You cannot serve God and Mammon.

[Carl Emerson]

No one should take payment for being 'spiritual'.

Discuss...

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

No one should take payment for being 'spiritual'.

Discuss...

True - God's word and truth are not for sale. There seems to be a strong vibe from Paul though that kingdom workers (e.g. pastors) should be paid/compensated properly:

• 1 Corinthians 9:13–14
• Galatians 6:6
• 1 Timothy 5:17–18

Yet for himself Paul does at places emphasise he earned a living not to be a burden to anyone:

• 1 Thessalonians 2:9

I would imagine it's a relative thing - I struggle with the situation where poor Africans support a lavishly living pastor. But a very affluent congregation paying a meagre wage to their pastor also doesn't sit well.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Acts 8:
18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could acquire the gift of God with money!

Are churches not paying for a gift of God (if the Pastor is any good ?)

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Acts 8:
18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could acquire the gift of God with money!

Are churches not paying for a gift of God (if the Pastor is any good ?)

In Acts 8 Simon tries to buy God's Holy Spirit (= a spiritual gift) - a direct gift from God can never be purchased as Peter confirms.

Paying a wage to a pastor so he can preach/pastor a congregation is facilitating/enabling his work, and as our money is God's money it makes sense to use our income to advance the Kingdom as our actions are also supposed to advance it. But providing the pastor's wage is not the same as 'buying' God's gift. A pastor does not personally hand out the Holy Spirit or healing etc. to his congregation. It's a subtle difference though - I see the point of you tabling the question.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Along those lines, some churches do like to sell oil to foolish virgins .. so to speak.

 

[Lost Witness]

A workman is worthy his wages but nobody should feel they need to pay x person to learn about christ or to be healed or delivered from bondage Matthew 10:8

 

[Lost Witness]

I've seen some offer VIP access to full teachings etc for x amount or others give free samples of teachings then put a heavy sum on a year program.
Anything the Lord has given should never be behind a paywall or have a price tag
He gives to us each freely for the edification of the body and it has caused me to stumble many times when I a man of little means sees all these programs where people are 'growing' and I sit here struggling to even hear the Lord.
It frustrates me

 

[Carl Emerson]

I've seen some offer VIP access to full teachings etc for x amount or others give free samples of teachings then put a heavy sum on a year program.
Anything the Lord has given should never be behind a paywall or have a price tag
He gives to us each freely for the edification of the body and it has caused me to stumble many times when I a man of little means sees all these programs where people are 'growing' and I sit here struggling to even hear the Lord.
It frustrates me

A Church I attended had a mens meeting at lunchtime in a Cafe.

It was embarrassing - I went along and couldn't afford a coffee.

We are lightyears away from...

2 Cor 8​

13 For this is not for the relief of others and for your hardship, but by way of equality—
14 at this present time your abundance will serve as assistance for their need, so that their abundance also may serve as assistance for your need, so that there may be equality;
15 as it is written: “The one who had gathered much did not have too much, and the one who had gathered little did not have too little.”

But that is a side issue...

 

[Carl Emerson]

In Acts 8 Simon tries to buy God's Holy Spirit (= a spiritual gift) - a direct gift from God can never be purchased as Peter confirms.

Paying a wage to a pastor so he can preach/pastor a congregation is facilitating/enabling his work, and as our money is God's money it makes sense to use our income to advance the Kingdom as our actions are also supposed to advance it. But providing the pastor's wage is not the same as 'buying' God's gift. A pastor does not personally hand out the Holy Spirit or healing etc. to his congregation. It's a subtle difference though - I see the point of you tabling the question.

The difference I like to express is that Pastoring is a career option that some are encouraged to attain to - you know how it goes - 'don't touch the Lord's anointed' - 'His word is God's Word to you' - 'The Labourer is worthy of his hire' - His Harley is God's blessing' - when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.

Pastors are paid to pastor.

This seems a far cry from ministries being supported by the congregation as there is no relationship between the quality of the spiritual ministry and the support received. It is a set contract, rather than an expression of love from the heart of the flock.

Personally I don't see the biblical justification for such a role being a professional. Rather the opposite.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

The difference I like to express is that Pastoring is a career option that some are encouraged to attain to - you know how it goes - 'don't touch the Lord's anointed' - 'His word is God's Word to you' - 'The Labourer is worthy of his hire' - His Harley is God's blessing' - when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.

Pastors are paid to pastor.

This seems a far cry from ministries being supported by the congregation as there is no relationship between the quality of the spiritual ministry and the support received. It is a set contract, rather than an expression of love from the heart of the flock.

Personally I don't see the biblical justification for such a role being a professional. Rather the opposite.

The pattern I see in the NT writings is that it is proper/prudent to pay/support the kingdom workers working in/among/commissioned by your fellowship, but at the same time it's also best to refrain from demanding/suggesting others pay me/my church.

Although I hope every pastor preaches in line with God's will and the Bible, I would never equate the pastor's words with God's words. Only for a prophet I could do so as a prophets are supposed to literally speak God's words without mixing in anything of their own.

Paying a wage to others besides a professional pastor may create extra complications: where to draw the line between (large nr of) volunteers and the (few) paid admin staff? For tasks that need a full/day-time presence it's challenging as apart from retirees or wives with a bread-winning husband, people need to make ends meet.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The pattern I see in the NT writings is that it is proper/prudent to pay/support the kingdom workers working in/among/commissioned by your fellowship, but at the same time it's also best to refrain from demanding/suggesting others pay me/my church.

I am trying to suggest that Paying and Supporting are two different things.

A congregation may be operating as a loving community that makes sure the Pastor is not in need.

Another congregation has no idea what the Pastor's needs are and feel it is not their business as it is all taken care of - very unlikely to be a sense of community and family there...

 

[Lost Witness]

I am trying to suggest that Paying and Supporting are two different things.

A congregation may be operating as a loving community that makes sure the Pastor is not in need.

Another congregation has no idea what the Pastor's needs are and feel it is not their business as it is all taken care of - very unlikely to be a sense of community and family there...

Sounds like a lack of unity in such a circumstance.
The pastor has needs just as the flock and the congregation as a whole should support each other.
Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sounds like a lack of unity in such a circumstance.
The pastor has needs just as the flock and the congregation as a whole should support each other.
Or am I misunderstanding?

You are right on the button.

 

[Lost Witness]

This conversation just makes me think about psalms 133....do you mind if I pm you, carl?