Jesus & Social Justice

[Larniavc]

She was stoned for infidelity not rape.

Please learn what rape means. And how people might react to it.

 

[Colo Millz]

He doesn’t prevent rapes from happening. If I had his power I would stop rapes from happening. So yes, in this case I appear to know better.

[O]ne is confronted with only this bare choice: either one embraces the mystery of created freedom and accepts that the union of free spiritual creatures with the God of love is a thing so wonderful that the power of creation to enslave itself to death must be permitted by God; or one judges that not even such rational freedom is worth the risk of a cosmic fall and the terrible injustice of the consequences that follow from it. But, then, since there can be no context in which such a judgment can be meaningfully made, no perspective from which a finite Euclidean mind can weigh eschatological glory in the balance against earthly suffering, the rejection of God on these grounds cannot really be a rational decision, but only a moral pathos.

Hart, David Bentley. The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami? (p. 69). Eerdmans. Kindle Edition.

 

[Colo Millz]

The next verse, Deu 22:25, states that the man only must die who lay with her If the deed occurred in open country, where few people would have been present to hear a cry for help. In that case, the law presumes the woman is guiltless. The people are only to execute the perpetrator.

John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016), Dt 22:25.

 

[Larniavc]

[O]ne is confronted with only this bare choice

No. No one isn’t. I can think of several other choices.

 

[Larniavc]

The next verse, Deu 22:25, states that the man only must die who lay with her If the deed occurred in open country, where few people would have been present to hear a cry for help. In that case, the law presumes the woman is guiltless. The people are only to execute the perpetrator.

John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016), Dt 22:25.

So cities are rape friendly. That’s not better though is it?

 

[Stopped_lurking]

[O]ne is confronted with only this bare choice: either one embraces the mystery of created freedom and accepts that the union of free spiritual creatures with the God of love is a thing so wonderful that the power of creation to enslave itself to death must be permitted by God; or one judges that not even such rational freedom is worth the risk of a cosmic fall and the terrible injustice of the consequences that follow from it. But, then, since there can be no context in which such a judgment can be meaningfully made, no perspective from which a finite Euclidean mind can weigh eschatological glory in the balance against earthly suffering, the rejection of God on these grounds cannot really be a rational decision, but only a moral pathos.

Hart, David Bentley. The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami? (p. 69). Eerdmans. Kindle Edition.

... since there can be no context in which such a judgment can be meaningfully made... This assertion is carrying a lot on its shoulders, but I see no reason to believe it to be true. Does the author go on and defend it elsewhere in the text?

 

[Meowzltov]

Rape victim stoned to death.

Did you just not bother to read what I wrote?

 

[Larniavc]

Did you just not bother to read what I wrote?

I did. I think it’s wrong. Did you read Deuteronomy 22:24?

 

[Amo2]

He doesn’t prevent rapes from happening. If I had his power I would stop rapes from happening. So yes, in this case I appear to know better.

He has appointed a day upon which He will prevent all sin from ever happening again, and execute judgment upon all flesh and this entire world. Ending both for eternity. Until then, the issue of sin and sinners must be played out once and for all time. After which it shall never rise again, the issue being fully understood and addressed by all creation. There being no excuse of ignorance concerning it any longer, and therefore no need of any toleration concerning it any more, ever again. The all important issue of freedom of choice even in defiance of God Himself, being fully addressed and dealt with for all creation to see and understand, need be never arise again and or tolerated again.

Which as is obvious, God Himself considered paramount enough to allow for the suffering which resulted from its tolerance, upon this world alone. In order apparently to settle the issue beyond all question, once and for all time through the events transpiring upon this rebellious world. God Himself suffering more than all and any other throughout this apparently, necessary process intricately related to the all important issue of freedom of choice. Upholding His divine standards and the true, righteous, pure, just, merciful, and Holy character of His being. Yet also descending to the lowest form of a servant of rebellious sinners, unto salvation for each and every one of them, by dying the death their sins bring forth by way of separation from God. Who alone creates and or sustains life.

You do not know better at all. You cannot even begin to imagine how far above your own thoughts and knowledge, God's thoughts, intentions, purposes, love, mercy, judgment, and foresight are. The things being addressed and settled here upon this planet, will have eternal consequences far beyond our ability to even begin to comprehend.

Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. 3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. 4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. 7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh. 8 The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth. 9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it. 10 The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in. 11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone. 12 In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction. 13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done. 14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea. 15 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea. 16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously. 17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. 18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Don't worry, every wrong will be made right, mercy and justice have already met and have, are, and will continue to be perfectly worked out for all in and through Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen!

 

[Colo Millz]

... since there can be no context in which such a judgment can be meaningfully made... This assertion is carrying a lot on its shoulders, but I see no reason to believe it to be true. Does the author go on and defend it elsewhere in the text?

I don't think so. I think the preceding sentence was the main point anyway.

 

[Amo2]

Ah, so it is their fault. Silly me.

Yes. If you have seen and experienced God's miraculous power, deliverance, and leadership, and entered into covenant with Him, then you will listen to and obey His commands. If you choose not to, then there of course consequences. Nevertheless the Lord is bountifully merciful to forgive, heal, and restore. He Himself has been misunderstood, falsely accused, mocked, abused, tortured, and crucified by wicked and rebellious humanity. That none may accuse him of not knowing and or experiencing the humiliations and suffering involved with the evil acts of fallen humanity. So also that He might be a faithful High Priest unto salvation for all who accept this gift of comfort and surety. From Him alone who was and is willing to suffer the dregs of the lowest points of humanity in order to save, even those who abused him if possible, from the loss of eternal life and those things above and beyond our imaginations for those who love and desire to be with Him forever. Amen!

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature ofangels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertainingto God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yetwithout sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Larniavc]

He has appointed a day upon which He will prevent all sin from ever happening again, and execute judgment upon all flesh and this entire world.

And while we wait for that women keep getting raped. As I said. I would stop it straight away if I had his power.

But I don’t so women will have to keep on getting raped.

 

[Larniavc]

You do not know better at all.

Then why would I stop the rapes now and not in some unknown point in the future?

 

[Stopped_lurking]

I don't think so. I think the preceding sentence was the main point anyway.

Does he give an explicit argument for what those two options entail and why that are the only two options then? Or is that also just an assertion?

 

[Larniavc]

Yes

Doesn’t seem very compassionate to blame a rape victim for being raped.

 

[Colo Millz]

Does he give an explicit argument for what those two options entail and why that are the only two options then? Or is that also just an assertion?

It is a conclusion which is the result of the preceding 80 pages. He spends the entire book kind of presenting those two alternatives.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

It is a conclusion which is the result of the preceding 80 pages. He spends the entire book kind of presenting those two alternatives.

So why would you think that sentence would carry some kind of weight by itself? Does the earlier pages also present an argument regarding my first objection? Otherwise the conclusion is unsupported.

 

[Colo Millz]

So why would you think that sentence would carry some kind of weight by itself? Does the earlier pages also present an argument regarding my first objection? Otherwise the conclusion is unsupported.

Yes, I would say it does certainly present that argument, however I unfortunately do not have time to summarize it.

Could you maybe outline your objections to it, and we can clarify?

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Yes, I would say it does certainly present that argument, however I unfortunately do not have time to summarize it.

Could you maybe outline your objections to it, and we can clarify?

What is a Euclidean mind (outside of the the brothers Karamazov, that literary construct is not a accepted model of minds that I know of) and why should we weigh eschatological glory against earthly suffering. Even if we go with the rather undefined concept of a rational mind, why wouldn't it be a able to weigh eschatological glory against earthly suffering? I'll check back tomorrow

 

[Colo Millz]

What is a Euclidean mind (outside of the the brothers Karamazov, that literary construct is not a accepted model of minds that I know of) and why should we weigh eschatological glory against earthly suffering. Even if we go with the rather undefined concept of a rational mind, why wouldn't it be a able to weigh eschatological glory against earthly suffering? I'll check back tomorrow

This is an extremely dense and sophisticated pair of sentences I am not sure my childish brain can understand ...

However I think this is your main question: "why should we weigh eschatological glory against earthly suffering"?

To “weigh” eschatological glory against earthly suffering is to ask whether the promise of ultimate redemption or joy can justify the immense pain of the present world.

In The Brothers Karamazov Ivan refuses this weighing:

“I don’t want harmony. I don’t accept it. I return the ticket.”

He’s saying: even if all suffering is redeemed in the final accounting, a rational moral sense cannot accept a system that requires children’s torture as its precondition. That’s the "Euclidean" protest - the "economy" of God is unacceptable - to Ivan.

Ivan's position is that the Euclidean mind sees two incommensurable magnitudes - infinite glory versus finite but unbearable suffering - and cannot integrate them.

What Hart is saying in the passage I quoted is - I think - even if that is true, we still need to make a choice. The choice is between the view that freedom, as an infinitely precious gift from God, outweighs the immense pain of the world, or it does not.