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Israel is losing Americans (support)

FAITH-IN-HIM

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Yes. There is a shrinking but vocal group that seems completely fine with what's happenning over there.
Those who support Israel do not condone killing, bombing, or harm to innocent lives; we oppose such actions, as well as starvation and poverty. Any claim that we accept these actions is false.

However, we are opposed to a return to the status quo that existed prior to the war.

I think you will agree with me that Hamas does not pursue peaceful relations between Israel and Palestine. Furthermore, you will agree with me that the well-being and peaceful coexistence of Palestinians and Isreal will improve if Hamas were not in control of Gaza.

The key question is: How can Hamas be removed from Gaza. Hamas is unlikely to leave Gaza without resistance, so if not IDF, who will be responsible for ensuring that Hamas departs from Gaza?
 
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rambot

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Those who support Israel do not condone killing, bombing, or harm to innocent lives; we oppose such actions, as well as starvation and poverty. Any claim that we accept these actions is false.

However, we are opposed to a return to the status quo that existed prior to the war.

I think you will agree with me that Hamas does not pursue peaceful relations between Israel and Palestine. Furthermore, you will agree with me that the well-being and peaceful coexistence of Palestinians and Isreal will improve if Hamas were not in control of Gaza.

The key question is: How can Hamas be removed from Gaza. Hamas is unlikely to leave Gaza without resistance, so if not IDF, who will be responsible for ensuring that Hamas departs from Gaza?
I am gonna posit that Likud is as MUCH, if not MORE of a problem than Hamas.
 
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rambot

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Those who support Israel do not condone killing, bombing, or harm to innocent lives; we oppose such actions, as well as starvation and poverty. Any claim that we accept these actions is false.
Perhaps I was speaking monolitically, but there are ABSOLUTELY posters in CF who've indicated they (at LEAST) passively condone it.
 
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MotoToTheMax

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Perhaps I was speaking monolitically, but there are ABSOLUTELY posters in CF who've indicated they (at LEAST) passively condone it.
I remember one absolute gem I read here. "All Palestinians are terrorists and their babies."
I don't know how else to give carte blanche to any action taken if every living person there is someone you immediately think is a terrorist.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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I am gonna posit that Likud is as MUCH, if not MORE of a problem than Hamas.
And this is where you and I get separated and go different way because I do not think you and I can have a logical debate on this.

Likud is a political party that reached power through democratic elections by the citizens of Israel. In contrast, Hamas is a terrorist organization that maintains control through the oppression of its citizens. Comparing a legitimately elected democratic government to a terrorist group creates a substantial disparity, making it challenging for you and I to engage in a constructive discussion on this matter.
 
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DaisyDay

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Those who support Israel do not condone killing, bombing, or harm to innocent lives; we oppose such actions, as well as starvation and poverty. Any claim that we accept these actions is false.
Obviously, some people who support Israel do do condone the killing, bombing and harm to innocent lives - they excuse themselves by declaring that no Palestinian is innocent. I do not support this version of Israel nor do I support Hamas.

Trump supports Israel and the killings, etc.
 
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rambot

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And this is where you and I get separated and go different way because I do not think you and I can have a logical debate on this.

Likud is a political party that reached power through democratic elections by the citizens of Israel.
Perhaps you have a sense on how Netenyahu manipulated the courts. Perhaps you've seen some of the outrageously dehumanizing statements coming out of that government.


In contrast, Hamas is a terrorist organization that maintains control through the oppression of its citizens. Comparing a legitimately elected democratic government to a terrorist group creates a substantial disparity, making it challenging for you and I to engage in a constructive discussion on this matter.
I appreciate the candor, but I'm not too concerned about whether they are legitimately elected if they are dehumanizing the victims of those bombings. And I chose the word "Dehumanizing" because that is what they say. They wouldn't have the political sway they would have if they always spoke of Palestinians as actual people.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Obviously, some people who support Israel do do condone the killing, bombing and harm to innocent lives - they excuse themselves by declaring that no Palestinian is innocent. I do not support this version of Israel nor do I support Hamas.

Trump supports Israel and the killings, etc.
There are extremists who support Israel and believe all Palestinians are guilty, just as there are Palestinian supporters who see all Israelis as guilty.

I'm not sure why you mentioned President Trump. Less than a year ago, a Democratic congresswoman referred to the sitting president as "Genocide Joe. By the way, what happened to her? She's no longer in the news.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Perhaps you have a sense on how Netenyahu manipulated the courts. Perhaps you've seen some of the outrageously dehumanizing statements coming out of that government.



I appreciate the candor, but I'm not too concerned about whether they are legitimately elected if they are dehumanizing the victims of those bombings. And I chose the word "Dehumanizing" because that is what they say. They wouldn't have the political sway they would have if they always spoke of Palestinians as actual people.
Clearly you don’t have any respect for democratic process in Israel.

I disagree with Benjamin Netanyahu and the policies of the Likud party. It is unfortunate that over the past 25 years, Likud has remained dominant in Israeli politics, and no viable alternative has emerged to form a coalition capable of challenging Likud's leadership.

However, the Likud has been legitimately elected for the past 25 years, consistently coming to power through the expressed will of its people. Comparing them to Hamas show how little you value democratic process in Israel.
 
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rambot

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Clearly you don’t have any respect for democratic process in Israel.

I disagree with Benjamin Netanyahu and the policies of the Likud party. It is unfortunate that over the past 25 years, Likud has remained dominant in Israeli politics, and no viable alternative has emerged to form a coalition capable of challenging Likud's leadership.

However, the Likud has been legitimately elected for the past 25 years, consistently coming to power through the expressed will of its people. Comparing them to Hamas show how little you value democratic process in Israel.
I'm not comparing the democtratic process....

I'm saying Likud is AS RESPONSIBLE for what's happenning there as Hamas...likely moreso.

Do you agree with that point or not?
 
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DaisyDay

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There are extremists who support Israel and believe all Palestinians are guilty, just as there are Palestinian supporters who see all Israelis as guilty.

I'm not sure why you mentioned President Trump. Less than a year ago, a Democratic congresswoman referred to the sitting president as "Genocide Joe. By the way, what happened to her? She's no longer in the news.
Because Trump is all in with the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. He cares about the development opportunities.

Biden did not do enough - by a long, long shot - to rein in Netanyahu, but Trump is holding "peace talks" with only one side on how to divide the goods between them.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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I'm not comparing the democtratic process....

I'm saying Likud is AS RESPONSIBLE for what's happenning there as Hamas...likely moreso.

Do you agree with that point or not?

Yes, the IDF is responsible for the current situation in Gaza, including starvation, fatalities, and humanitarian concerns, as these outcomes are directly linked to the conflict between Hamas and Israel. However, questions remain regarding whether the Israeli government has viable alternatives to military retaliation. This reflects the broader realities of warfare, where innocent civilians often bear significant consequences.

Israeli government has a duty to protect its citizens, even if that requires engaging in war with another country.

The Israeli government cannot permit a foreign nation or group to launch rockets at its cities repeatedly. Since 2005, more than 20,000 rockets have been fired toward Israel by Hamas. The Israeli government considers it necessary to respond to such attacks, even if these actions result in significant impacts on other regions and populations.

In 2005, the Israeli government engaged in negotiations with Hamas and the United States to refrain from entering Gaza and to allow the establishment of a local government. Between 2006 and 2022, during this period, Hamas governed its people, constructed tunnels beneath hospitals, and launched over 20,000 rockets.

During this period, Palestinians lived in poverty and faced food shortages, while international aid continued to be sent to the region. Majority of the aid was used by Hamas for military actions against Israel, rather than being allocated toward humanitarian needs.

And today innocent Palestinians is suffering because what Hamas did. Israeli government has no choice but to retaliate.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Because Trump is all in with the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. He cares about the development opportunities.

Biden did not do enough - by a long, long shot - to rein in Netanyahu, but Trump is holding "peace talks" with only one side on how to divide the goods between them.
Who do you think should be in the peace talk?
 
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BCP1928

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Who do you think should be in the peace talk?
Us, I I imagine. Israel is our client state so we would pretty much be expected to guarantee its future good behavior. God forbid we send someone like Trump, but I suppose it will have to be so.
 
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DaisyDay

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rambot

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Yes, the IDF is responsible for the current situation in Gaza, including starvation, fatalities, and humanitarian concerns, as these outcomes are directly linked to the conflict between Hamas and Israel. However, questions remain regarding whether the Israeli government has viable alternatives to military retaliation. This reflects the broader realities of warfare, where innocent civilians often bear significant consequences.
As evidenced by what exactly in Israel? To call this war suggests that there is, infact, conflict. There's no conflict. Hamas can do virtually nothing. They hurt basically nobody. This is just a slaughter.



Israeli government has a duty to protect its citizens, even if that requires engaging in war with another country.

The Israeli government cannot permit a foreign nation or group to launch rockets at its cities repeatedly. Since 2005, more than 20,000 rockets have been fired toward Israel by Hamas. The Israeli government considers it necessary to respond to such attacks, even if these actions result in significant impacts on other regions and populations.
I would suggest that, while 20,000 seems like a terrifying number (and while I personally would rather not want ANY attacks), it could be argued that their impact has been nominal. For instance, I am VERY curious how many of those rocket attacks were actually ANY kind of successful.
By way of example, from 2005-2007 there were about 2700 attacks that led to 4 Isarel deaths.
Shall we compare how many Gazans died due to IDF actions during that time?


In 2005, the Israeli government engaged in negotiations with Hamas and the United States to refrain from entering Gaza and to allow the establishment of a local government. Between 2006 and 2022, during this period, Hamas governed its people, constructed tunnels beneath hospitals, and launched over 20,000 rockets.

During this period, Palestinians lived in poverty and faced food shortages, while international aid continued to be sent to the region. Majority of the aid was used by Hamas for military actions against Israel, rather than being allocated toward humanitarian needs.
Do you have a NONIsraeli based source to support that?


And today innocent Palestinians is suffering because what Hamas did. Israeli government has no choice but to retaliate.
I'm sorry. I never really buy that; not the "no choice". Also, they get 100% authority over what their "retaliation" looks like. I understand the "need to respond"....that that's probably the extent of our agreement on this.

If that retaliation looks like TWENTY times the number of deaths, I'm sorry but I don't accept that that was "their only choice". (374 Isarelis, 7400ish Palestinians fatalities...... OR 6700 Israeli injuries compared to 163,000 Palestinians)
Data on casualties | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Occupied Palestinian Territory
Play around with the settings, time frames, and locations to get clear ideas of how "slaughter-like" this conflict is as opposed to "war-like".

When Isael passively allows their settlers to terrorize and steal land and houses from Palestinians/Gazans, that is not a NECESSARY "choice". They could choose to respect the boundaries and keep their settlers on the leash some of them seem to need. When there are reports of IDF Soldiers randomly breaking the arms of children while out on patrols. When I first read that report, I nearly threw up and the brutal ugliness that IDF soldiers are willing to stoop to. I have been trying to find that report back but it's tough to find.

Or just poor, poor treatment of children:
Israel: Security Forces Abuse Palestinian Children
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Actual representatives of Gaza. Trump has proposed a "peace board" with himself as head.
Can you name a leader from Gaza who the Trump administration could involve in peace talks?
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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As evidenced by what exactly in Israel? To call this war suggests that there is, infact, conflict. There's no conflict. Hamas can do virtually nothing. They hurt basically nobody. This is just a slaughter.


I would suggest that, while 20,000 seems like a terrifying number (and while I personally would rather not want ANY attacks), it could be argued that their impact has been nominal. For instance, I am VERY curious how many of those rocket attacks were actually ANY kind of successful.
By way of example, from 2005-2007 there were about 2700 attacks that led to 4 Isarel deaths.
Shall we compare how many Gazans died due to IDF actions during that time?
Are you suggesting that, because 20,000 rockets were fired but there were only a few casualties, so Hamas is not that bad?

The number of casualties resulting from the rocket attacks is irrelevant; Point is Hamas has launched over 20,000 rockets toward Israel.

A nation that prioritizes the well-being of its citizens cannot tolerate such an attack, irrespective of the number of casualties.

As a Canadian citizen, would you find it acceptable if your southern neighbor were to launch 20,000 rockets at major Canadian cities, even if the resulting casualties were minimal?
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Do you have a NONIsraeli based source to support that?


Israel: Security Forces Abuse Palestinian Children
Yes, I have information regarding the conditions of life in Gaza under Hamas administration. These details are not based on data provided by the Israeli government.

  • 62% of the 2.1 million Palestinians in Gaza require food assistance (OCHA).
  • Most households in Gaza receive piped water only for 6-8 hours each 3 to 5 days (OCHA). The people of Gaza had access to 78 liters per capita per day (2019 average) when the World Health Organization’s minimum recommended amount is 100. (OCHA)
  • As of 2022, 78% of piped water in Gaza is unfit for human consumption. (OCHA)
  • 2019 saw an increase in electricity from an average of 6.6 to still only 12 hours per day. (OCHA). In 2021 rolling power cuts averaged 11 hours per day. (OCHA)
  • 94% of schools in Gaza operate on double shifts due to lack of classroom space. (BBC-UNRWA)
  • Gaza’s public health system suffers from shortages in skilled personnel, drugs and disposables, and electricity supply. Many Palestinian patients need to be referred outside of Gaza for regular treatment (permits for travel to receive medical treatment depend on the Israeli authorities see Gisha).
  • 110 million liters of raw untreated sewage flow daily from Gaza into the Mediterranean Sea. (PBS)
  • 53% of Palestinians in Gaza live in poverty. (OCHA)
  • 80% of Palestinians in Gaza depend on humanitarian assistance. (UNRWA)
  • 63% of youth are unemployed (OCHA), with overall unemployment at 47%. (OCHA).
  • 43% of essential drugs are completely depleted with another 46% with less than one month’s supply remaining. (WHO)

Despite Palestinian living under these conditions, the issue did not receive any attention. University students didn’t advocate for improved living standards for Palestinians, residents in cities in London, Toronto, Los Angeles, and New York City did not organize street demonstrations to call for better conditions.

Recently, there has been a noticeable increase in efforts to improve the lives of Palestinians. I wonder why?
 
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