Limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

Granted, but the term you use "sub-conscious" is open to misunderstanding. Better to say "at the roots of consciousness"

Apples for oranges, the point is, it occurs in the mind and hear at Gods will, we know nothing about a precise time it occurred, but the effects will be to start hearing and understanding spiritual truth

 

[dms1972]

What I don't accept is not so much the Total Depravity doctrine (and I understand it to mean our nature is affected by sin in all aspects, not that we are as bad as is possible to be) but the failure by some of the Reformed to realise there are also deprivations we are affected by in a fallen world, and to ignore this as some do leads to defective pastoral theology and care.

 

[dms1972]

Apples for oranges, the point is, it occurs in the mind and hear at Gods will, we know nothing about a precise time it occurred, but the effects will be to start hearing and understanding spiritual truth

"Apples for oranges" - what is that supposed to mean?

To be fair it was you who started the thread - and you have drawn a lot of opposition to your views, and you are still here 33 pages on arguing. What is the point? You thought you would win everyone to your standpoint?

Strict calvinism and strict arminianism are both theological aberrations and cannot be supported from Scripture. John Wesley was effective IMO because he wasn't a strict Arminian. CH Spurgeon was effective because he wasn't a strict Calvinist, as one can see from some of his sermons.

 

[Brightfame52]

"Apples for oranges" - what is that supposed to mean?

To be fair it was you who started the thread - and you have drawn a lot of opposition to your views, and you are still here 33 pages on arguing. What is the point? You thought you would win everyone to your standpoint?

Strict calvinism and strict arminianism are both theological aberrations and cannot be supported from Scripture. John Wesley was effective IMO because he wasn't a strict Arminian. CH Spurgeon was effective because he wasn't a strict Calvinist, as one can see from some of his sermons.

It meant what I stated

 

[dms1972]

Just read the Bible without trying to make it fit some theology . Its much better.

Approach the Word prayerfully with humility and let the Holy Spirit teach you. Word and Spirit. Make use of commentaries if you like.

That is what's wrong with much theology, its separated from true spirituality.

 

[tall73]

Man by nature does not seek God Romans 3:11

What do you think the point of Romans 1:18-3:20 is? That may help clarify a few things for me about your view. This quote is from the culmination of that section.

My view is that he is demonstrating how the whole world is guilty of sin, and cannot be saved by the law. They had evidence of God through creation, conscience, etc., and in the case of those who received the law, direct revelation. But they nonetheless turned away, sinned, did not seek after God, etc.

Romans 3:9-20​

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.​

10 As it is written:​

“There is none righteous, no, not one;​

11 There is none who understands;​

There is none who seeks after God.​

12 They have all turned aside;​

They have together become unprofitable;​

There is none who does good, no, not one.”​

13 “Their throat is an open tomb;​

With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;​

“The poison of asps is under their lips”;​

14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”​

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;​

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;​

17 And the way of peace they have not known.”​

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (NKJV)​

However, verse 21 introduces the gospel, righteousness apart from law, though witnessed by the law and prophets, which is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

It is the solution to the sin problem outlined in Romans 1:18-3:20.

Romans 3:21-26​

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (NKJV)​

Man cannot be saved by the law because all sin, all turn away, etc. But through the propitiation of Jesus there is now a new righteousness.

Paul indicates that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, right before launching into this section in Romans 1:13-17:

Romans 1:13-17​

13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles. 14 I am a debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to unwise. 15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” (NKJV)​

​

The gospel has power unto salvation. When Nicodemus heard Jesus, and saw the works, etc. He did come to Jesus to know more. But Jesus said he needed to be born again.

So whatever you call that grace working in him through the words of Jesus, it came before being born again, and was sufficient to draw him.

 

[tall73]

If he saught God he was born again

Another example. Cornelius is described in this way:

​

Acts 10:1-2​

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. (NKJV)​

But he was not yet saved, and had not yet had the Holy Spirit come upon him. And we know this from the text:

Acts 11:13-17​

13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” (NKJV)​

​

God had already been working in Cornelius, prior to his being saved, and prior to him receiving the Holy Spirit.

So are you distinguishing between regeneration and salvation/receiving the Holy Spirit?

 

[tall73]

Another example, the crowd at Pentecost was cut to the heart--but had not yet repented or received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:36-39​

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”​

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”​

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (NKJV)​

​

So is regeneration separate from repentance, or receiving the Holy Spirit?

 

[David Lamb]

Another example, the crowd at Pentecost was cut to the heart--but had not yet repented or received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:36-39​

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”​

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”​

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (NKJV)​

​

So is regeneration separate from repentance, or receiving the Holy Spirit?

I don't think that can be so because we are told that one cannot even be a Christian without the Holy Spirit:

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Ro 8:9 NKJV)

 

[tall73]

I don't think that can be so because we are told that one cannot even be a Christian without the Holy Spirit:

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Ro 8:9 NKJV)

I am pointing out the order.

They respond to the preaching of the gospel. They are cut to the heart. Peter then calls on them to

• repent
• be baptized
• and you shall receive the Holy Spirit

They were able to respond to the gospel, though they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. The gospel is the solution to the problem. God enables us to receive it.

Romans 8 is the continuation of 7, and is talking about how the Spirit did what the law could not, in that it was weakened by the flesh. You cannot live out a life pleasing to God without walking in the Spirit. The flesh does not submit to the law of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

What do you think the point of Romans 1:18-3:20 is? That may help clarify a few things for me about your view. This quote is from the culmination of that section.

I think it fits fine with the fact that man by nature doesnt seek God Rom 3:11

 

[Brightfame52]

Another example. Cornelius is described in this way:

If he was seeking the True God he was born again, naturally man doesnt seek after God

 

[ldonjohn]

Although I grew up in a fundamental Baptist church where I heard the gospel many times, as a young adult, I was lost, confused, and living in the darkness of unbelief; not sure that the bible was true or if God was real. I was not one of his sheep.

Fortunately, God worked in my life to draw me to seek the truth about him & about what believing the gospel really means. At around the age of 26 or 27 years old I began to seek God with all my heart, as in Jeremiah 29:13. I knew nothing about that bible verse at the time, but that verse describes the beginning of my journey.

Today, as I look back upon that miserable time in my life, I can see that the Holy Spirit was working in me to draw me to Christ. I began my search with a simple prayer to a God who I wasn't even sure existed, but with a hope that I would find an answer that would convince my troubled soul that somehow I could know without a doubt that God was real, that the bible is true, and that I would find the true meaning of "believe in Jesus."
I found my answer within 2 days after I began to read the gospel of John. From the first verse, John 1:1, I realized that something was showing me that those words were the absolute truth. It was as though a light was in some way leading me out of darkness, and the more I read into the Gospel of John the brighter that light became.

The next day I continued to read in John chapter 4, and when I reached John 6:37, the light came on full blast and I "got it." At that moment, a sense of relief overwhelmed my troubled soul. I was completely convinced that when Jesus died on the cross, he did all that God required for my sins to be forgiven. Yes, I also remembered the teaching from my growing up in church, but back then it meant noting to me. But, now I was searching for truth, and I found it. I knew that Jesus was waiting for me to come to him so he could forgive my sin and give me a new heart. I found myself talking to him as though he was right there in my room, and I was thanking him for paying the penalty for my sin and I asked him to give me the new heart that only he could give.

I just recounted the event that led me to become a born again believer in Jesus because I want to point out that without the working of the Holy Spirit in my life I would still be in the darkness of unbelief. The Holy Spirit was the light that brought me out of that darkness.

I believe that is the message Jesus was giving to Nicodemus.

Regards,

John

 

[tall73]

That is not true. I was fully aware when I was born again because I became much more aware of things spiritually than I was before. When you are born again, you know it. You can't have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and not be aware of it afterwards. Are you kidding me here?

It does seem far fetched that they indicate a man cannot respond to God at all until he is regenerated, and that after that he will follow God, seek God, love God, etc. and then claim that you cannot know when this happened.

 

[tall73]

I don't see the word "only" in Paul's statement. You added it. Again you commit the Negative Inference fallacy. The statement "He gave himself for the Church" does NOT mean that he gave himself only for the Church.

Yes, it is being done over and over in this thread.

If I say I love my family, that doesn't mean I don't love anyone besides my family.

 

[tall73]

Its what it means, He Loved His own in the world Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

The irony is that the Scriptures you cite are all related, and have the same solution, whether John 6, John 10, John 13, John 17 etc.

There were those who already loved God prior to Jesus' incarnation, and were looking for the Messiah. These recognized the voice of the True Shepherd when He came, because they already knew God, already believed Moses, already believed the Scriptures, already were true sheep of God's flock. Jesus chose some as His disciples (and some as the 70, etc.).

Jesus when He came to earth taught them, prayed for them and loved them, and ministered to them, because it was through their love the world would believe that Jesus was sent into the world.

​

John 17:6​

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. (NKJV)​

He manifested the Father's name to the men the Father gave Him out of the world. They belonged to the Father already, and He gave them to Jesus.

John 17:8​

8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. (NKJV)​

Once they were given to Jesus He gave them the words which the Father gave to Him. They received those words, and now believed that the Father sent Jesus.

John 17:9-10​

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. (NKJV)​

​

Jesus is praying for them because they are in the world. He is going to send them into the world (see below). He is interceding for them for this task, not to abandon the world, but to send those who had been chosen to go into the world for their work.

John 17:11-12​

11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NKJV)​

Jesus returns to the Father, but the disciples are still in the world. He asks them to keep them. None were lost during the time of Jesus incarnation, other than Judas.

John 17:15-18​

15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. (NKJV)​

​

They are not of the world, Jesus is not of the world, Just as Jesus was sent by the Father into the world, He is sending them into the world.

John 17:20-21​

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (NKJV)​

​

Jesus is not abandoning the world. Others will believe through the word of the disciples who He sent into the world. And through these even more will believe that the Father sent Jesus. All will be one, that the world may believe that the Father sent Jesus.

So earlier in John 6 we see

John 6:44-45​

4 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (NKJV)​

The Father drew those who had heard and learned from the father to Jesus, since Jesus had entered the world.

The will all be taught by God--the disciples were directly taught by God. And Jesus notes that they were not lost--other than the one doomed to destruction. They will be raised up on the last day. But they will also go into the world to teach what they were taught by Jesus.

John 13:1​

1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. (NKJV)​

​

This is referring to the disciples, who were drawn by the Father to Jesus, who He loved, and now was sending into the world.

John 13:14-17​

14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. (NKJV)​

​

He gives them an example of love that they are to imitate.

John 13:33-35​

33 Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come,’ so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (NKJV)​

​

Jesus is leaving the world, but they are not, and if they love one another, as He loved them (the example of His washing their feet illustrated this), the world will know they are His disciples.

None of this illustrates the abandoning of the world.

 

[tall73]

The Holy Spirit is at work I believe even before regeneration.

Yes, and they need to better define what they mean by regeneration.

The Spirit can also work through the preaching of the gospel itself, since it is the power of God unto salvation.

 

[tall73]

The point is man has no control when and how he's regenerated it's a mysterious work of God

You haven't defined what regeneration is here.

In the case of Cornelius it is not the same as being saved, or receiving the Holy Spirit, because He was already seeking God prior to the fulfillment of those in the text.

In the case of Nicodemus regeneration is not being born again, because he sought Jesus out, and Jesus said he was among those who had to be born again.

 

[tall73]

Just read the Bible without trying to make it fit some theology . Its much better.

Approach the Word prayerfully with humility and let the Holy Spirit teach you. Word and Spirit. Make use of commentaries if you like.

That is what's wrong with much theology, its separated from true spirituality.

Yes, everything is not systematic theology.

 

[tall73]

I think it fits fine with the fact that man by nature doesnt seek God Rom 3:11

I think since you refuse to discuss context, etc. you won't convince many. You seem fine with that. But in the meantime we will go on discussing the context you are ignoring, so that folks can see it.