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Limited atonement !

Brightfame52

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Granted, but the term you use "sub-conscious" is open to misunderstanding. Better to say "at the roots of consciousness"
Apples for oranges, the point is, it occurs in the mind and hear at Gods will, we know nothing about a precise time it occurred, but the effects will be to start hearing and understanding spiritual truth
 
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dms1972

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What I don't accept is not so much the Total Depravity doctrine (and I understand it to mean our nature is affected by sin in all aspects, not that we are as bad as is possible to be) but the failure by some of the Reformed to realise there are also deprivations we are affected by in a fallen world, and to ignore this as some do leads to defective pastoral theology and care.
 
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dms1972

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Apples for oranges, the point is, it occurs in the mind and hear at Gods will, we know nothing about a precise time it occurred, but the effects will be to start hearing and understanding spiritual truth
"Apples for oranges" - what is that supposed to mean?

To be fair it was you who started the thread - and you have drawn a lot of opposition to your views, and you are still here 33 pages on arguing. What is the point? You thought you would win everyone to your standpoint?

Strict calvinism and strict arminianism are both theological aberrations and cannot be supported from Scripture. John Wesley was effective IMO because he wasn't a strict Arminian. CH Spurgeon was effective because he wasn't a strict Calvinist, as one can see from some of his sermons.
 
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Brightfame52

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"Apples for oranges" - what is that supposed to mean?

To be fair it was you who started the thread - and you have drawn a lot of opposition to your views, and you are still here 33 pages on arguing. What is the point? You thought you would win everyone to your standpoint?

Strict calvinism and strict arminianism are both theological aberrations and cannot be supported from Scripture. John Wesley was effective IMO because he wasn't a strict Arminian. CH Spurgeon was effective because he wasn't a strict Calvinist, as one can see from some of his sermons.
It meant what I stated
 
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dms1972

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Just read the Bible without trying to make it fit some theology . Its much better.

Approach the Word prayerfully with humility and let the Holy Spirit teach you. Word and Spirit. Make use of commentaries if you like.

That is what's wrong with much theology, its separated from true spirituality.
 
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tall73

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Man by nature does not seek God Romans 3:11

What do you think the point of Romans 1:18-3:20 is? That may help clarify a few things for me about your view. This quote is from the culmination of that section.

My view is that he is demonstrating how the whole world is guilty of sin, and cannot be saved by the law. They had evidence of God through creation, conscience, etc., and in the case of those who received the law, direct revelation. But they nonetheless turned away, sinned, did not seek after God, etc.

Romans 3:9-20​
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:​
“There is none righteous, no, not one;​
11 There is none who understands;​
There is none who seeks after God.​
12 They have all turned aside;​
They have together become unprofitable;​
There is none who does good, no, not one.”​
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;​
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;​
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;​
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”​
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;​
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;​
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”​
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (NKJV)

However, verse 21 introduces the gospel, righteousness apart from law, though witnessed by the law and prophets, which is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

It is the solution to the sin problem outlined in Romans 1:18-3:20.

Romans 3:21-26​
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (NKJV)​

Man cannot be saved by the law because all sin, all turn away, etc. But through the propitiation of Jesus there is now a new righteousness.

Paul indicates that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, right before launching into this section in Romans 1:13-17:

Romans 1:13-17​
13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles. 14 I am a debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to unwise. 15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” (NKJV)​
The gospel has power unto salvation. When Nicodemus heard Jesus, and saw the works, etc. He did come to Jesus to know more. But Jesus said he needed to be born again.

So whatever you call that grace working in him through the words of Jesus, it came before being born again, and was sufficient to draw him.
 
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tall73

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If he saught God he was born again

Another example. Cornelius is described in this way:
Acts 10:1-2​
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. (NKJV)​

But he was not yet saved, and had not yet had the Holy Spirit come upon him. And we know this from the text:

Acts 11:13-17​
13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” (NKJV)​
God had already been working in Cornelius, prior to his being saved, and prior to him receiving the Holy Spirit.

So are you distinguishing between regeneration and salvation/receiving the Holy Spirit?
 
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tall73

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Another example, the crowd at Pentecost was cut to the heart--but had not yet repented or received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:36-39​
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”​
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”​
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (NKJV)​
So is regeneration separate from repentance, or receiving the Holy Spirit?
 
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David Lamb

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Another example, the crowd at Pentecost was cut to the heart--but had not yet repented or received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:36-39​
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”​
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”​
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (NKJV)​
So is regeneration separate from repentance, or receiving the Holy Spirit?
I don't think that can be so because we are told that one cannot even be a Christian without the Holy Spirit:

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Ro 8:9 NKJV)
 
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tall73

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I don't think that can be so because we are told that one cannot even be a Christian without the Holy Spirit:

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Ro 8:9 NKJV)
I am pointing out the order.

They respond to the preaching of the gospel. They are cut to the heart. Peter then calls on them to

  • repent
  • be baptized
  • and you shall receive the Holy Spirit
They were able to respond to the gospel, though they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. The gospel is the solution to the problem. God enables us to receive it.

Romans 8 is the continuation of 7, and is talking about how the Spirit did what the law could not, in that it was weakened by the flesh. You cannot live out a life pleasing to God without walking in the Spirit. The flesh does not submit to the law of God.
 
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Brightfame52

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What do you think the point of Romans 1:18-3:20 is? That may help clarify a few things for me about your view. This quote is from the culmination of that section.
I think it fits fine with the fact that man by nature doesnt seek God Rom 3:11
 
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dms1972

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No these things are separated out in some theologies, but in the economy of salvation they are not so compartmentalised.

Yes in some sense the Atonement is limited, but thats finally down in my view, to unconfessed and unrepented unbelief. In another sense its not limited. This is not a contradiction, if I'd said it was limited and unlimited in the same sense it would be a contradiction. Any mercy experienced in this life whether by an atheist, or someone of another religion has its source I believe in Christ's Atonement. Thats my view anyway. Christ healed ten lepers, only one came back to give thanks.
 
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