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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Three ICE detainees shot, 2 dead, at ICE facility in Dallas; suspected shooter committed suicide.
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Oompa Loompa
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If you are suggesting that ICE put those bullets there in order to paint the shooter as a left winger thats a pretty big conspiracy.
We've had a LOT of attacks on ICE and ICE facilities and everyone has been left wing atracks. Suddenly you want to claim that ICE needs to fake bullets in order to say it was a left winger?
Its nonsensical.
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- Oct 17, 2011
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Dallas ICE shooter was targeting agents, not detainees: Officials
He allegedly left behind a note that said, "Hopefully this will give ICE agents real terror, to think, 'is there a sniper with AP rounds on that roof?'" Patel said in a statement, the note referring to armor-piercing bullets."He conducted multiple searches of ballistics and the 'Charlie Kirk Shot Video'" on Tuesday and Wednesday, Patel said.
Investigators have not found that Jahn was a member of any specific group, Larson said. No government agency was mentioned in his notes other than ICE, but he did express a "hatred for the federal government," Larson said.
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Oompa Loompa
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Oompa Loompa
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Yep. Some people say the truth is stranger than fiction. But I find Occam's Razor to be the most accurate to political violence.
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Bradskii
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He was radical left!
Oh no he wasn't!
Oh yes he was!
Repeat ad nauseum.
What is this? A bloody tennis match? The side with the most points gets to feel smug?
Good grief...
Oh no he wasn't!
Oh yes he was!
Repeat ad nauseum.
What is this? A bloody tennis match? The side with the most points gets to feel smug?
Good grief...
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- Oct 17, 2009
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Seems like the ones committing the violence do too--they are all using bolt action rifles now. Have you noticed that? Looks like those will have to be on the ban list instead of AR15s.
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- Sep 4, 2005
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While it is emblematic of how far devolved US politics has gotten...
It only became "a contest" because one faction basically has gone out of their way to expand and water down definitions to be able to say "See the other guys are more extremist" for the past decade.
...and have started setting a higher bar for proof of which "side" a person is on to boot when the targets have been their political opponents.
When a nutjob went and shot at the CDC, the target of the shooter's ire plus a few social media posts were all people needed to be confident in accurately identifying "which side he's on...and whose rhetoric fueled the flames"
A defense of "well, for all we know, this guy could be a super left-wing, and perhaps he just held this one right-wing view on covid vaccines, but apart from that, he could've been uber progressive" would've been laughed out of the room and quickly dismissed.
Yet when some of the recent incidents are going in the other direction, all of the sudden there's a much higher bar for such designations, and people on the left are willing to entertain the possibility "ad hoc" extreme positions going in the other direction.
"For all we know, this guy could've been a right winger who just held this one specific position that was contrary to the rest of the right-wing positions" Yeah...sure
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Oompa Loompa
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Bradskii
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Great. Agree it's a problem. And then say:
It's the left that is the problem!
Oh no it isn't!
Oh yes it is!
Repeat ad nauseum. Total the score. Winner goes home feeling smug.
Thank you ball boys, thank you linesmen.
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- Sep 4, 2005
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But simply acknowledging the current state of affairs without discussing what led to it isn't helpful.
People on the left suggesting "we need to rise above that shallow standard, and think more critically and allow for nuance" only after it's some of their peeps in the hot seat rings hollow.
In more plain terms:
If "they attacked someone considered to be Left, then we can just immediately attribute the attack to right-wing rhetoric" was the rule of thumb for 10 years, then revoking that standard when circumstances change just seems like a disingenuous defense mechanism.
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Bradskii
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It shouldn't be that difficult for you to ascertain the problem. Just look at the posts in this forum. Including yours. It's a microcosm of the nation's political 'discourse'. It's nothing but Us v Them.
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- Oct 17, 2009
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Yep! It's just strange that it takes these kinds of people to demonstrate that.
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Said by a guy who's clearly an us vs them guy. Ive heard the rhetoric from you and the words said about us right wingers.
I have one question and it is, are you personally going to stop?
And are you going to going to tell anyone on your side to stop with the rhetoric tossed around on your side.
Because we on the right are not going to be able to do that. Those on the left have to police their own.
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childeye 2
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My daddy can beat up your daddy is not a substantive policy worthy of being framed in a left/right dichotomy. <-- this should be common sense.
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childeye 2
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The terms left and right are metaphorical in politics. They are used to represent opposing subjective views on various policy matters that are of valid interest to a society. Most people are left on some issues and right on other issues. Therefore, far right or far left carry no meaning until there is a substantive issue where the terms left and right can be applicable.
The left/right dichotomy is structured to be an analytical tool, but some people improperly use it for propaganda, division, tribalism, ad hominem attacks, accusation, insinuation, and slander. These types of propaganda can and do twist minds, stoking undue angst against others, creating paranoias when believed upon, and subsequently justifying violence in the minds of people who have become disconnected from reality through propaganda.
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