not say certain events forced this beast out of the sea. It simply says that this beast rises out of the sea, which I agree via Rev 17:15 includes peoples, nations, multitudes, and tongues. In Daniel 7, it was the four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea, that caused the four beasts to arise out of the throngs of humanity. In Rev 13 concerning the fifth beast of biblical prophecy, we are not given a cause or commotion for or of its rise. It is simply seen to rise out of the sea. Suggesting different reasons for its rise, than that of the four former beasts of Daniel 7.

This is in fact in direct relation to the fourth beast of Daniel 7 itself, which Daniel declares to be different than the rest.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

This fourth beast does not end like the beasts before it did. As Daniel 7 points out as well.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This beast will end when this world does by the judgement of God according to verses 9-11, being given to the burning flame as the beast of Rev 19:20, and 20:10 is also. That is because they are the same beast. Not identical, but both empowered by the dragon, as all the biblical beasts of prophecy were. Each tied together spiritually by paganism, and sun worship in particular. The fourth beast exists into the New covenant era, which does not rise, fall, or end like the beasts of the Old Covenant era. Being Satan's counterfeit to Christ's New Covenant spiritual kingdom, arising as a spiritual kingdom itself from within other kingdoms instead of conquering them from without, as the Old Covenant beasts did.

As the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ changed everything pertaining to the establishment of His universal kingdom on this earth, so the Devil changed the nature of his counterfeit kingdoms to mimic that of our Lords, and even in His name unto confusion and deception. God miraculously established His kingdom in this world of the Old Covenant with a literal nation, who fought literal wars with their enemies, conquering all while remaining faithful or chaste unto Him. But being described as a harlot or harlot when it was not, and being defeated by its enemies.

In this New Covenant era, our Lord Jesus Christ miraculously established His universal spiritual kingdom from within the Roman Empire, the very seat of the dragons fourth beast or head. Conquering Rome from within with the complete fall of paganism. Yet the Devil learned rapidly, went right back to his old tricks, and invaded our Lord's kingdom with world acceptance and the immediate apostasy that comes right along with it. Through which paganism marched right back into the front door of professed Christianity. Mimicking our Lord's establishment of His spiritual kingdom from within, with a new apostate and paganized version of worldly acceptable "Christianity". William Durant summarized the process fairly accurately in one paragraph.

When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror. The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome. Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art. When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind. May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from their beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

The papacy is in fact the revised pagan Roman Empire. Who has been conquering her enemies and nations from within for centuries now. Who is now on the verge of conquering these United States of America and consequently, the entire world. The little horn of Daniel 7 speaking blasphemies, was in fact the rise of the papacy within the Roman Empire among the nations of barbarians which invaded and subdued it. Biblical prophecy did not identify it as such in Daniel, because of God's foresight in regards to the establishment of the New Covenant in our Lord Christ, and the changes that would take place globally because of His coming. Therefore are we brought back to the four beasts of Daniel 7, in the rise of the fifth beast addressed in Revelation 13, the first beast of the book of Revelation. Addressing New covenant beasts of biblical prophecy who arise differently than Old
covenant ones, and will all end very differently as well.

The seven heads are if fact a direct reference back to the dragon addressed in Revelation 12 as well. As the dragon is the one who gives all these pagan beasts their seat and power. The dragon is the one who has seven heads, and he does not die when the fifth beast of biblical, first beast of Rev 13 receives a mortal wound to the head. The beast dies, not the dragon, the dragon simply begins raising another beast from with other kingdoms.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Yes, the dragon of Rev. 12, has seven heads, but the first beast of Rev. 13, emerges from the sea, which represents nations, multitudes, and languages, unlike the dragon who appears from heaven, (Rev. 12:3). This beast cannot be representative of one of its heads, since it has seven, not to mention the ten horns and the 42 months it is given to power, after it appears.

I will identify this beast, but before I do, I’m interested in what you think the head that had the fatal wound represents along with the ten horns and if the 42 months are literal or 1260 years, day for a year?

I’ll be anxious to hear from you.

The dragon has seven heads and ten horns as well. The 42 months, 1260 days/years, time, times, and half a time, are all the same period of 1260 year reign of the papacy from 538 to 1798 as prophetic historicism has concluded long ago. The deadly wound has been healing for centuries now, as the political power of the papacy has been growing as well on a global scale. A national Sunday law will announce the resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire unto the final global persecuting beast of biblical prophecy. Again, Revelation verses 17:7-11 are crucial to properly understanding that the 7 beasts, kings, heads, and mountains all represent the same thing. As they are either said to be each other, or spoken of interchangeably in these verses. They are the seven kingdoms through which Satan carries on his rebellion against God and His people specifically, on this earth.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I will have to do another post in a bit addressing the prophetic symbolism of kings, beasts, heads, and mountains, all of which represent kingdoms in other prophecies. Which is why I believe, they are used interchangeably above and or are said to be the same thing. This one is long enough and out is late.

 

[BobRyan]

Reddogs, I'm sure you have experience frustration on many occasions while you have shared from scripture the correct understanding on death, hell, and the sabbath, only to discover, that individuals will still adamantly defend what their religion teaches even through it is not supported by a "thus saith the Lord."

But are you any different than they when you promote our teaching that the first beast of Revelation 13 is the Rome Catholic Church, despite the prophecy foretelling the timing in which the first beast rises from the sea, will be after one of it's seven heads, (the papacy), wound is healed. You are well aware that wound was inflicted in 1798, and it did not start it's healing until 1929, under the Latern Tready. As of this day the wound is not fully healed nor will it be, until the Roman Catholic Church joins in consolidation with the six other heads (religions) and the ten kings (the ten toes of Dan. 2) which make up this beast.

Based on the specific timing in which the two beast in Revelation 13, are to appear on the worlds scene (some point in the future), our interpretation (SDA) of which you adamantly defend, is invalid.

Rev 13 has the dragon of Rev 12 already existing in Rev 13:1.
Rev 13 says the first beast arises out of the sea but does not say when it arises. Although the Rev 13 text says that the first beast did all of the 1260 years of damage already discussed in Rev 11 and again in Rev 12.

Rev 13 does not say that the first beast arises out of the sea after the first beast received at deadly wound. Rather it says that second beast arises after the first beast arose from the sea, received a deadly wound and did the 1260 years worth of damage.

Your statement that the first beast must joins in consolidation with 6 other heads (where each head is one of the 7 total heads in Dan 7), and the ten kingdoms of divided Rom unite, is also not in the text of Rev 13.

 

[Tigger Boy]

The prophecy does not say certain events forced this beast out of the sea. It simply says that this beast rises out of the sea, which I agree via Rev 17:15 includes peoples, nations, multitudes, and tongues. In Daniel 7, it was the four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea, that caused the four beasts to arise out of the throngs of humanity. In Rev 13 concerning the fifth beast of biblical prophecy, we are not given a cause or commotion for or of its rise. It is simply seen to rise out of the sea. Suggesting different reasons for its rise, than that of the four former beasts of Daniel 7.

This is in fact in direct relation to the fourth beast of Daniel 7 itself, which Daniel declares to be different than the rest.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

This fourth beast does not end like the beasts before it did. As Daniel 7 points out as well.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This beast will end when this world does by the judgement of God according to verses 9-11, being given to the burning flame as the beast of Rev 19:20, and 20:10 is also. That is because they are the same beast. Not identical, but both empowered by the dragon, as all the biblical beasts of prophecy were. Each tied together spiritually by paganism, and sun worship in particular. The fourth beast exists into the New covenant era, which does not rise, fall, or end like the beasts of the Old Covenant era. Being Satan's counterfeit to Christ's New Covenant spiritual kingdom, arising as a spiritual kingdom itself from within other kingdoms instead of conquering them from without, as the Old Covenant beasts did.

As the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ changed everything pertaining to the establishment of His universal kingdom on this earth, so the Devil changed the nature of his counterfeit kingdoms to mimic that of our Lords, and even in His name unto confusion and deception. God miraculously established His kingdom in this world of the Old Covenant with a literal nation, who fought literal wars with their enemies, conquering all while remaining faithful or chaste unto Him. But being described as a harlot or harlot when it was not, and being defeated by its enemies.

In this New Covenant era, our Lord Jesus Christ miraculously established His universal spiritual kingdom from within the Roman Empire, the very seat of the dragons fourth beast or head. Conquering Rome from within with the complete fall of paganism. Yet the Devil learned rapidly, went right back to his old tricks, and invaded our Lord's kingdom with world acceptance and the immediate apostasy that comes right along with it. Through which paganism marched right back into the front door of professed Christianity. Mimicking our Lord's establishment of His spiritual kingdom from within, with a new apostate and paganized version of worldly acceptable "Christianity". William Durant summarized the process fairly accurately in one paragraph.



The papacy is in fact the revised pagan Roman Empire. Who has been conquering her enemies and nations from within for centuries now. Who is now on the verge of conquering these United States of America and consequently, the entire world. The little horn of Daniel 7 speaking blasphemies, was in fact the rise of the papacy within the Roman Empire among the nations of barbarians which invaded and subdued it. Biblical prophecy did not identify it as such in Daniel, because of God's foresight in regards to the establishment of the New Covenant in our Lord Christ, and the changes that would take place globally because of His coming. Therefore are we brought back to the four beasts of Daniel 7, in the rise of the fifth beast addressed in Revelation 13, the first beast of the book of Revelation. Addressing New covenant beasts of biblical prophecy who arise differently than Old
covenant ones, and will all end very differently as well.

The seven heads are if fact a direct reference back to the dragon addressed in Revelation 12 as well. As the dragon is the one who gives all these pagan beasts their seat and power. The dragon is the one who has seven heads, and he does not die when the fifth beast of biblical, first beast of Rev 13 receives a mortal wound to the head. The beast dies, not the dragon, the dragon simply begins raising another beast from with other kingdoms.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


The dragon has seven heads and ten horns as well. The 42 months, 1260 days/years, time, times, and half a time, are all the same period of 1260 year reign of the papacy from 538 to 1798 as prophetic historicism has concluded long ago. The deadly wound has been healing for centuries now, as the political power of the papacy has been growing as well on a global scale. A national Sunday law will announce the resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire unto the final global persecuting beast of biblical prophecy. Again, Revelation verses 17:7-11 are crucial to properly understanding that the 7 beasts, kings, heads, and mountains all represent the same thing. As they are either said to be each other, or spoken of interchangeably in these verses. They are the seven kingdoms through which Satan carries on his rebellion against God and His people specifically, on this earth.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I will have to do another post in a bit addressing the prophetic symbolism of kings, beasts, heads, and mountains, all of which represent kingdoms in other prophecies. Which is why I believe, they are used interchangeably above and or are said to be the same thing. This one is long enough and out is late.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Amo2, again I appreciate your response, which was very informative, in that I know I am speaking with a fellow Adventists. Your response also leads me to think that you may even be a retired pastor or colleague professor. If not you are far more informed on apocalyptic prophecy than the average Adventists today. I commend you on that.

Your response to my question, What prophetic events forces the first beast of Rev. 13., up out of the sea, was, The prophecy does not say certain events forced this beast out of the sea. It simply says that this beast rises out of the sea. You are correct. However, it is said that one does not understand any one prophecy until they understand them all. Logic is that they must all dovetail together to form the bigger cohessive picture.

I studied my way into Adventism over forty years ago and will remain one, because I believe we understand the jest of the Bible better than any other religion. But I do not agree with our interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy using the Historical method of interpretation. That method lacks valid hermeneutics. Your response reflected this. Sorry, no disrespect intended. One only knows what they have exposure to.

In order for you to understand the foundation of what I believe, you must understand the hermeneutics that produce my interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy, of which I am very confident. Please consider the following carefully.

Who but God Has the Authority to Declare Chronological Order?
The visions within Daniel behave in a predictable way. Once this behavior is detected, it keeps us on track. It helps us decipher prophecies and enlightens us with information that we could not otherwise know. For example, one consistent behavior that occurs throughout the book of Daniel is that of rule one. Each prophecy has a beginning point and an ending point in time, and the events within each prophecy occur in the order in which they are given. This chronological behavior may sound simple, but it has profound ramifications. Consider the results of violating this behavior. If the events given within a particular prophecy do not occur in the order given, who has the authority to declare the order of events? Does anyone other than God have the authority to change the order that He created?

When the fulfilled elements in Daniel and Revelation are aligned with widely published historical records, the validity of Rule One proves true every time! The prophecies in Daniel began unfolding more than 2,600 years ago. Some of the prophecies in Revelation began unfolding 2,000 years ago. These lengthy periods of time contain a sufficient sample to validate the four rules that spring from Daniel’s architecture.
Rule Two: A prophecy or prophetic element within a prophecy is not fulfilled until all of the specifications are met. This includes the order of the events given within the prophecy. (Fulfillment)

Rule Three: Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic, or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a passage, the student must consider (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) a relevant text that defines the symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic. (Language types)

Rule Four: The presence or absence of the Jubilee Calendar determines how God measures time. If a prophetic time period occurs during the operation of the Jubilee Calendar (1437 B.C. - 1994), time is translated as a day for a year; otherwise, translation is not permitted. (Timing)

Now that you better understand my position on what I consider valid hermeneutics, there is one other key bit of information we need to keep in mind. It wasn’t until 1205, that the Bible was divided into chapters and three centuries latter 1551 into verse. The Geneva Bible was the first English Bible, with these changes and appeared in 1560. And while our modern Bibles provides us some distinct advantages, this does carry with it certain danger. There are places where those adding chapter, verse and sentence delineation, end a chapter or verse in an awkward position, which can cause us to separate in our minds things which the biblical authors intended to be read together.

With this background information out of the way let me begin with the prophetic world wide events that propel the first beast (FB) out of the sea, of which you are not aware, because the Millerites forced the trumpet judgements into the past as did the Historicist, to fit their own prophetic paradigm, in that Christ would return in 1844. Just as the four winds of heaven (God’s doing) prompted the four beast of Dan. 7 onto the world stage, God’s first four trumpet judgements will force the (FB) onto the world stage at God’s appointed time.

Rev. 8:2-9:21 is the prophecy revealing the trumpets judgements. The chapter division between the previous chapter should have been divided at the end of Rev. 8:1, the last chronological event of the previous prophecy. This prophecy begins with a heavenly event in which seven angles standing before God are given seven trumpets. It then proceeds in terminating the service at the altar of incense. This service was shadowed in the earthly sanctuary and was called the “Daily”, and provided God’s corporate atonement for the nation of Israel. This corporate atonement allowed individuals time to recognize their sins and present their individual sin offerings at the altar of burnt offerings, while living in the presence of God, without being destroyed. This service points back to the day that Adam sinned and Jesus stepped between the destroying angle that was to take the life of Adam and Eve the day they sinned. Jesus, since that day has been interceding in behalf of the human race. We as Adventist move vss. 2-5 out of their chronological order, which violates rule one. Following is our position as stated in SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7, pg. 787. “According to the view that Seventh- day Adventists have favored, the cessation of the angel’s ministry at the altar of incense is symbolic of the end of the ministration of Christ for mankind-the close of probation, the voices, thunderings, lightnings, and earthquake that ensue when when the angel cast the censer into the earth describe events to take place at the end of the seventh trumpet, following the opening of the temple (ch. 11:19);…”Some prefer to see ch. 8:3-5, not so much in its chronological, as in its logical, relationship to the seals and trumpets.”

Rev. 8:2- 5, reveals Christ’s end to corporate atonement, and when the censer is cast to the earth there will be literal world wide peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lighting, and an earthquake. This is one of many events that take place in heaven that are linked to earthly events within apocalyptic prophecy. God linked these events together since we cannot see into heaven, but students of prophecy who understand this, and witness these earthly events will understand what is taking place in heaven. Too, these events has to be world wide because God wants to get the attention of all of mankind because He has something very important to say. Seeing it on national news in some far distance place will not have the same effect as experiencing these events personally. These world wide events have not been witnessed to this day, therefore the first trumpet could not have happened as Adventist understand it.

Question? Does Alaric & Goths vs. western Rome, 395-419 A.D., sound like a reasonable fulfillment for the first trumpet? Does Genseric & Vandals vs. Western Rome in 419-456 A.D., seem like a logical fulfillment for the second? Be honest now.

After Jesus steps out of the way, ending corporate atonement for the human race, then the Father’s wrath will begin. These trumpets were shadowed also in the earthly sanctuary services during the first nine days of the seven month (Feast of Trumpets) alerting the people that the Day of Atonement was fast approaching on the tenth day. Note, the trumpets did not sound well in advance of the Day of Atonement, but rather nine days prior and followed by the Day of Atonement on the tenth day. We as Adventist teach the first trumpet sounded between 395-419 A.D. and the seventh 1844- New Earth. Question, what percentage of the eight billion people on earth today are aware of the sounding of these trumpets? I would guess very small, in the low single digits. And this percentage would most likely be older Adventist, as we hardly speak of them today. This is a shame, due to a lack of understanding of there timing and purpose.

The first trumpet is yet future, and the tribulation commences at the sounding of the first trumpet. Their purpose is to alert all of mankind that the time has come to judge the living as probation draws to a close. The first trumpet is a meteorite shower which burns up a third of the earth. The second an asteroid that impacts an ocean and a third of the sea life and the ships in that ocean are destroyed. The third is another asteroid that impacts a continent, breaking up subterranean crust and spilling buried pollutants into aquatic steams, and many people die of poisoning. The forth trumpet, due to the first three trumpets will cause ash and smoke to rise up into earth’s jet streams that circle the earth, darkness will cover much of the earth and crops will not reach maturity, thus food will be in much less supply causing famine.

It would be reasonable to conclude that manufacturing, transportation, communication, electrical grids, banking, medical services, and food supplies will be severely crippled worldwide, the magnitude of destruction can only be compared to Noah’s flood. It will be easily seen that the earth has been placed in survival mode. And this is exactly where God wants it to be, for then many will realize their need of a savior, and the everlasting gospel will go out to all the world, and many for the first time will be willing to consider and except it, in numbers never before witnessed.

Satan is much more informed of God’s closing events than we as Adventists. He has been standing over the sea of humanity anticipating the trumpet judgements to come, and has a plan of his own to thwart God’s desire to save as many individuals as possible. He will lead many to reason that mankind must enact sinless laws to appease God in order that His judgements will stop, least the whole world be destroyed. Therefore, he will lead religious and civil authorities to form the (FB) which will arise out of the sea of humanity. This beast consist of seventeen players, the seven heads having the name of blasphemy are the seven basic religions of the world, the ten horns are ten kings (Leaders of Nations). These ten kings are the ten toes in Daniel 2, golden image.

The (FB) is empowered by Satan as it is his brain child, and prophecy informs us the whole world will worship the dragon because he had given power to the (FB) and will worship the (FB) as well. Too, the (FB) is given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies (to enact laws contrary to God) and to exercise its authority for forty-two literal months. To wage war against God’s holy people and conquer them.


(will continue in next post)

 

[Tigger Boy]

Using the hermeneutics previous mentioned I will demonstrate how this interpretation is supported by prophecy. Rev. 13:1 is not the beginning of a prophecy, but rather a portion of one. The prophecy of which it is a part, begins in Rev. 12:7 -14:5, and consists of five events that occur in chronological order.

1. The devil is cast out of Heaven (Rev. 12: 7-12)
2.The devil persecutes the woman for 1,260 years (verses 12:13-16)
3. The devil wages war on the remnant of the woman (verses 12:17-13:10)
4. The devil physically appears, sets up his theocracy and implements the mark of the beast (verses 13:11-18)
5. The 144,000 servant/prophets celebrate in a victory ceremony in Heaven(verses 14:1-14:5)

As you know Rev. 17 gives more details on the (FB) on which the harlot sets, let’s consider these specifications and see if my interpretation meets those specifications.

Rev. 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

{9} “When the time comes for fulfillment, Revelation’s story will not be hard to understand. However, understanding these matters beforehand requires considerable study and diligence. Therefore, John, consider the composite beast which the great harlot will control. The seven heads on the composite beast are seven mountains. The seven heads can be described as seven mountains because a mountain is changeless, unmovable, and steadfast like God. A religious system can be compared to a mountain because people look up to their religious leaders much like ancient travelers looked up to the mountains for navigation. People want their religion to be changeless, unmovable and steadfast (that is, in-fallible, true and towering above all others) like a mountain. From ancient times, mountains have been intimately involved with religious beliefs. Before Vespasian’s army destroyed Jerusalem in A.D. 70, the city was called ‘Mount Zion’ for an important reason. It was God’s dwelling place. King Solomon’s temple was located on top of Mount Moriah, God’s holy hill. Pagan worshipers frequently ascended to mountain tops an high hills to meet with their gods because they believed their gods lived there. It is interesting that even today, the most important building in the United States is called “Capitol Hill” for in this building, the nation’s laws are created.

We already know two facts about the seven heads. First, in Revelation 13:1 we find they have blasphemous names written on them. This indicates they are religious in nature and they
are anti-Christ. Second, we know that one head was wounded,but the deadly wound was healed when the composite beast comes up from the sea. The head (or hill) that was wounded is the papacy. There are seven heads, that is, there are seven of the same thing. Because the wounded/healed head represents a religious system (the papacy), the remaining six heads must also represent religious systems.

Rev. 17:10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

{10} “The seven heads are also seven kings. Each religious system is a kingdom having subjects (church members). Each religious system has its own order and authority. When a church member rebels against the system, he may be cast out of the system, excommunicated or killed depending upon the religious system that he belongs to. The seven heads are described as seven mountains and seven kings because these definitions narrow the solution to one right answer. Each blasphemous head/mountain/king is a
religious system having its own hierarchy and laws.” The angel continued, “Five religious systems have fallen (have been exposed as false) and one religious system exists which has not yet become false. Later on, it will also be exposed as false and another regious system will appear, but it will only exist for a short time.”
When Jesus came to Earth, five religious systems fell. In other words, Jesus declared five religious systems were false. These five systems are: Atheism, Heathenism, Judaism, Eastern Mysticism, and Islam.* Atheism says there is no God. Jesus says this is not true. Heathenism says there are many Gods,
but Jesus says this is not true. Judaism and Islam teach that salvation comes through obedience to specific rules, but Jesus says that salvation comes through faith in Him. Eastern Mysticism teaches that the soul is immortal, it lives forever. After enough generations, man can become a divine being, but Jesus
says none of this is true. Rather, a divine being became a man to save mankind from the penalty for sin.
The sixth head (Christianity) was just beginning in John’s day. Eventually, this head was called the Roman Catholic Church. John was a charter member of this religious system, but it followed in Israel’s footsteps. It became a false religion and blasphemous over time. The power of the Roman Catholic Church was severely wounded in 1798, but the deadly wound will be healed during the fourth trumpet. The seventh head appeared on Earth around 1500 A.D. and it is called Protestantism. When we consider that six of the seven religious systems have endured for 2,000 years or more, the life span of Protestantism is short.

Rev. 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

{11} “Lucifer is the lamblike beast described in Revelation 13:11. He once was visible and now, he is not visible, but at the fifth trumpet he will become visible. At first, the devil will masquerade as Almighty God. He will be far superior to the seven religious systems of the world and his supernatural powers will eclipse the prowess of all mankind and naturally, he will become “an eighth king.” The devil is described as an eighth king who belongs to the seven heads for an important reason. In Prophecy 2, a little horn appeared and it grew in power and as it did, it uprooted three of the original ten horns. This made the little horn an eighth king. The eighth horn dominated the seven horns for 1,260 years.Similarly, the devil will start small. He will physically appear and dominate the seven heads. During the sixth trumpet, thedevil will establish an eighth religious system (the harlot, his great theocracy) and he will rule over the religious systems of
the world. Of course, the devil will be destroyed at the end, but not by human power.


Rev. 17:12-13 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength to the beast.

{12} “The ten horns on the composite beast represent ten kings (the ten toes in Daniel 2) which Lucifer will appoint as agents of his government. Presuming sovereign authority, the devil will dissolve the governments of the world and direct these ten kings to oversee his one world church state. {13} These ten kings will have one purpose. They will do everything the devil wishes. {14} “When Jesus appears in clouds of glory, these ten kings will unite with the devil in a violent attack on the Lamb, but the Lamb will destroy them because the Creator is Lord of lords and King of kings. When Jesus returns, the wicked will see Jesus and they will also see His 144,000 servant/prophets who were taken to Heaven at the seventh trumpet.”

Just one more detail and I’ll close. You stated that the forty-two months in which the (FB) is given power, covered the time between 538-1798. Historicist do this because their law for interpreting time is invalid. Applying that invalid hermeneutic puts that time event in contradiction with the fact that it is only granted power after it comes up out of the sea, after one of its heads, the papacy, fatal wound is healed. You know the wound was inflicted in 1798, therefore the forty-two months could not have started in 538 before the wound was ever inflicted. That makes no sense.

Too, consider the chronology within this prophecy, Rev. 12:7-14:5. The devil persecutes the woman for 1,260 years (verses 12:13-16, 538-1798) followed by, the devil waging war on the remnant of the woman (verses 12:17-13:10), forty-two literal months in which he well conquer the saints during the tribulation. But his victory is short for Jesus will destroy him and his followers and take the saints home to New Jerusalem.

This being new to you, most certainly will be hard to grasp at first, but read it though a couple of times and see that prophecy will make more sense just as it reads.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Rev 13 has the dragon of Rev 12 already existing in Rev 13:1.
Rev 13 says the first beast arises out of the sea but does not say when it arises. Although the Rev 13 text says that the first beast did all of the 1260 years of damage already discussed in Rev 11 and again in Rev 12.

Rev 13 does not say that the first beast arises out of the sea after the first beast received at deadly wound. Rather it says that second beast arises after the first beast arose from the sea, received a deadly wound and did the 1260 years worth of damage.

Your statement that the first beast must joins in consolidation with 6 other heads (where each head is one of the 7 total heads in Dan 7), and the ten kingdoms of divided Rom unite, is also not in the text of Rev 13.

Bob, so glad we are dialoging in a written format, because what you claim I said can be shown to be a
misunderstanding on your part. But first, you state, "Rev 13 says the first beast arises out of the sea but does not say when it arises. Although the Rev 13 text says that the first beast did all of the 1260 years of damage already discussed in Rev 11 and again in Rev 12".

Rev. 13:3, states in was after one of its heads which had, [past tense] a fatal wound was healed [past tense]. Quite clear.

And you are correct when you say, "Rev 13 does not say that the first beast arises out of the sea after the first beast received at deadly wound." Nor did I say that if that's what your implying. But rather the texts says this beast arises after one of its heads fatal wound has been healed. (past tense)


You go on to say, "Rather it says that second beast arises after the first beast arose from the sea, received a deadly wound and did the 1260 years worth of damage." Yes, the second beast coming up out of the earth vs. 11, will appear after the first beast, but you read vs. 3, which say, "One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had (past tense) a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed (past tense). You interpret as, "One of the heads of the beast will received a fatal wound which will be healed after it arises from the sea. That is a blatant distortion of the texts which a unbiased jury would agree.

And you last statement is a total distortion on anything I have ever said. You fail to grasp that the first beast when it appears on earth consist of the seven heads and ten horns. It is not some earlier beast that then gathers in the seven heads and ten horns. No! No1 No!.