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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

He Who Must (xxx) Be Named

rusmeister

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I frequently watched the videos of the debates and discussions on YouTube, and was quite impressed. A Christian young man, the age of my oldest son, going to college campuses and talking about morality, social issues, and the need for Christ to college students on the territory of the Enemy. Of course I didn't agree with everything he said or thought, but on the whole, a good man, bright thinker, a Christian Ben Shapiro in a way, and when I saw the testimonies of people who he had led to change their minds and straighten out their lives, it was even better.

Then the horrible week, which began with the Catholic school shooting, the Ukrainian girl’s senseless murder, with both the murder and the judge responsible for his unconditional release followed, and then the murder of Charlie Kirk. It was almost as if it had been my own son that had been murdered, or a version that I wish, and hope my son might become. But the truly horrible thing, worse than any insane maniac getting a hold of a gun, was the reaction of seemingly up to a quarter of the population of the country cheering that murder, or the very least approving of it, and completely indifferent to the horror of it, because they disagreed with something, or other, or everything that he said. Most of them hate Christ and the Christian faith, but some, oddly are actually Christians, who believe that some of his policies are anti-Christian. Now one can understand and debate that, of course, but the complete lack of Christian sympathy for another, even if heterodox Christian husband and father and the approval of murder if it went in the perceived correct political direction, was even more shocking and saddening, if that’s possible than the murder itself.

There are other questions and strange moments. Did the shooter truly act purely alone? Did anyone else encourage or put him up to it? Since it seems, we are never going to see justice for all of the rich and powerful men that used children on Epstein’s Island, and that is the issue, the desire that our country be a country ruled by law, and justice being an absolutely essential element of that, we probably may never know the complete truth about this shooting. That all of the people who attempt these things are consistently publicly declared to be lone shooters, and none at all to be of a conspiratorial nature seems to have reached a point of improbability.

And it seems a real turning point has been reached. The winds are blowing against the social revolution attempting to overthrow all Western and Christian tradition known as “woke”; on all fronts they are in retreat and on the defensive. As long as they are peacefully driven out, that is a good thing, but what is not good is people who are so concerned about the government’s debatable responsibility to care for illegal immigrants that they are willing to shrug at such a murder. This is a concern both on the civil level with our neighbors and co-workers and those we depend upon in society, many of who have turned out to be teachers, medical workers, the people we might depend upon for our own lives in an emergency, and so on, AND in the Church with our brothers and sisters in Christ that we worship with. Obviously, we have to keep a spotlight on ourselves at all times and avoid the temptation to see “them” as especially evil, and “us” as especially good.

Where is all this going? I don’t know. Of course, I would like to see a restoration of Christendom in our land, even if it were only a heterodox one. But in any event, it does seem like things are coming to a point faster and faster. I certainly hope that in TAW there is none of the approval, or justification, or excusing of the murder that I have seen in wider Orthodox circles, no matter how one may dislike some of the man’s ideas. I doubt there is going to be a genuine return to Christendom; it would require a mass, personal and national repentance, and a rolling back of far more than just the very latest perversions, but a general restoration of morality in public order, and I think too much toothpaste has been squeezed out of the tube to put it back in, and if that is so, then our nation doesn’t have that much time left, certainly not as the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Other people have said better words than mine, but because there has been such a dead silence here over such a momentous event, I thought that something ought to be said.
 

Seraphim .

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I certainly hope that in TAW there is none of the approval, or justification, or excusing of the murder that I have seen in wider Orthodox circles

Brother, I am scared to even broach the topic of politics on here. It seems to lead to sin when you even think about it.

Honestly, it seems to lead to fighting every single time a political thing is mentioned, not just fighting but intense stuff. Not just on here either, elsewhere it's even worse than on here, but even on here the fighting is hard to read on many a thread. I've seen some rough stuff going on in this Orthodox forum too.

I know I am a sinner and have no right to judge anyone else, but it makes me sad when I see other Christians who are otherwise doing well, fall purely due to talking about politics online. What a dreadful thing that is.
 
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rusmeister

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Brother, I am scared to even broach the topic of politics on here. It seems to lead to sin when you even think about it.

Honestly, it seems to lead to fighting every single time a political thing is mentioned, not just fighting but intense stuff. Not just on here either, elsewhere it's even worse than on here, but even on here the fighting is hard to read on many a thread. I've seen some rough stuff going on in this Orthodox forum too.

I know I am a sinner and have no right to judge anyone else, but it makes me sad when I see other Christians who are otherwise doing well, fall purely due to talking about politics online. What a dreadful thing that is.
I think it right to be cautious. But the word “politics” is not a shibboleth, but the discussion of how to order our affairs in this world by what is in our power (which is generally less than we might imagine it to be), just as “religion” is about how we prepare for the next world, the world to come.

I think sin is not in merely talking about politics, but in falling into pride, leading us to insult or belittle others, to confuse people with their ideas, forgetting that they are NOT their ideas and have the power to change their minds. That is precisely the contrast between Charlie Kirk and his sad and blinded murderer. The one recognized that difference and so visited campuses in that attempt to get people to change their minds and turn towards Christ (that his understandings were Protestant Evangelical makes no difference to us here); the other did not, and so resorted to murder.

But yes, judging others, particularly their status before God because of their opinions, is sin. an attitude of humility towards the things we know we are not quite so sure and will informed about, and more tolerant attitude of “you’ll understand when you’re older“ without communicating that in a condescending manner would help guard us against such judgment.
 
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Chesterton

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At this point It transcends politics. This is good vs. evil. I've seen the demonic celebrations, and the destruction of memorials and attacks on prayer vigils, and the mockery and insults and lies about a good man. There's a cosmic battle. Choose your side.
 
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rusmeister

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At this point It transcends politics. This is good vs. evil. I've seen the demonic celebrations, and the destruction of memorials and attacks on prayer vigils, and the mockery and insults and lies about a good man. There's a cosmic battle. Choose your side.
I think, of all the minds and hearts, the ones that seem to me to be of the greatest concern are those of our fellow Christians, especially fellow Orthodox Christians. And it comes to this: the people attacking Charlie Kirk, and or at least tacitly approving of or being secretly pleased at his murder who consider themselves Christian do so because of political disagreement and concerns of this world, the belief that the government itself is responsible for fulfilling the commands given to individual Christians - abstract concerns about, say, immigration or racial conflict, where we might even agree if a specific confirmed injustice is pointed out. Such people read the command to give to the poor and feed to the hungry and look to the government to do that for them, that is, they look to other people’s money and resources rather than their own, a way to imagine that one is fulfilling those commands without really sacrificing anything. that’s why I think those people are on the wrong side. Also, you are right about the mockery, insults, and lies about a good man. A great many of them never heard of him until he was killed. I have been watching his videos for the past several years and while I don’t agree with everything, in the main he was a bright young man expressing what for the most part we would agree are Christian moral views. I wish to heaven that my oldest son, who is his age, would be more like him.

The world, of course, is going to hate people who stand up for Christ, even heterodox Christians. The real concern for us is when those of us who call ourselves Christian take the side of the world.
 
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Chesterton

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I think, of all the minds and hearts, the ones that seem to me to be of the greatest concern are those of our fellow Christians, especially fellow Orthodox Christians. And it comes to this: the people attacking Charlie Kirk, and or at least tacitly approving of or being secretly pleased at his murder who consider themselves Christian do so because of political disagreement and concerns of this world, the belief that the government itself is responsible for fulfilling the commands given to individual Christians - abstract concerns about, say, immigration or racial conflict, where we might even agree if a specific confirmed injustice is pointed out.
I haven't come across any professing Christians attacking Kirk, but I guess it shouldn't surprise me that there are some.
Such people read the command to give to the poor and feed to the hungry and look to the government to do that for them, that is, they look to other people’s money and resources rather than their own, a way to imagine that one is fulfilling those commands without really sacrificing anything. that’s why I think those people are on the wrong side.
Yes, it's very easy to be a cheerful giver of other people's money.
Also, you are right about the mockery, insults, and lies about a good man. A great many of them never heard of him until he was killed. I have been watching his videos for the past several years and while I don’t agree with everything, in the main he was a bright young man expressing what for the most part we would agree are Christian moral views.
I was surprised he is more popular than I knew. All over, including people of Japan and South Korea, were memorializing him. And that could draw people to Christ. That's one silver lining in this tragedy.
I wish to heaven that my oldest son, who is his age, would be more like him.
I wish I were more like him. Since the murder, I've felt a lot of anger and hate.
 
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Not being in or from the US, I have no particular horse in American political goings on, though we do have clear parallels in the UK and our own issues (which I don't get too involved in either).

What I wanted to add here was that from an outsider perspective, Charlie Kirk's murder seems significant, up there with Trump's election in 2016. Republican reactions, Democrat reactions, reactions to those reactions. I think the ripples will travel far and wide. There's something that feels like the world shifted, though it'll be a while before we see if that's for the better or the worse.

Lord have mercy. May His will be done.
 
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