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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Three ICE detainees shot, 2 dead, at ICE facility in Dallas; suspected shooter committed suicide.

childeye 2

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Said by a guy who's clearly an us vs them guy. Ive heard the rhetoric from you and the words said about us right wingers.

I have one question and it is, are you personally going to stop?

And are you going to going to tell anyone on your side to stop with the rhetoric tossed around on your side.

Because we on the right are not going to be able to do that. Those on the left have to police their own.
The terms left and right are metaphorical in politics. They are used to represent opposing subjective views on various policy matters that are of valid interest to a society. Most people are left on some issues and right on other issues. Therefore, far right or far left carry no meaning until there is a substantive issue where the terms left and right can be applicable.

The left/right dichotomy is structured to be an analytical tool, but some people improperly use it for propaganda, division, tribalism, ad hominem attacks, accusation, insinuation, and slander. These types of propaganda can and do twist minds, stoking undue angst against others, creating paranoias when believed upon, and subsequently justifying violence in the minds of people who have become disconnected from reality through propaganda.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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My daddy can beat up your daddy is not a substantive policy worthy of being framed in a left/right dichotomy. <-- this should be common sense.
That statement is pure nonsense.
 
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childeye 2

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That statement is pure nonsense.
The statement is meant to express the futility of trying to blame either liberal ideology or Charlie Kirks rhetoric for Robinsons motivation to commit murder. Hence arguing who is the better side in a political left/right dichotomy, is carnal vanity and not a substantive matter of policy.
 
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rjs330

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The terms left and right are metaphorical in politics. They are used to represent opposing subjective views on various policy matters that are of valid interest to a society. Most people are left on some issues and right on other issues. Therefore, far right or far left carry no meaning until there is a substantive issue where the terms left and right can be applicable.

The left/right dichotomy is structured to be an analytical tool, but some people improperly use it for propaganda, division, tribalism, ad hominem attacks, accusation, insinuation, and slander. These types of propaganda can and do twist minds, stoking undue angst against others, creating paranoias when believed upon, and subsequently justifying violence in the minds of people who have become disconnected from reality through propaganda.
Except we can, by and large know what is left and what is right by a person's position on most issues.

We can also mostly determine what is far right. For example, white supremacy would be far right. Facism, far right. Christian Nationalism could be considered far right depending on the definition for example a Theocracy. Nazis would be considered far right. I would even suggest that the removal of all taxes and all safety nets would be considered far right. Thats what we would consider far right.

Conservatives in general reject those ideologies flat out, even though they are typically on the right and don't support them.

So what is far left as defined by the left and what far left positions are not typically supported by the left in general?
 
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rjs330

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Left and right are a real thing. And those real things will separate us. However, if we are reasonable people we WILL find things we can agree on. And we all should agree that there isnt any excuse in America to commit acts of violence like this shooting at the ICE facility. Or the vandalizations of people's property. Or that its acceptable for a large percentage of a certain group to see the validity in political assassinations. We all agree that racism is a bad thing.

Things we can compromise on like how much welfare is okay and how long should it last. That housing is too costly and that we need to work on solutions for it. Same with healthcare. Status quo isnt acdeptable to most of us. I think most of us also believe that business is too involved in government. Stuff like that.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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The statement is meant to express the futility of trying to blame either liberal ideology or Charlie Kirks rhetoric for Robinsons motivation to commit murder. Hence arguing who is the better side in a political left/right dichotomy, is carnal vanity and not a substantive matter of policy.
Says the group of people who criticized Trump for saying, "there were some very fine people on both sides. And I am not talking about the neo-nazis."
 
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Bradskii

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Says the group of people who criticized Trump for saying, "there were some very fine people on both sides. And I am not talking about the neo-nazis."
I think that the implication was that the discussion was about what one might describe as 'reasonable people'. Trump is not included within that definition. If one is looking for ways to get out of this death spiral of one side blaming the other for violence, quoting someone who is part of the very problem you're trying to solve is not a great idea.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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I think that the implication was that the discussion was about what one might describe as 'reasonable people'. Trump is not included within that definition. If one is looking for ways to get out of this death spiral of one side blaming the other for violence, quoting someone who is part of the very problem you're trying to solve is not a great idea.
When asked if political violence is ever acceptable, the vast majority of people who consider themselves "left" could not bring themselves to say "no," the correct answer. Things will not get better until the left realize they have a huge problem, and the problem goes deeper than Trump.
 
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Bradskii

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When asked if political violence is ever acceptable, the vast majority of people who consider themselves "left" could not bring themselves to say "no," the correct answer. Things will not get better until the left realize they have a huge problem, and the problem goes deeper than Trump.
Ye gods. I point out that Trump is part of the problem because all he does is blame the left for it. And you respond by doing exactly the same and blaming the left for it. He can't help it and it seems that you can't either.

I should be pleased that you've proved my point, but funnily enough all I feel is frustrated and a little more depressed.
 
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JosephZ

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When asked if political violence is ever acceptable, the vast majority of people who consider themselves "left" could not bring themselves to say "no," the correct answer.
Do you have a source for this?
 
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JosephZ

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Thanks for the link, that one led me to the You.gov site where I could see a better breakdown of the responses. When the member I quoted claimed that the vast majority of people who consider themselves "left" couldn't bring themselves to say no when asked if political violence is ever acceptable, I knew that couldn't be accurate. The majority of those who identify as liberal, of course, had no problem saying political violence is never justified. Only 21% said they think it's justified for citizens to resort to violence in order to achieve political goals, and another 18% either refused to answer or were not sure.
 
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rjs330

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Thanks for the link, that one led me to the You.gov site where I could see a better breakdown of the responses. When the member I quoted claimed that the vast majority of people who consider themselves "left" couldn't bring themselves to say no when asked if political violence is ever acceptable, I knew that couldn't be accurate. The majority of those who identify as liberal, of course, had no problem saying political violence is never justified. Only 21% said they think it's justified for citizens to resort to violence in order to achieve political goals, and another 18% either refused to answer or were not sure.
21% is an AWFULLY high number dont you think? Can you imagine what would be said if 21% of white people said they supported the hanging of black people? I'm not sure that was even the case during the Jim Crow days. I could be wrong on that, I dont know, but if that was the day today. Wow, we'd never hear the end of it.

In fact 22% very liberal people were okay with it while 22% didn't know. WHAT!? Didn't know? How on earth can they not know? The answer is simple. No its not okay. This is a serious problem.

Now we go wirh those that are just liberal. We are STILL at 30% That think its okay or dont know. Again. A problem.

So 44% of liberals say its okay or dont know. What a justification.

If conservatives at a rate of 44% thought it was okay to harm black people or didnt know if it was okay or not, we'd have a HUGE problem on our hands.
 
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Nithavela

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He was radical left!
Oh no he wasn't!
Oh yes he was!

Repeat ad nauseum.

What is this? A bloody tennis match? The side with the most points gets to feel smug?
The best part is that both sides get to decide that they have the most points.
 
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childeye 2

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Says the group of people who criticized Trump for saying, "there were some very fine people on both sides. And I am not talking about the neo-nazis."
Probably the same people who criticized Trump for drawing a false equivalence between Russia and Ukraine for starting the war.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Thanks for the link, that one led me to the You.gov site where I could see a better breakdown of the responses. When the member I quoted claimed that the vast majority of people who consider themselves "left" couldn't bring themselves to say no when asked if political violence is ever acceptable, I knew that couldn't be accurate. The majority of those who identify as liberal, of course, had no problem saying political violence is never justified. Only 21% said they think it's justified for citizens to resort to violence in order to achieve political goals, and another 18% either refused to answer or were not sure.

Sort by politics, and you will find that only 38% of democrats said it is always unacceptable. My mistake was saying democrats refused to answer "no" when asked if political violence is ever acceptable. The poll i was thinking about is when answering "no" when asked if it is acceptable to be happy for the death of a political figure they oppose.
 
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Larniavc

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Except we can, by and large know what is left and what is right by a person's position on most issues.
In America yes. But America in an outlier in that respect.
 
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Larniavc

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childeye 2

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Except we can, by and large know what is left and what is right by a person's position on most issues.

Can we? Can we even agree on some objective terminology? Left and right are metaphors for opposing views, but they could also imply opposing powers such as federal vs state. As a single binary framework, the left/right dichotomy is limited in its analytics. For example, when framed as liberal/conservative in the classic sense of on one hand being open to different opinions or on the other hand supporting tradition, those words imply --> open to change/against change. <-- In this simple framing most issues actually overlap around an abstract center, but it's so generalized in sentiment that it doesn't even describe the actual policies that should change or shouldn't change nor why, it simply denotes a history of precedents on the right, and a response to the current status quo on the left.

Moreover, fundamental differences in policy making are going to be over the role of government, but since people can use different words to express the same sentiments, and differing sentiments can be expressed using the same words, the chances of communication breakdown are imminent. An objective view can be obscured through subjective language. Hence, propaganda is designed to manipulate minds using subjective terminology and work the ends against the middle. That is not in the interests of society as a whole, so whoever is lying to manipulate the people by obscuring the issues, is intent on sowing chaos.

This is why I strongly recommend noting those who slander others, because it's a simple agreement that slander is an enemy of the people.

We can also mostly determine what is far right. For example, white supremacy would be far right. Facism, far right. Christian Nationalism could be considered far right depending on the definition for example a Theocracy. Nazis would be considered far right.
It may seem as if we can say what constitutes the right. If we call the left open for change then the right simply implies the status quo. But all of the far right depicted above is not actually representative of the status quo in the history of our republic. I can anticipate that someone will bring up slavery and white supremacy as part of our history, but the reality is that any policies that would try and make white skinned people better people is more representative of totalitarianism and not representative of liberty and justice for all.

The central issue is going to first be the role government should play. The question of how to govern best is where ideologies become the more apparent. Even if we need to read between the lines, I think it's fair to say that the dynamics of power are going to inevitably lead to follow the money.
I would even suggest that the removal of all taxes and all safety nets would be considered far right. Thats what we would consider far right.
Note that earlier you said white supremacy, fascism, christian nationalism, <--These all were depicted as far right yet none of them have anything to do with removal of taxes and all safety nets. But I think we can agree that our history shows that there was a time when there were no federal income taxes and subsequently, no safety nets funded by government.
Conservatives in general reject those ideologies flat out, even though they are typically on the right and don't support them.
Exactly, conservatism is being grossly mischaracterized so long as it's being grouped with ideologies that are based upon negative prejudices which real conservatives would have nothing to do with. To have a valid left/right dichotomy they have to both be valid substantive opposing views. The simplest comprehension of the liberal/conservative dichotomy would show that every person is sometimes liberal and sometimes conservative.
So what is far left as defined by the left and what far left positions are not typically supported by the left in general?
I think the Democracy/autocracy dichotomy is the most consistent in its objectivity because it doesn't rely on personal interpretation. It shows the centralizing and decentralizing of power in a binary frame. We can actually see ideologies and policies that reflect whether power is being centralized or decentralized. And if we follow the money, we can see if policies are empowering the rich to the detriment of the vast majority, or whether they are empowering the people as a whole.

Pure communism would be on the far left in the Democracy/autocracy dichotomy since theoretically power would be decentralized to the most possible extreme, which can never be implemented realistically. This is why we have a republic.
 
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