Jesus & Social Justice

[rambot]

I have no clue what said here. Please clarify.

You said "why are so many people coming to the US?".

I posited that they are leaving some dangerous, hostile home countries. In making your comment you were suggesting that the US is better than these developing countries in Central America.

I implied that is a low bar.

How many? Tell me?

Why would you need data? I'm saying they exist.

How many? I guess being alive is also a privilege. Why is it that most everything is a privilege for the left? The kids these days s are growing without coping skills because of the ideas from the left. People need to be taught responsibility and hard work instead of “everyone gets a trophy”.

Why is it that for Christians, so many things are a gift from God?
Our health: We call that a gift.
Our house and our food: We call that a gift as well.
Having good parents? Why WOULDN'T that be a gift from God?

Maybe you're just getting triggered by the word "priviledge".

Reread my last post and change out all the times I say privilege for "gift from God".

Never said otherwise

So you agree that there are people who have a harder life than you? Harder circumstances; harder situations?
Okay that's good.

but your ideas are the typical left everyone is a victim ideology.

That we acknowledge how hard their life is and that they don't have people to teach them HOW to do all the things healthy parents can and do.

If the government pays able people to stay home then all they are doing is keeping them in poverty.

How many people do you think they do that for?

Yes for a 2 year college. Everyone is eligible and it is a grant not a loan.

Wow...awesome! So like...completely FREE school?
How come SOOOO many people are crippled by student loans? Do they no pursue a Pell grant?

What are cuts?

Cuts to school lunch and food bank funding mean less fresh produce for children and families
The President’s Budget Proposes Cuts to Programs That Serve Meals When School Is Out - Food Research & Action Center

Also:
Re: SNAP
Trump law will cut food stamps for 2.4 million people as work rules widen

“The National School Lunch Program (NSLP) is a federally assisted meal program operating in public and nonprofit private schools and residential child care institutions. It provides nutritionally balanced, low-cost or free lunches to children each school day. The program was established under the National School Lunch Act, signed by President Harry Truman in 1946.”

https://www.fns.usda.gov/nslp

Again, what are cuts? In the US we have almost full employment. People are getting and retaining jobs so you are off base here.

The Trump Administration’s War on Disability
Donald Trump’s Assault on Disability Rights

There it goes the next move from the left playbook. Corporations are just evil.

Sometimes yeah....they are.

People abuse the programs because the programs don’t have sufficient checks and balances.

Some of the companies and some of the people commit fraud.

And the owners of those companies benefit on orders of magnitude MORE Than the guy who got 2 extra packs of chicken.

The people that deserve the help should not include able bodied people that are perfectly capable of working or those that trade their benefits for cash or drugs.

The issue is that you, as an outside have exactly ZERO idea how capable someone CAN be to work just by looking at them.

I've worked with adults who have such intense anxiety that when they ARE able to get a job, they can't maintain it because their anxiety keeps them from functioning appropriately; or their depression keeps them in bed.

You can't see mental disease. You see a person who can stand and walk around and assume that they can hold down a job.

NOBODY will argue with you that they only want to see the people who need it, get the extra help.

Who is he?

The other poster you were discussing it with.

I understand your confusion since you are not from the US. Some of these programs have been around for decades (including the free lunch program which has been around since 1946). I don’t know if you can vote in the US but you have certainly drank the far left kool aid.

I'm not from Canada but I can read. And I use that skill to read the news.

And I have spent most of my professional life working with all those people you look down upon with derision and distrust. Where you can't even allow them the possibly of having a bad childhood and the lasting affects that can cause; you don't allow them to have unhealthy parents that may affect them...because "of course having decent parents isn't a privilege".


As I said substitute "privilege" with "blessing from God" and you'd understand my point more. We need to be filled with paralyzing amounts of gratitude for all those simple seemingly small blessings we've had.

 

[Hentenza]

You said "why are so many people coming to the US?".

I posited that they are leaving some dangerous, hostile home countries. In making your comment you were suggesting that the US is better than these developing countries in Central America.

I implied that is a low bar.

Not really. All that immigrate here, even from countries is Europe, do so because they think that the US has a lot to give. Of course people coming from countries in turmoil and unrest enjoy the laws and peace here. If you don’t like it here you are welcomed to go somewhere else.

Why would you need data? I'm saying they exist.

Because you make it seem that it was the majority when they are not.

Why is it that for Christians, so many things are a gift from God?

Where did you get that argument from my post? This is one of the forums open to non Christians do why would I make that argument?

Our health: We call that a gift.

Who is “we” and who or what gives that gift?

Our house and our food: We call that a gift as well.

Who is “we” and who it what gives that gift?

Having good parents? Why WOULDN'T that be a gift from God?

If you say so but am yet to make that argument.

Maybe you're just getting triggered by the word "priviledge".

Everything that is not from a minority is a privilege to the left. I don’t consider myself privilege since I have worked for everything that I have and yet you would call me privilege because my parents worked hard to teach us the value of hard work.

Reread my last post and change out all the times I say privilege for "gift from God".

Nope. Not my argument.

So you agree that there are people who have a harder life than you?

Yes, never said otherwise.

Harder circumstances; harder situations?
Okay that's good.

Yes never said otherwise.

That we acknowledge how hard their life is and that they don't have people to teach them HOW to do all the things healthy parents can and do.

That is a fraction of the population. There are mentors in schools and in charities that are there to help them.

How many people do you think they do that for?

Now you want numbers? Lol

Wow...awesome! So like...completely FREE school?

Yep.

How come SOOOO many people are crippled by student loans?

Let me tell you a story. After I received my Ph.d I went to work at the University of Houston. During my time there the financial aid office had to change the policy on when the recipients of student loans could get the remaining balance to November from September. The reason for that was that students would get the maximum allowed and live on the money the rest of the semester even though only a portion was used for tuition and books. This is prevalent.

Do they no pursue a Pell grant?

Have no clue.

Cuts to school lunch and food bank funding mean less fresh produce for children and families
The President’s Budget Proposes Cuts to Programs That Serve Meals When School Is Out - Food Research & Action Center

Also:
Re: SNAP
Trump law will cut food stamps for 2.4 million people as work rules widen


The Trump Administration’s War on Disability
Donald Trump’s Assault on Disability Rights

Sometimes yeah....they are.

Nothing has actually changed. I don’t care about Trump so you are barking at the wrong tree.

And the owners of those companies benefit on orders of magnitude MORE Than the guy who got 2 extra packs of chicken.

So what? The owners are responsible for employing a boatload of people so the they can buy chicken. I am a capitalist and believe in the system.

The issue is that you, as an outside have exactly ZERO idea how capable someone CAN be to work just by looking at them.

No one can tell if someone can work by looking at them. Don’t know how this helps you.

I've worked with adults who have such intense anxiety that when they ARE able to get a job, they can't maintain it because their anxiety keeps them from functioning appropriately; or their depression keeps them in bed.

Sure, how many are like that in terms of the totality of the population? No one is denying that there are people in need.

You can't see mental disease. You see a person who can stand and walk around and assume that they can hold down a job.

Right. Does everyone have a mental disease?

NOBODY will argue with you that they only want to see the people who need it, get the extra help.

Ok

The other poster you were discussing it with.

I'm not from Canada but I can read. And I use that skill to read the news.

I thought you told me that you are not from here and your profile says that you are from Canada. Is that not right?

And I have spent most of my professional life working with all those people you look down upon with derision and distrust. Where you can't even allow them the possibly of having a bad childhood and the lasting affects that can cause; you don't allow them to have unhealthy parents that may affect them...because "of course having decent parents isn't a privilege".

I don’t look at anyone down with derision and distrust. That is flaming. I never even hinted at that. You guys from the far left can make up some serious nonsense.

As I said substitute "privilege" with "blessing from God" and you'd understand my point more. We need to be filled with paralyzing amounts of gratitude for all those simple seemingly small blessings we've had.

No. I’m going to understand the immense blessing that we have by living in a country in which anyone can make it as far as they want and dare to. The far left keeps people in bondage and poverty by rejecting responsibility as necessary for growth. Most kids these days couldn’t find their way out of a paper bag because they are not taught coping skills. You are seeing that in your own work but refuse to recognize it for what it really is.

 

[Larniavc]

[/QUOTE
If that is your legit concern to help discredit Torah you might benefit from this article a bit.

Does the Bible Blame Women for Rape?

Deuteronomy 22′s laws on sexual faithfulness are hard, but they reflect a good God who’s faithful to his vows.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Not to any extent.

 

[bèlla]

Yeah but (and I think that bears repeating); yeah but that individual difference is most often significantly outweighed by one’s starting point in life.

People born rich simply have it so much easier all else being equal.

It doesn’t matter as much as you think. Your innards are your innards and adversity can be a springboard for greatness if you direct it properly and ease can be a blessing or crutch. I’m talking about you in the raw.

From the perspective of the underprivileged the ‘baseline’ is the privileged.

So what the money’s lacking. Now what? You’ll always have a lack or somewhere you fall short or someone failed. How do you get beyond it? That’s what separates ordinary from extraordinary. You‘re unable to grasp it because you’re focused on impediments.

The trouble with America is that it’s society is cut throat that a relative few climb on the faces of the majority to get theirs.

We’ll always have a gap. Even if we rigged the system and gave everyone the same starting point because the vehicles differ. But humans won’t accept it because of their ego.

~bella

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Not to any extent.

So you don't dispute the Torah emphasis on justice you just don’t think it has credibility?

 

[Larniavc]

That’s what separates ordinary from extraordinary

You are completely ignoring circumstances and above all luck.

 

[Larniavc]

So you don't dispute the Torah emphasis on justice you just don’t think it has credibility?

It clearly calls for the death of rape victims and gay people. That is in no way justice.

 

[bèlla]

But if you've been in the kind of management that aims to take a broad range of people and bring them to a specific standard (which is what the military does), you learn that you can't handle everyone exactly the same and expect them to reach a single standard. You either have to handle them differently or accept that not everyone is going to reach the standard. And usually, both.

Society wants to believe if we level the playing field everyone will win. But the military provides an opportunity to see what I’m addressing up close. You’re not wearing the same blinders or hindered by the want of fairness others project. You examine the specimen and gauge its capacity. You can’t afford to be emotional. The operation relies on competence and you scrutinize with that in mind. You measure things the world ignores or is uncomfortable in assessing.

I’ve never been in the military but I had a few years of ROTC in high school. I transferred to a public school and the class was first period. Some ungodly time after 7am and I rarely made it. But I managed to show up for inspections and tests and my sergeant spoke candidly during the parent-teacher conference. He told her I missed the class and mentioned my performance on the exams and said I had the highest score. Then he asked me how I did it and I told him I come on the review and remembered the answers.

He assessed me afterwards and solved the problem through responsibility. He told me the major was leaving and I knew who he meant. We had a class together and she was a senior. He said I’d like you to replace her and think you’ll do a good job. I was a sophomore at the time and he wanted me to be her apprentice to learn the job. Then he said, but you’ll have to come to class and everything changed. It became one of my favorite classes and we developed a bond. And he never stopped telling me how good I was nor was he flattering me. He wanted me to grasp my difference and I did.

And I couldn’t help laughing about “the edge of objectivism.” ;-)

I’ve read a lot of her work and quite a bit of it resonated and the edge you referenced is the Lord. There must be balance. Nevertheless, I can admit I’d be the woman I am today no matter what. The road to its unfolding might have differed but the components were there all along.

And there’s a want in society for diminishment. Don’t stand out too much, shine too bright, have too much or be too much. Become like the rest instead and fit. But I don’t agree with that.

~bella

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

It clearly calls for the death of rape victims and gay people. That is in no way justice.

Well if you read the article you would have seen Not rape victims who yelled for help if they could . Sure, it is a long way from where we are now thanks to women advocates.

 

[Larniavc]

Not rape victims who yelled for help if they could

Why read the article when you can read the actual Bible (I’ve read both)?

The calling out clause in a city? If they couldn’t yell out they get stoned to death.

You see the Torah has crimes against women as property crimes.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I know many Christians are hesitant to connect "following Jesus" with what's often called "social justice". But I believe there's compelling biblical support - even in passages like Micah 6:8 - that following Jesus compels us to pursue justice, including in societal forms.

What do you think - does Scripture call us to systemic justice, or is the focus primarily on individual devotion?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially after watching this video:

There's a couple different points in be raised. The first is that we aren't called to build a theocracy, that type of thing is up to God alone to build - not us. Hence, the more Protestant constitutional republic as the form of government where people of differing Christian denominational background can meet with broad agreement on larger issues.

Because while we aren't called to build a theocracy, we are called to live out our faith in community together, so with so many Christians in the world, you will end up with government influenced by the faith of the people and the time.

For example slavery. There was a time every people group on earth participated in the practice, but due to the faith of the faithful that all mankind is image bearers of God, the practice of slavery was legally ended almost worldwide; influencing even unbelievers with the beauty of our lived faith.

What social justice of the modern day is asking for however is not just or actually justice.

For example, you can't ask people who never owned slaves to give reparations to people who never were slaves due to "past sins" of slavery. #1 if you do that legally it has no end as there's no unaffected people group (even white people have been slaves) #2 it's unjust because you're asking people to pay for things they never engaged in. We don't hold the sins of the father's against people - at least not in any legal sense.

That said, if everyone in someone's immediate family is a convicted murder, people are going to be wary of the individual in question on a personal level, and rightfully so, but you're not going to legally throw them in jail just because you look at them a little sideways. That would be an injustice.

Social justice claims to seek justice but is doing so in highly unjust and unbiblical ways, which cannot then result in what is right and true.

For example I'm a proponent of enforcing our laws instead of continually creating new ones. I don't think we need more laws, we just need to enforce the laws we have.

Racism doesn't deter racism - it just creates more racists by teaching racism. We don't like racists of any skin color because it comes from a heart of hatred and hatred begets nothing good.

When you simply look to do what is right, beautiful things come from it, and what is right is simply just. You don't need a special tag to show others. There's nothing in Scripture called social justice. There's only justice, and we work that out through processes that are blind in America, and should remain blind.

We have been birthed into a new era, and we cannot take any vestige of legal racism with us, we are beyond it as Christians.

And yes, you may call me an evil racist now... Lol.

 

[o_mlly]

Everyone else (including many Christians) understand that the will to act is always constrained in some way beyond the means to change.

Of course, one's free will may be constrained but never eliminated. For example, coercion may require the commission of an act but such an act is done unwillingly. Fear and seduction may also mitigate the will but the virtues of courage and temperance are available to overcome those constraints. Who do we honor -- heroes or cowards?

 

[RDKirk]

Of course, one's free will may be constrained but never eliminated. For example, coercion may require the commission of an act but such an act is done unwillingly. Fear and seduction may also mitigate the will but the virtues of courage and temperance are available to overcome those constraints. Who do we honor -- heroes or cowards?

By acknowledging that some will be heroes and some will be cowards, you're essentially saying the same thing that Bèlla has been saying.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

#2 it's unjust because you're asking people to pay for things they never engaged in. We don't hold the sins of the father's against people - at least not in any legal sense.

But none of us actually ate “the forbidden fruit” and yet our faith os based on the inheritance of sin ad it is taken so legally that Jesus had to be executed.

Generational sin links us to our ancestors. We would like to be accountable and responsible only for our own individual self. Most of the time that is so. But slavery was a massive social evil benefiting slave owners and denigrating black slaves in America and their descendants to this day. We see it in so many health and wealth disparities.

 

[Amo2]

It clearly calls for the death of rape victims and gay people. That is in no way justice.

It is when God Himself is the direct and active leader of your nation. When everyone in that nation has already sworn an oath to abide by God's law. That was the situation then, not now. Nor therefore does the New Testament or covenant call for such save at the hands of government, people themselves have pledged allegiance to as well. The New Covenant Church is a separate entity altogether, from the governments and powers that be of this world.

Only apostate Christianity links them together. Accepting government interference and control over it, or seeking control over government.

Mat 22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. 22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

Jhn 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

This is the main problem with Christianity being caught up in social justice movements as well. They are to involved with the politics of this world, and or legislation unto subjection, rather than conviction unto conversion. The former being the job of the state, the latter being the only authentic call of the Church. Which is a call out of this world and its kingdoms, into the spiritual and universal kingdom of God.

It is important when addressing the laws of old covenant Israel, that one understands the unique situation and relationship of God to the Israelites of the day. Which cannot be enforced upon people today, since no such relationship exists in this New Covenant Era, by establishment of God Himself through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Israelites were hand picked by God himself as the nation on earth to represent Him. He miraculously intervened and dealt with them like no other. Performing one miracle after another in the establishment of the nation, which they all witnessed and benefitted from. After which He gathered the entire nation before the mountain, and personally descended upon the same, causing the entire mountain to quake and smoke like a chimney stack. He then spoke His law audibly to the entire nation in a voice which rolled like thunder, which all heard, acknowledged, and entered into covenant with. Which He later wrote in stone with His own finger, twice. This besides the laws He dictated to Moses, who wrote them down for Israel as well. Continuing to personally and miraculously lead the nation for centuries thereafter. This is why the death penalty at that time was right and proper, as God himself was directly leading the nation. Any and all therefore, who disobeyed, disobeyed God directly to His face as it were. Nor did God command or call for the Israelites to imprison or forcefully keep anyone within the nation. If any wanted they could have of course left the nation, and denied the oath and covenant the nation had made with God. Therefore were the penalties harsher for those in direct contact with, and accepted and professed loyalty to God Himself. A very different situation than today and or for other peoples having made no such covenant with God himself, or seeing such awesome display of His divinity in the establishment of the same.

No man, or church, or religion, or government today, has the right to exercise such authority over those whom our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is God, has purchased with his own blood. Without stepping into the role of antichrist. Save those they rule over, freely accept such overbearing and or tyrannical government themselves. Social Justice is one thing, professed Christians supporting social justice agendas which include government enforced justice according to the understanding and practices of this world, is another altogether.

 

[o_mlly]

By acknowledging that some will be heroes and some will be cowards, you're essentially saying the same thing that Bèlla has been saying.

I'm not sure I understand what Bela is saying. So, I put the questions to her. However, I still do not see the point(s) she trying to make in this thread. We'll see.

 

[RDKirk]

But none of us actually ate “the forbidden fruit” and yet our faith os based on the inheritance of sin ad it is taken so legally that Jesus had to be executed.

Generational sin links us to our ancestors. We would like to be accountable and responsible only for our own individual self. Most of the time that is so. But slavery was a massive social evil benefiting slave owners and denigrating black slaves in America and their descendants to this day. We see it in so many health and wealth disparities.

Today's issues are far more a matter of Jim Crow than slavery. If you look at the progress former slaves were making in the 40 years immediately following Emancipation, it's easy to extrapolate that by now slavery would not have had a lasting effect. The problem was Jim Crow, which didn't begin to be dismantle until 1965.

 

[bèlla]

I'm not sure I understand what Bela is saying. So, I put the questions to her. However, I still do not see the point(s) she trying to make in this thread. We'll see.

Leveling the playing field won’t make the recipients a hero, superstar, productive, etc. if they don’t possess something within them that will work in tandem with the blessing. Money isn’t a motivator in and of itself. Lottery winners are a great example.

Imagine what you could accomplish if you possessed forethought and discipline before it arrived? You‘d probably end up putting it to better use than most because of your wiring. That doesn’t mean you wouldn’t have spoils. But your wiring would lessen the likelihood of waste or squandering.

This is what Gladwell was getting at with 10,000 hours but people took it out of context. The fact that someone would put 10,000 hours towards a designated purpose isn’t the norm. Although they were off they demonstrated the point through their actions nonetheless.

Like this guy. Jon became a multimillionaire through blogging. Look at him. He can’t even type! But he has something in his tank the majority lack including the able bodied. Acknowledging that isn’t a sin. I’ve studied great men (and women) and high achievers most of my life and there’s qualities you see again and again whether they began well or not.

I logged into my Goodreads to check a date and according to my history I read The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss in 2016. The majority tried to turn the title into a reality and failed. That wasn’t the point and they missed it much like Gladwell’s. But after I read it I devised a plan to monetize my life because I understood. No one taught me how and there isn’t a book you can reference on the subject. But I knew nonetheless. It isn’t one thing I could cite or another. It’s a culmination.

I left the workforce under similar circumstances. My boss said her boyfriend retired at forty and had a similar background in finance like I did. That’s all she said. She didn’t tell me to do the same and I was younger. But I saw it in her eyes. What she wasn’t aware of at the time is that I was spending 15 minutes a day during my lunch brainstorming business ideas. I saw her comment as a confirmation and left.

I understood my gifts and talents all along. The spiritual component allowed me to see them in their proper context and redirect their application and build a system for it. Now I’m doing the same on a familial scale and creating a roadmap to help my descendants navigate the world.

That isn’t something most would undertake or know how to perform. Much like Jon and others like us. I’m surrounded by high achievers all the time. They’re a different breed. That doesn’t make someone less talented unworthy. We have different purposes. You could raise all the money you wanted and you wouldn’t create a Billy Graham. He had specific qualities that made him great and equality wouldn’t change that.

~bella

 

[Meowzltov]

Stoning of rape victims…..

I have no idea what you are talking about. There are things promoted in the Torah that I disagree with, such as slavery and misogyny. But I can't think of anywhere it says to stone rape victims, and I have read the Torah countless times.

My guess is that you are likely referring to this:
Deut. 22:23–24: If a betrothed virgin is found with a man in the city and she does not cry out, both are put to death — because it is assumed she consented.

There is a problem here, but it's NOT that the Torah advocates stoning rape victims. It's that the culture of that day didn't understand why a woman being raped might not cry out. Today we do. Today we adjust to the additional knowledge. It's not a problem.

 

[Hazelelponi]

But none of us actually ate “the forbidden fruit” and yet our faith os based on the inheritance of sin ad it is taken so legally that Jesus had to be executed.

Generational sin links us to our ancestors. We would like to be accountable and responsible only for our own individual self. Most of the time that is so. But slavery was a massive social evil benefiting slave owners and denigrating black slaves in America and their descendants to this day. We see it in so many health and wealth disparities.

On Adamic guilt vs. legal responsibility today


1) Federal headship is covenantal, not a civil reparations template.
In Scripture, Adam’s sin is imputed to the race by federal headship before God (Rom 5). That’s a covenantal category, not a civil-liability rule for human courts. The same Bible that teaches federal headship also teaches individual legal accountability in human justice.

“Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men…” Romans 5:12

“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers.” Deuteronomy 24:16

“The soul who sins shall die.” Ezekiel 18:20

Scripture regulates ancient servitude but categorically forbids “man-stealing” and treats brothers in Christ as family, which sowed the seeds for abolition.
“Whoever steals a man and sells him… shall be put to death.” Exodus 21:16

This verse declares that kidnapping, selling, or even being in possession of a kidnapped person is a capital offense punishable by death.

You can't transfer that guilt to those who never engaged in the practice - there's no biblical mandate for it and would be an injustice against people who never themselves sinned against anyone in such a manner.

What Christian Scripture does is reorients our relationships in Christ, and away from blood feuds.

If you are stuck on the blood feud, you are not fixed on Christ and our relationship with one another as brothers and sisters in the Christian faith, with those outside of the faith all holding the potential of future brotherhood

Christians can debate prudential policies (education, housing, two parent families, local investment, church-led mercy) without equating disagreement on mechanisms indifferent to justice, or relying on injustice to complete our desire for vengeance - as vengeance belongs to the Lord and everyone involved and in that evil is judged now by God alone.

What we are called to do as Christians is move forward seeking actual justice alone, with forgiveness and love in our hearts.