US will ‘overhaul’ the citizenship test

[BCP1928]

It's also possible you haven't observed what some of us have observed.. Would your German ancestor who had to show he'd renounced allegiance to the Kaiser have flown a German flag? Did he make no effort to learn English? Did he consider himself an American or a German who was in America?

In the 1980s, I went through a Hispanic area with Mexican flags.

I know lots of areas like that. Most of them are in those parts of the country which used to belong to Mexico. They fly Mexican flags for much the same reasons that residents of the South like to fly Confederate flags.

We happen serve one such area that doesn't fly flags but was pretty much separate. Not a bad place, but almost insular. We also serve another area that isn't insular and where the residents have made an effort to assimilate, and it's a noticeable difference. Before my children were born, I happened to be in a bank when a bus with immigrants came up. As I waited, I noticed they were depositing their checks into accounts instead of cashing them and thought "That's the next middle class." And that turned out to be pretty much correct. Those I saw that day were making an effort to assimilate.

In the latter part of the 19th century many Gemans immigrated to the Upper Midwest. They settled down with farms and businesses, started towns, all in German. They celebrated Germany holidays, published German language newspapers and generally lived their lives as Germans. Even the language of instruction in many of the public schools in the region was German. This went on for decades and they didn't "assimilate" until the US entered the war against Germany in 1917.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

In the latter part of the 19th century many Gemans immigrated to the Upper Midwest. They settled down with farms and businesses, started towns, all in German. They celebrated Germany holidays, published German language newspapers and generally lived their lives as Germans. Even the language of instruction in many of the public schools in the region was German. This went on for decades and they didn't "assimilate" until the US entered the war against Germany in 1917.

Yep - one of my grandparents was from that group (technically they were from Ukraine though - part of Catherine the Great's Black Sea Germans). My great grandparents barely spoke any English at all despite emigrating to the US as children in the late 1800s. There are similar groups from many parts of Eastern Europe - Poles, Slovaks, and Slovenians all had (and to some extent still have) distinct national identities within the US. See, for example, the SNPJ.

 

[durangodawood]

Reading some of the posts above it seems like assimilate! is a demand that falls heaviest on non-white people. Probably because just looking white already gets you halfway there.

 

[durangodawood]

....People hate Trump, I get it, but Trump being in power is an outgrowth of the possibilities afforded by said institutions and founding philosophies.

Thats pretty weak. Basically youre saying Trump is allowed for by our particular republican system. Theres nothing in our system that favors a Trump type*.

So if a person thinks that outcome is unacceptable, they're saying the institutions and philosophies that laid the groundwork for that outcome are unacceptable.....

No they arent, typically. They are saying American culture is unacceptable. They see a disturbing mindset taking hold among the people.

(*The exception being the electoral college system which boosts the voting power of Trump oriented types over others. That is a distinctly institutional issue that gets a lot of criticism. But I still think in the minds of potential escapees it pales next to their fear of where the culture generally is going.)

 

[essentialsaltes]

Reading some of the posts above it seems like assimilate! is a demand that falls heaviest on non-white people. Probably because just looking white already gets you halfway there.

Right, I haven't heard complaints (this century) about the Italian flags in many East Coast neighborhoods. I mean, this is a particular festival, but there are plenty of neighborhoods where year round flags are common.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It's also possible you haven't observed what some of us have observed.. Would your German ancestor who had to show he'd renounced allegiance to the Kaiser have flown a German flag?

I think you mised the point were he was asked to renounced allegience to a government he never lived under. Southern Germany was "Unified" into Prussia after he left, so I don't know why he would had allegence to the German Empire or its flag. (I supposed they had renounce something.)

Now my grandmother was known to fly the Swiss flag on a 30-foot pole in the rural midwest. I've seen it myself. Her parents were probably naturalized, but I never met them either.

Did he make no effort to learn English? Did he consider himself an American or a German who was in America?

I don't know. His regiment didn't give its commands in anything but English, so certainly he knew some English. The parish he helped found held services in German until after he died.

I don't know why any of this matters, or why people get so uptight about "assimilation" (or rather the "failures" to assimilate.)

In the 1980s, I went through a Hispanic area with Mexican flags. We happen serve one such area that doesn't fly flags but was pretty much separate. Not a bad place, but almost insular. We also serve another area that isn't insular and where the residents have made an effort to assimilate, and it's a noticeable difference. Before my children were born, I happened to be in a bank when a bus with immigrants came up. As I waited, I noticed they were depositing their checks into accounts instead of cashing them and thought "That's the next middle class." And that turned out to be pretty much correct. Those I saw that day were making an effort to assimilate.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Thats pretty weak. Basically youre saying Trump is allowed for by our particular republican system. Theres nothing in our system that favors a Trump type*.

But that's the point, it doesn't favor any *type. (with the exception of people 35 and older)

Our system allows for AOC to Trump and everything in between.

If people don't like that level of variable possibility, then they don't like our system.

Because a system that would restrict leadership to one person's "safe overton window" would omit people from someone else's overton window.

 

[Tuur]

I don't know why any of this matters, or why people get so uptight about "assimilation" (or rather the "failures" to assimilate.)

A failure to assimilate is different than never having a desire to assimilate. A naturalized citizen I know, who has been in the US for decades, said there were still things that reminded her that she was not born into US culture. Yet she's more patriotic than many who're born here.

As to renouncing allegiance to someone who wasn't the head of a country of origin, I think part of the oath of citizenship renounces allegiance to where you came from. That's pretty much standard.

I kept trying to think of instances of assimilation where it would be more clear. I hate to rely on "you know it when you see it."

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't know why any of this matters, or why people get so uptight about "assimilation" (or rather the "failures" to assimilate.)

Because it shows that one actually appreciates the culture, institutions, etc... and isn't just here for a paycheck.

Ultimately, that will determine how they'll end up interacting with other members of society.

Typically (and I think this is true of most civilized societies) people want neighbors and community members, not insular economic transients.

 

[Hans Blaster]

A failure to assimilate is different than never having a desire to assimilate. A naturalized citizen I know, who has been in the US for decades, said there were still things that reminded her that she was not born into US culture. Yet she's more patriotic than many who're born here.

As to renouncing allegiance to someone who wasn't the head of a country of origin, I think part of the oath of citizenship renounces allegiance to where you came from. That's pretty much standard.

I don't think you quite get the idea. The country he was from didn't exist anymore.

I kept trying to think of instances of assimilation where it would be more clear. I hate to rely on "you know it when you see it."

 

[durangodawood]

But that's the point, it doesn't favor any *type. (with the exception of people 35 and older)

Our system allows for AOC to Trump and everything in between.

If people don't like that level of variable possibility, then they don't like our system.

Because a system that would restrict leadership to one person's "safe overton window" would omit people from someone else's overton window.

I laid it all out for you in the next section of my post you responded to. Its not the system that dismays them so much as its the emerging culture here in America.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Because it shows that one actually appreciates the culture, institutions, etc... and isn't just here for a paycheck.

Why should I assimilate to the culture I live in. I ain't sayin' "yall" no matter what.

Ultimately, that will determine how they'll end up interacting with other members of society.

Typically (and I think this is true of most civilized societies) people want neighbors and community members, not insular economic transients.

I am just here for the paycheck.

 

[Tuur]

I don't think you quite get the idea. The country he was from didn't exist anymore.

Yet you're not seeming to get that the whole thing about the American Melting Pot is "It doesn't matter where you came from; you're an American now."

 

[BCP1928]

Yet you're not seeming to get that the whole thing about the American Melting Pot is "It doesn't matter where you came from; you're an American now."

That's right. Pass the test and take the oath. There is no "culture" test or "culture" oath required.

 

[BCP1928]

Because it shows that one actually appreciates the culture, institutions, etc... and isn't just here for a paycheck.

They took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; bearing true faith and allegiance to the same." That takes care of their appreciation of the institutions. They only have to tolerate the culture, just like the rest of us.

Ultimately, that will determine how they'll end up interacting with other members of society.

Typically (and I think this is true of most civilized societies) people want neighbors and community members, not insular economic transients.

That's true, and most immigrants want to be community members and good neighbors. What's your points?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Yet you're not seeming to get that the whole thing about the American Melting Pot is "It doesn't matter where you came from; you're an American now."

That's right. As Washington put it.

All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship.

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

People who are 'different' in some way are subject to no bigotry or persecution by the government, but rather have fully equal rights to enjoy liberty as their consciences dictate.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yet you're not seeming to get that the whole thing about the American Melting Pot is "It doesn't matter where you came from; you're an American now."

This doesn't have anything to do with the rather confused tangent that arose when I commented that the one naturalization document I'd seen (for my GG grandfather) had him disavowing allegiance to a government (the German Empire) that he had never lived under as he left the Kingdom of Württemberg in about 1855 and naturalized after Württemberg had been "unified" into the Prussian state.

This is all far from the point.

A change in allegiance is not assimilation.

 

[Tuur]

A change in allegiance is not assimilation.

Without slur of any sort, maybe you haven't had a chance to observe the difference. I find that interesting, because I would have assumed that there would of a chance of observing it in what I assume is an urban setting than in a rural one. That could be a factor of me having to meet the public. There's a distinct difference in the mindset of "I'll live and work here, but I won't be a citizen" and "I want to be an American." The same thing for Americans living and working abroad but with absolutely no interest in becoming a citizen there.

 

[Tuur]

People who are 'different' in some way are subject to no bigotry or persecution by the government, but rather have fully equal rights to enjoy liberty as their consciences dictate.

If we're supposed to be arguing about the quoted portion above, you'll have to find someone else because my only disagreement with that statement is they are not supposed to be subject to bigotry or persecution by the government. I assume we both know that what the government does is dependent on those the government hires, and those the government hires might well do both. A deliberate effort of bigotry and persecution by the US Government last happened during WWII with American citizens who were born in Japan and lived on the West Coast, and no, I don't think that was right, either.

Whether a non-citizen is subject to the same rights and liberty as citizens is another question, and not a recent one. I would have to re-read William Rawle for his take on that; at the moment I can't really recall it.

 

[BCP1928]

Without slur of any sort, maybe you haven't had a chance to observe the difference. I find that interesting, because I would have assumed that there would of a chance of observing it in what I assume is an urban setting than in a rural one. That could be a factor of me having to meet the public. There's a distinct difference in the mindset of "I'll live and work here, but I won't be a citizen" and "I want to be an American."

Exactly, and what we are discussing is what it means to "be an American."

The same thing for Americans living and working abroad but with absolutely no interest in becoming a citizen there.