Jesus & Social Justice

[Amo2]

I have no idea what you are talking about. There are things promoted in the Torah that I disagree with, such as slavery and misogyny. But I can't think of anywhere it says to stone rape victims, and I have read the Torah countless times.

My guess is that you are likely referring to this:
Deut. 22:23–24: If a betrothed virgin is found with a man in the city and she does not cry out, both are put to death — because it is assumed she consented.

There is a problem here, but it's NOT that the Torah advocates stoning rape victims. It's that the culture of that day didn't understand why a woman being raped might not cry out. Today we do. Today we adjust to the additional knowledge. It's not a problem.

No it does not say anything about stoning rape victims, but I think it does say to stone rapists and homosexuals. I presumed Larniavc meant rapists and gays in my response, just made a mistake adding victim. Maybe not though. How terrible to think that God would condemn rape victims to be stoned to death for what, daring to be raped? Perhaps Larniavc was referring to the following scriptures.

Deu 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

It seems obvious from the above, that the intent is to punish the rapist and or adulterers, which ever the case might be. A woman within range of being heard and helped against rape, who does not cry out or seek help from an accused rapist, is considered a willing participant rather than a victim. This is no doubt in order to protect men from false accusations of rape, and or cause such cases to be examined more closely to determine exactly what happened. As both rape and false accusations of rape are apparently repulsive to God.

 

[Amo2]

It clearly calls for the death of rape victims and gay people. That is in no way justice.

Did you make a mistake in the above statement, or did you really mean that God calls for the death of rape victims? Just wondering, as I presumed the former in my lengthy response.

 

[bèlla]

Generational sin links us to our ancestors. We would like to be accountable and responsible only for our own individual self. Most of the time that is so. But slavery was a massive social evil benefiting slave owners and denigrating black slaves in America and their descendants to this day. We see it in so many health and wealth disparities.

Your position is fine. A precedent exists and monies were paid to others by the government.

And recompense is biblical. Here’s the definition from Webster’s 1628.

To compensate; to make return of an equivalent for any thing given, done or suffered; as, to recompense a person for services, for fidelity or for sacrifices of time, for loss or damages.

When you look at the people in favor and opposed the picture is clear. Where the majority err is focusing on politics. Remove minorities from the conversation and look at the demographics. Especially the income.

When a person is worried about their piece of pie they hold money like a fist and don’t want anyone to get ahead of them. That’s why you don’t see complaints about the resources going elsewhere because it isn’t happening here. There’s a psychological component to this that would upend identities. Many people need someone beneath them to cope.

If you pay out those resources the order will change and that’s the problem.

~bella

 

[Hazelelponi]

Your position is fine. A precedent exists and monies were paid to others by the government.

And recompense is biblical. Here’s the definition from Webster’s 1628.

To compensate; to make return of an equivalent for any thing given, done or suffered; as, to recompense a person for services, for fidelity or for sacrifices of time, for loss or damages.

When you look at the people in favor and opposed the picture is clear. Where the majority err is focusing on politics. Remove minorities from the conversation and look at the demographics. Especially the income.

When a person is worried about their piece of pie they hold money like a fist and don’t want anyone to get ahead of them. That’s why you don’t see complaints about the resources going elsewhere because it isn’t happening here. There’s a psychological component to this that would upend identities. Many people need someone beneath them to cope.

If you pay out those resources the order will change and that’s the problem.

~bella

The only federal‐level program usually cited as a reparations precedent is the 1988 Civil Liberties Act compensating surviving Japanese American internees. That was a voluntary act of Congress, not a court ordering reparations.

Please note the surviving part. Slavery ended in this country 160 years ago and there's not even one survivor of slavery. At this point we are at great grandchildren and grandkids. No survivors.

Most of us weren't even alive for the Jim Crow laws. Voddie Baucham who is my age wasn't born yet when the Jim Came laws were repealed and he just died of old age.

At this point in history, instead of demanding the unbiblical and immoral from Christians, why don't we decide to move on to the future in love harmony and peace as fellow Americans. It's gotten out of hand.

These are silly blood feuds at this point, not anyone harmed physically seeking redress.

 

[Larniavc]

It is when God Himself is the direct and active leader of your nation.

Just because God calls for the death of the gays doesn’t make it right.

 

[Larniavc]

I have no idea what you are talking about. There are things promoted in the Torah that I disagree with, such as slavery and misogyny. But I can't think of anywhere it says to stone rape victims, and I have read the Torah countless times.

My guess is that you are likely referring to this:
Deut. 22:23–24: If a betrothed virgin is found with a man in the city and she does not cry out, both are put to death — because it is assumed she consented.

There is a problem here, but it's NOT that the Torah advocates stoning rape victims. It's that the culture of that day didn't understand why a woman being raped might not cry out. Today we do. Today we adjust to the additional knowledge. It's not a problem.

Deuteronomy 22:24​

“Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.”

Rape victim stoned to death.

 

[bèlla]

At this point in history, instead of demanding the unbiblical and immoral from Christians, why don't we decide to move on to the future in love harmony and peace as fellow Americans. It's gotten out of hand.

If the government wants to give funds to the descendants of slaves they will. Much like they send billions to Israel, Ukraine and other places without our consent. And disagreement doesn’t set aside scripture. You may support a different course but that’s secondary to the spiritual. And christians aren’t the only citizens in America nor are their desires more important. Everyone gets a voice whether they agree or not.

The only question worth considering is His position. If He agrees nothing will stop it. Thy will be done.

~bella

 

[Hazelelponi]

If the government wants to give funds to the descendants of slaves they will.

And I'm not willing to see a civil war over it when the offer is just to be Americans and be equal with the rest of society.

When that's not good enough and people want to have race wars they aren't acting like the majority of Christians.

I plan on walking in the way that is right - and it's not to bankrupt government for crimes no one alive experienced or suffers from and every people group the world over participated in throughout world history in one form or fashion.

 

[bèlla]

And I'm not willing to see a civil war over it when the offer is just to be Americans and be equal with the rest of society.

There are many issues that could ignite the same. Gun removal is another. If people want to go to war they will.

When that's not good enough and people want to have race wars they aren't acting like the majority of Christians.

And who would initiate it? I think we know the answer.

I plan on walking in the way that is right - and it's not to bankrupt government for crimes no one alive experienced or suffers from and every people group the world over participated in throughout world history in one form or fashion.

Every man’s way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs and examines the hearts [of people and their motives].

~bella

 

[Robban]

Deuteronomy 22:24​

“Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.”

Rape victim stoned to death.

So would a Sadduccee see it, they took everything literaly.

Saducees a sect which denied the Oral Torah, the authority of the sages, angels and resurrection.

They had dominated the Sanhedrin (Supreme court) .

But praise God Almighty, Shimon ben Schetach successfully

completed the expulsion of the Sadducees in 81 BCE,

replacing them with his Torah lojal disciples.

 

[o_mlly]

Leveling the playing field won’t make the recipients a hero, superstar, productive, etc. if they don’t possess something within them that will work in tandem with the blessing. Money isn’t a motivator in and of itself. Lottery winners are a great example.

Imagine what you could accomplish if you possessed forethought and discipline before it arrived? You‘d probably end up putting it to better use than most because of your wiring. That doesn’t mean you wouldn’t have spoils. But your wiring would lessen the likelihood of waste or squandering.

This is what Gladwell was getting at with 10,000 hours but people took it out of context. The fact that someone would put 10,000 hours towards a designated purpose isn’t the norm. Although they were off they demonstrated the point through their actions nonetheless.

Like this guy. Jon became a multimillionaire through blogging. Look at him. He can’t even type! But he has something in his tank the majority lack including the able bodied. Acknowledging that isn’t a sin. I’ve studied great men (and women) and high achievers most of my life and there’s qualities you see again and again whether they began well or not.

I logged into my Goodreads to check a date and according to my history I read The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss in 2016. The majority tried to turn the title into a reality and failed. That wasn’t the point and they missed it much like Gladwell’s. But after I read it I devised a plan to monetize my life because I understood. No one taught me how and there isn’t a book you can reference on the subject. But I knew nonetheless. It isn’t one thing I could cite or another. It’s a culmination.

I left the workforce under similar circumstances. My boss said her boyfriend retired at forty and had a similar background in finance like I did. That’s all she said. She didn’t tell me to do the same and I was younger. But I saw it in her eyes. What she wasn’t aware of at the time is that I was spending 15 minutes a day during my lunch brainstorming business ideas. I saw her comment as a confirmation and left.

I understood my gifts and talents all along. The spiritual component allowed me to see them in their proper context and redirect their application and build a system for it. Now I’m doing the same on a familial scale and creating a roadmap to help my descendants navigate the world.

That isn’t something most would undertake or know how to perform. Much like Jon and others like us. I’m surrounded by high achievers all the time. They’re a different breed. That doesn’t make someone less talented unworthy. We have different purposes. You could raise all the money you wanted and you wouldn’t create a Billy Graham. He had specific qualities that made him great and equality wouldn’t change that.

~bella

View attachment 370785

Still don't see your point(s). The thread is "Jesus and Social Justice". Can you relate your posts to the OP?

 

[Amo2]

Just because God calls for the death of the gays doesn’t make it right.

That of course depends upon whom one has determined is right, and or properly represents what is right. If in fact God is the creator and sustainer of all humanity as holy scripture declares, then He is in fact the one who knows exactly what He created us for and how we ought to be. If He created and enforced this law upon all of humanity, according to His own teaching and obvious actions, such would be wrong. Which is why apparently He did not. Creating and enforcing such a law upon a people though, who had entered into covenant with Him by way of agreeing to keep all of His laws and statutes, is another situation altogether. Especially if that person is free to leave said nation any time they wanted to. The scriptures give several warnings toward those who will profess to be followers of the true God, while ignoring or defying His authority in openly disobeying His commands and teaching others to do so. It will be worse for them, than those who denied Him altogether.

 

[Amo2]

Deuteronomy 22:24​

“Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.”

Rape victim stoned to death.

Accused rapist, likely by the woman doing the accusing, as no one else would think she was raped unless they saw the event. And even if they did, if she did not cry out and or fight the accused rapist, why would they think she was raped? So we are likely talking about an unwitnessed crime, therefore it being unknown if the rape claim is true or false. All we have is the word of the accuser, against the accused, or the word of the accused against the accuser. Very difficult situation. Kind of sounds like, oh I don't know, innocent until proved guilty. With one difference, God considers either raping someone, or lying about someone raping another to be worthy of death. I tend to agree. As either or, could easily mean the death of the accused rapist, as vengeance by family members of the alleged victim. An event far more common at that time, than now. So God makes the situation one of life or death for both parties involved, that neither would take such evil acts lightly, in order to prevent either from happening.

If someone raped my wife or daughter, I would kill them. Nothing but the grace of God could our would stop me from doing so. I respect the police and laws of the land, but some things upon which I strongly disagree concerning far to slack punishment from the government, I would take into my own hands. But for the grace of God perhaps, I do not know. I do know and believe for certain, that rapists today get off way to easy, as do those who commit many other crimes as well. God Himself comes down hard on rapists or false accusers of rape, I agree with Him, that such extremely offensive acts should be dealt with extremely as well.

Gen 34:1 And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land. 2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her. 3 And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel. 34 And Shechem spake unto his father Hamor, saying, Get me this damsel to wife........................................................................
24 And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all that went out of the gate of his city. 25 And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males. 26 And they slew Hamor and Shechem his son with the edge of the sword, and took Dinah out of Shechem's house, and went out. 27 The sons of Jacob came upon the slain, and spoiled the city, because they had defiled their sister. 28 They took their sheep, and their oxen, and their asses, and that which was in the city, and that which was in the field, 29 And all their wealth, and all their little ones, and their wives took they captive, and spoiled even all that was in the house. 30 And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I being few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house. 31 And they said, Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?

 

[Larniavc]

That of course depends upon whom one has determined is right, and or properly represents what is right. If in fact God is the creator and sustainer of all humanity as holy scripture declares, then He is in fact the one who knows exactly what He created us for and how we ought to be. If He created and enforced this law upon all of humanity, according to His own teaching and obvious actions, such would be wrong. Which is why apparently He did not. Creating and enforcing such a law upon a people though, who had entered into covenant with Him by way of agreeing to keep all of His laws and statutes, is another situation altogether. Especially if that person is free to leave said nation any time they wanted to. The scriptures give several warnings toward those who will profess to be followers of the true God, while ignoring or defying His authority in openly disobeying His commands and teaching others to do so. It will be worse for them, than those who denied Him altogether.

It’s still not right though.

 

[Larniavc]

Accused rapist, likely by the woman doing the accusing, as no one else would think she was raped unless they saw the event. And even if they did, if she did not cry out and or fight the accused rapist, why would they think she was raped? So we are likely talking about an unwitnessed crime, therefore it being unknown if the rape claim is true or false. All we have is the word of the accuser, against the accused, or the word of the accused against the accuser. Very difficult situation. Kind of sounds like, oh I don't know, innocent until proved guilty. With one difference, God considers either raping someone, or lying about someone raping another to be worthy of death. I tend to agree. As either or, could easily mean the death of the accused rapist, as vengeance by family members of the alleged victim. An event far more common at that time, than now. So God makes the situation one of life or death for both parties involved, that neither would take such evil acts lightly, in order to prevent either from happening.

If someone raped my wife or daughter, I would kill them. Nothing but the grace of God could our would stop me from doing so. I respect the police and laws of the land, but some things upon which I strongly disagree concerning far to slack punishment from the government, I would take into my own hands. But for the grace of God perhaps, I do not know. I do know and believe for certain, that rapists today get off way to easy, as do those who commit many other crimes as well. God Himself comes down hard on rapists or false accusers of rape, I agree with Him, that such extremely offensive acts should be dealt with extremely as well.

Gen 34:1 And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land. 2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her. 3 And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel. 34 And Shechem spake unto his father Hamor, saying, Get me this damsel to wife........................................................................
24 And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all that went out of the gate of his city. 25 And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males. 26 And they slew Hamor and Shechem his son with the edge of the sword, and took Dinah out of Shechem's house, and went out. 27 The sons of Jacob came upon the slain, and spoiled the city, because they had defiled their sister. 28 They took their sheep, and their oxen, and their asses, and that which was in the city, and that which was in the field, 29 And all their wealth, and all their little ones, and their wives took they captive, and spoiled even all that was in the house. 30 And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I being few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house. 31 And they said, Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?

They she still get’s stoned to death for being raped.

 

[Amo2]

It’s still not right though.

According to whose or what standard? Yours? Do you know better than God, what was or is the best way to prevent rapes from happening? Do you think everyone should listen to what you say is right or wrong, above God or scripture? I agree with God, that rape is a crime deserving of the death penalty. And that such being the case, any woman that would falsely claim rape, would be attempting to murder the one she falsely claimed raped her. Since death is the penalty for such. I think God knew exactly what He was doing by making both crimes punishable by death, as the greatest deterrent against these despicable crimes. Also requiring the greatest amount of care taken to prove one or the other to be true. I believe this one to be a righteous law, as it must be coming from God, all of whose ways are righteousness, judgment, and mercy.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

 

[Amo2]

They she still get’s stoned to death for being raped.

Not if they have a bit of common sense, and obey their self professed God. Then they will do what their God has commanded, and cry out for help and fight a rapist. Under closer examination though, I don't think Deu 22:24 is even talking about rape. Only verse 25 talks about the use of force, which command demands the death of the rapist, not the damsel.

Deu 22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

Verse 24 seems to be more about the fact that the woman not crying out against the rapist is proof that it was in fact not rape, but rather likely consensual. This being the difference between the woman in the city or the one a field, in that no one would likely hear a woman crying out in a field, but would likely hear a woman crying out in a city filled with people. To the effect that she did not cry out because it was not rape. Both of the women being addressed being betrothed to a husband, not married or simply a virgin. As the judgments are different for all three of these different scenarios.

 

[Hentenza]

Deuteronomy 22:24​

“Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.”

Rape victim stoned to death.

Interesting. I don’t think as the girl being raped as her bring a participant. She was stoned because she did not cried out even though she was in the city. This implies that if she cried out many people would have heard her and the rape could have been stopped. She was stoned for infidelity not rape.

 

[Larniavc]

Do you know better than God, what was or is the best way to prevent rapes from happening?

He doesn’t prevent rapes from happening. If I had his power I would stop rapes from happening. So yes, in this case I appear to know better.

 

[Larniavc]

Not if they have a bit of common sense, and obey their self professed God.

Ah, so it is their fault. Silly me.