Limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

All you have is your one liner responses.

Then thats all i need

 

[Brightfame52]

Submitting to Christ and putting your faith and trust in Him as your personal Lord and Savior is not a work. Scripture differentiates between faith and works (Ephesians 2:8-9, James 2), so why don't you?

Also, did you not even read the passage that tall73 quoted?

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Jesus said "whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it". Are you denying that one must be willing to give up their lives for His sake in order to be saved even though Jesus clearly said so?

Salvation is limited to an elect people.

 

[Brightfame52]

Do you not think our enemies include those who are not reconciled to God by the death of His Son? Why do you always try to get around the truth? Our enemies includes those who are not saved and Jesus said that we should love them. He would not command us to do that if He didn't love all of His enemies as well.

This isnt about my enemies

 

[Brightfame52]

Calvinism is essentially defined by belief in Unconditional election and predestination where the only thing that separates the saved from the damned is God's decision.

And Gods Grace

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

You seem confused. Unconditional election is built into TULIP, so if you believe TULIP then you believe in unconditional election. Which means that God is selecting who to save, and by extension damning those He does not select. Wesleyans believe in election based on foreknowledge, whereas Calvinism is essentially defined by belief in Unconditional election and predestination where the only thing that separates the saved from the damned is God's decision.

You're correct—I don't believe in unconditional elections without foreknowledge as described by John Calvin. But I don’t believe the conditional election by John Wesly either.

A primary concern regarding Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election involves the interpretation that God predestines certain individuals to condemnation, which is inconsistent with Biblical principles. Scripture often highlight God's desire for all people to receive salvation and He does not wish for any to perish. On the other hand, Wesley’s emphasis on free will presents its own challenges: an individual considered to be in a state of depravity cannot, by their own free will alone, choose God. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is essential, as it precedes repentance and acceptance of Christ. Ultimately, the relationship with God must be initiated by God Himself, as no one can choose Him independently.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Salvation is limited to an elect people.

Agree.

But the question is how an individual chosen prior to the foundation of the world? Is this selection based on the person being "special" to God, while those not elected are viewed less favorably by God?

 

[Fervent]

You're correct—I don't believe in unconditional elections without foreknowledge as described by John Calvin. But I don’t believe the conditional election by John Wesly either.

A primary concern regarding Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election involves the interpretation that God predestines certain individuals to condemnation, which is inconsistent with Biblical principles. Scripture often highlight God's desire for all people to receive salvation and He does not wish for any to perish. On the other hand, Wesley’s emphasis on free will presents its own challenges: an individual considered to be in a state of depravity cannot, by their own free will alone, choose God. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is essential, as it precedes repentance and acceptance of Christ. Ultimately, the relationship with God must be initiated by God Himself, as no one can choose Him independently.

Wesleyan theology includes a general, prevenient grace, that enables sinners to respond. The false dilemma between Pelagianism and Augustinianism has created a great deal of acrimony in the church, as the options are not between being able to merit salvation in our own right or being so thoroughly defiled by sin that we cannot possibly respond positively to God's gracious offer without some special enabling.

 

[Brightfame52]

Is this selection based on the person being "special" to God, while those not elected are viewed less favorably by God?

Yes, but their being special in themselves wasn't the reason, but special by the sovereign choice of God for reasons found solely in Himself. And He sovereignly chose not to elect the rest to salvation but to positively dam them for their sins in His Just hate for them

 

[tall73]

Yes, but their being special in themselves wasn't the reason, but special by the sovereign choice of God for reasons found solely in Himself. And He sovereignly chose not to elect the rest to salvation but to positively dam them for their sins in His Just hate for them

And to clarify, are you the sort of Calvinist who thinks that every action and thought was meticulously decreed by God prior to creation? Would you see every sin as ordained? Would you see every event of history, and every mundane cat meme on the internet as decreed from the beginning?

 

[tall73]

Since Jesus loved him, He shall save him.

And what about those times when people reject God's will for themselves?

Luke 7:29-30​

29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. (NKJV)​

 

[dms1972]

There is an incredibly simplistic and I have to say immature understanding of what Calvinism is, running through this thread. CH Spurgeon's sermon Salvation by Knowing the Truth IMO is therefore particularly pertinent, as it represents a mature exposition of the Calvinist view.

​

Link to the full sermon.

The Spurgeon Library | Salvation by Knowing the Truth

www.spurgeon.org

​

 

[dms1972]

You're correct—I don't believe in unconditional elections without foreknowledge as described by John Calvin. But I don’t believe the conditional election by John Wesley either.

A primary concern regarding Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election involves the interpretation that God predestines certain individuals to condemnation, which is inconsistent with Biblical principles. Scripture often highlight God's desire for all people to receive salvation and He does not wish for any to perish. On the other hand, Wesley’s emphasis on free will presents its own challenges: an individual considered to be in a state of depravity cannot, by their own free will alone, choose God. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is essential, as it precedes repentance and acceptance of Christ. Ultimately, the relationship with God must be initiated by God Himself, as no one can choose Him independently.

Wesley wasn't a strict Arminian as I mentioned earlier. I don't agree with all his theology. But in the end he preached the Gospel not his own theology and that is why many came to Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

And to clarify, are you the sort of Calvinist who thinks that every action and thought was meticulously decreed by God prior to creation? Would you see every sin as ordained? Would you see every event of history, and every mundane cat meme on the internet as decreed from the beginning?

Yes Eph 1:11

 

[Brightfame52]

And what about those times when people reject God's will for themselves?

Luke 7:29-30​

29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. (NKJV)​

That's a misleading translation because you can't reject God's Sovereign will for you.Those boys just did not see no need for repentance

 

[David Lamb]

That's a misleading translation because you can't reject God's Sovereign will for you.Those boys just did not see no need for repentance

I see what you mean, but it seems the word can mean both "counsel" and "will". In the KJV, it is translated, "will" here:

Ac 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will <1012> of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Yes, but their being special in themselves wasn't the reason, but special by the sovereign choice of God for reasons found solely in Himself. And He sovereignly chose not to elect the rest to salvation but to positively dam them for their sins in His Just hate for them

This is the sad reality of John Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election which is based on a few out-of-context Bible verses, which contradict the broader message of the scripture that God's love extends to everyone.

 

[tall73]

That's a misleading translation because you can't reject God's Sovereign will for you.Those boys just did not see no need for repentance

It is not a misleading translation. But if you think so, please give us a better translation:

Luke 7:30​

0 οἱ δὲ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ οἱ νομικοὶ τὴν βουλὴν τοῦ θεοῦ ἠθέτησαν εἰς ἑαυτούς, μὴ βαπτισθέντες ὑπ᾽ αὐτοῦ.​

And perhaps you can give us a better translation of Ephesians 1:11, because it uses the same word:

Ephesians 1:11​

ἐν αὐτῷ, ἐν ᾧ καὶ ἐκληρώθημεν προορισθέντες κατὰ πρόθεσιν τοῦ τὰ πάντα ἐνεργοῦντος κατὰ τὴν βουλὴν τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ​

Or you may put down the one liners and examine the various contexts further.

 

[Brightfame52]

This is the sad reality of John Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election which is based on a few out-of-context Bible verses, which contradict the broader message of the scripture that God's love extends to everyone.

Has nothing to do with calvin, the issue is with the word of God you having. You guys just pawn it off as calvin

 

[Brightfame52]

It is not a misleading translation

Yes it is, man cant reject the will of God for his life, its not possible. Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Thats like saying those men staid His Hand !

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Has nothing to do with calvin, the issue is with the word of God you having. You guys just pawn it off as calvin

OK, then leave Calivin out then.

Anyone who selects only a few verses from the Bible to conclude that God chooses millions of individuals, whom He created in His own image, for damnation, is presenting a claim that is unfounded. Such an interpretation demonstrates a misunderstanding of the nature of God or Bible.