Take a stand on political violence

[Landon Caeli]

People are really good at justifying to themselves that they were attacked first and are only defending themselves. Some even fabricate an attack to justify themselves to the world at large.

People lie all the time to get their way. That's why we have a court system. But in reality, one really does have to cross a line first. And that line should always be at the point of the initial (first) act of violence. There's no reason to question this.

 

[rambot]

I have a feeling that, VERY loosely paraphrased version of political culture in the US looks a bit like:

Right doesn't agree with something about the left [and vice versa]
Left folks get ornary and feel "judged". they Snap back.
[this goes back and forth a bunch, escalating]
people on the right kill/mistreat people on the left
people on the left go ape ****; protest, break stuff and get violent.
people on the right say see how violent the left is.
people on the left say see how violent the right is.


It doesn't make America better when the leadership completely absolves and/or IGNORES the violence done by its supporters.

But free speech means it's gonna keep happenning. Until they take away free speech.

 

[rambot]

Telling stories again? Nobody believes that.

I'm not asking people to believe data.
Only 82% of Americans FIRMLY believe in a sphereoid earth.
There is a segment of the population where data means nothing.

But more importantly, this sentiment that you're arguing for, goes against the spirit of the OP.

which is....

 

[rambot]

I remember all those classy posts joking when Paul Pelosi was attacked with a hammer.
Yes, the left truly is awful.

That said, I don't remember hearing about the molotov cocktail throw and the pro-Israelis (likely was banned at the time and also busy at that time fo year). That is really awful.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I remember all those classy posts joking when Paul Pelosi was attacked with a hammer.

I don't recall jokes about that as much as I recall the right-wing conspiracy theories about how it was supposedly a gay lover who was in the house, and after a "quarrel turned violent, he called the police and said it was an intruder as a cover story"...

 

[rambot]

I don't recall jokes about that as much as I recall the right-wing conspiracy theories about how it was supposedly a gay lover who was in the house, and after a "quarrel turned violent, he called the police and said it was an intruder as a cover story"...

I remember that one too.

 

[mindlight]

Timeline of America's political violence dating back to 2011​

From here: MSN

If you think that ALL political violence is wrong, whichever side of the political fence you are, then just say so. Don't pick and choose. Don't comment on individual examples. Don't rate them or excuse them. Don't blame any one person or group. Just say that it's wrong. Please let's all get on the same page.

Jan. 8, 2011-- 6 killed, 13 others including then-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords wounded in Tucson shooting​

Six people were killed and 13 others wounded, including then-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, during a constituent meeting outside a grocery store in Tucson, Arizona. Giffords, a Democrat, was shot in the head at point-blank range, critically injuring her, before the shooter unleashed a spray of bullets. Giffords survived the shooting.

June 14, 2017 -- Rep. Steve Scalise shot during congressional baseball game practice​

Four people were shot -- including then-House majority whip and Louisiana Republican Rep. Steve Scalise -- when a gunman opened fire on Republicans practicing for a congressional baseball game at Eugene Simpson Stadium Park in Alexandria, Virginia.

Oct. 8, 2020 -- 13 men arrested for plotting to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer​

Thirteen members of a militia group were arrested and charged for planning to storm the Michigan statehouse, kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer and start a civil war.

Jan. 6, 2021 -- January 6 attack on the US Capitol, pipe bombs at RNC and DNC​

A mob of pro-Trump protestors stormed the U.S. Capitol as lawmakers met to ratify the results of the 2020 election on Jan. 6, 2021.

Feb. 14, 2022 -- Kentucky mayoral candidate targeted in attempted shooting​

While running for office, Louisville Mayor Craig Greenberg was the target of an attempted shooting at his campaign headquarters. No one was injured in the incident.

Oct. 28, 2022 -- Paul Pelosi attacked with hammer in his home​

Former Democratic Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi's husband, Paul Pelosi, was attacked with a hammer in their San Francisco home. David DePape was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole in a state trial over the attack. He had broken into the Pelosi home seeking to hold the then-speaker hostage.

Dec. 4, 2023 to Jan. 3, 2024 -- New Mexico state legislature candidate orchestrates shootings, murder for hire​

A New Mexico man who ran for the state legislature as a Republican and lost his bid is serving an 80 year prison sentence for allegedly orchestrating attacks at the homes of four Democratic lawmakers. No one was injured in his attempts.

June 13, 2024 -- 1st attempted assassination of Donald Trump​

Then-Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump was shot in the ear during a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, after a gunman opened fire from the roof of a nearby building.

Sept. 15, 2024 -- 2nd attempted assassination of Donald Trump​

Trump faced a second assassination attempt at the Trump International Gold Club in West Palm Beach, Florida. Prosecutors said suspect Ryan Wesley Routh allegedly put together a plan, including purchasing a military-grade weapon, researching Trump's movements and using a dozen burner phones in an alleged attempt to kill Trump based on political grievances.

Oct. 6, 2024 -- Kamala Harris campaign office in Arizona shot at 3 times in a month​

An office shared by then-Vice President Kamala Harris' presidential campaign and the Democratic Party in Tempe, Arizona, was damaged by gunfire three times in less than a month, according to police.

Dec. 4, 2024 -- Murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson​

UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson died after being shot multiple times at point-blank range by a gunman outside a Manhattan hotel, according to police. The shooter appeared to have been lying in wait at the hotel where he shot Thompson, authorities said.

April 13, 2025 -- Arson at Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro's residence​

A mechanic who has expressed disdain for Democrats on social media was arrested for starting a fire at Democratic Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro's residence.

May 21, 2025 -- Killing of two Israeli embassy staffers in Washington, D.C.​

Two Israeli embassy staffers were shot and killed while exiting an event at the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C.

June 1, 2025 -- 13 people injured in Colorado firebombing attack, 1 later dies​

A man threw Molotov cocktails during a pro-Israel demonstration in Boulder, Colorado, injuring 13, authorities said. One person later died of their injuries.

June 14, 2025
-- Minnesota lawmaker shootings​

A masked gunman disguised as a police officer shot and killed Minnesota state Rep. Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark in their home, Gov. Tim Walz said.

Aug. 8, 2025 -- Shooting at CDC headquarters​

A police officer was killed when a gunman opened fire near the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) headquarters and the Emory University campus in Atlanta, authorities said. Suspect Patrick Joseph White had blamed the COVID-19 vaccine for making him sick and depressed, according to law enforcement. He had increasingly focused on the vaccine as a source of his grievances, they noted. He was found dead after the shooting, officials said.

Sept. 10, 2025 -- Shooting of Charlie Kirk​

Charlie Kirk, the founder of the conservative youth activist organization Turning Point USA, was fatally shot during an event at Utah Valley University on Wednesday. President Donald Trump confirmed Kirk’s death on social media.

Missing the point.

Political violence is a part of the process in a country that has not given its state a monopoly of force. You can mourn how ineffective political debates with guns rather than words have been in convincing hearts and minds of cause A over Cause B, but until you change your constitution, this is just the way you do politics. Being British, I know for a fact that America was founded on this principle of words, if possible, guns if necessary.

The problem is not the guns nor the violence, but rather the steady erosion of the Christian culture that used to underpin the discussion. The partisan unreasonableness of both sides in American tribal warfare today is a case in point. You have lost your common ground.

Charlie Kirk was a ray of sunshine in a partisan culture because he made the effort to talk to people across the great divide. He was murdered for that.

 

[rambot]

The problem is not the guns nor the violence, but rather the steady erosion of the Christian culture that used to underpin the discussion. The partisan unreasonableness of both sides in American tribal warfare today is a case in point. You have lost your common ground.

That Christian culture empowered, praised and exacerbated the following:

[I opted NOT to show a picture of lynchings but] Lynchings

To say nothing of the political "interventions" in south America.


And ALLOWED:

To happen again and again and again and again and again and again.


Personally I would argue the left (and I use this phrasing with a heavy dose of imprescision for BOTH groups), 'Drifted" away from christianity in the 60ish while the Republicans started to do so in the 70s and 80s under Reagan.

To be clear, I don't mean ALL of the left or ALL of the right....

 

[mindlight]

That Christian culture empowered, praised and exacerbated the following:

View attachment 370186



View attachment 370184

[I opted NOT to show a picture of lynchings but] Lynchings

To say nothing of the political "interventions" in south America.


And ALLOWED:
View attachment 370187
To happen again and again and again and again and again and again.


Personally I would argue the left (and I use this phrasing with a heavy dose of imprescision for BOTH groups), 'Drifted" away from christianity in the 60ish while the Republicans started to do so in the 70s and 80s under Reagan.

To be clear, I don't mean ALL of the left or ALL of the right....

There have always been bad sheep. Whether they can be blamed on the church or indeed various phases of in-between-revival times in the USA church history is a matter of discussion. The culture on both the left and the right has degenerated with a loss of faith. But I understand that younger people are coming back into the church now, so there is yet hope for your country. Men are leading the way back and prefer traditional churches.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The culture on both the left and the right has degenerated with a loss of faith.

Yeah, things were so much better in the 50's when everybody went to church and women and blacks knew their place.

 

[rambot]

There have always been bad sheep.

Uhmm.....The examples I gave were SYSTEMIC....not single people acting in bad faith.

Whether they can be blamed on the church or indeed various phases of in-between-revival times in the USA church history is a matter of discussion.

In some cases they 1000% could be ABSOLUTELY attributed to churches. There were churches who preached for segregation for a while....and while that number lessenned, it was there.

The culture on both the left and the right has degenerated with a loss of faith. But I understand that younger people are coming back into the church now, so there is yet hope for your country. Men are leading the way back and prefer traditional churches.

It's REALLY weird to me how start the difference is in Gen Z.
When you compare political affiliations....men turning Republican, women Democrat.

I know, I know, it's Wikipedia, but it's sourced like a BOSS (from the "Political views of Gen Z")

Meanwhile, Gen Z men shifted further to Republican candidates like Trump.[53][54][55][56] Explanations for Trump's gains with young men include the economy, appealing to them through podcasters like Joe Rogan, "speaking to" their mental health struggles, less outreach from liberals, and men feeling "left behind" amid progress for women.[57][58][59]

1) If it was the economy, I'm not sure they are as impressed.
2) I agree that folks like Rogan and Kirk are having a pretty profound influence.
3) Less outreach from liberals? I do agree with that.
4) I don't buy the feeling "left behind" amid progress from women.
Women have been advancing to CATCH UP with men socially in terms of their progress. So I take that statement, actually, to be more like "they don't like that women are catching up to them". And it doesn't help that the rich people and influencers, try to exploit those feelings and exacerbate them through some nastiness.
Taking away certain rights from women while not reciprocating for men is going to make some women angry.


As a teacher, I have also been a bit concerned about what's happenning to boys and young men in our culture for sure. While some people worry about the "effiminazation" of men (or however it's spelled), I would argue that most men could afford to be FAR more intouch with their emotion and could learn to handle them better. Mental health and loneliness are REAL in today's world and to label men as "effeminate" because they acknowledge their feelings (and in doing so IMPLY that there ia problem with being at ALL feminine), is a bit mysogenistic and unhelpful to men suffering.

 

[RileyG]

Timeline of America's political violence dating back to 2011​

From here: MSN

If you think that ALL political violence is wrong, whichever side of the political fence you are, then just say so. Don't pick and choose. Don't comment on individual examples. Don't rate them or excuse them. Don't blame any one person or group. Just say that it's wrong. Please let's all get on the same page.

Jan. 8, 2011-- 6 killed, 13 others including then-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords wounded in Tucson shooting​

Six people were killed and 13 others wounded, including then-Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, during a constituent meeting outside a grocery store in Tucson, Arizona. Giffords, a Democrat, was shot in the head at point-blank range, critically injuring her, before the shooter unleashed a spray of bullets. Giffords survived the shooting.

June 14, 2017 -- Rep. Steve Scalise shot during congressional baseball game practice​

Four people were shot -- including then-House majority whip and Louisiana Republican Rep. Steve Scalise -- when a gunman opened fire on Republicans practicing for a congressional baseball game at Eugene Simpson Stadium Park in Alexandria, Virginia.

Oct. 8, 2020 -- 13 men arrested for plotting to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer​

Thirteen members of a militia group were arrested and charged for planning to storm the Michigan statehouse, kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer and start a civil war.

Jan. 6, 2021 -- January 6 attack on the US Capitol, pipe bombs at RNC and DNC​

A mob of pro-Trump protestors stormed the U.S. Capitol as lawmakers met to ratify the results of the 2020 election on Jan. 6, 2021.

Feb. 14, 2022 -- Kentucky mayoral candidate targeted in attempted shooting​

While running for office, Louisville Mayor Craig Greenberg was the target of an attempted shooting at his campaign headquarters. No one was injured in the incident.

Oct. 28, 2022 -- Paul Pelosi attacked with hammer in his home​

Former Democratic Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi's husband, Paul Pelosi, was attacked with a hammer in their San Francisco home. David DePape was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole in a state trial over the attack. He had broken into the Pelosi home seeking to hold the then-speaker hostage.

Dec. 4, 2023 to Jan. 3, 2024 -- New Mexico state legislature candidate orchestrates shootings, murder for hire​

A New Mexico man who ran for the state legislature as a Republican and lost his bid is serving an 80 year prison sentence for allegedly orchestrating attacks at the homes of four Democratic lawmakers. No one was injured in his attempts.

June 13, 2024 -- 1st attempted assassination of Donald Trump​

Then-Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump was shot in the ear during a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, after a gunman opened fire from the roof of a nearby building.

Sept. 15, 2024 -- 2nd attempted assassination of Donald Trump​

Trump faced a second assassination attempt at the Trump International Gold Club in West Palm Beach, Florida. Prosecutors said suspect Ryan Wesley Routh allegedly put together a plan, including purchasing a military-grade weapon, researching Trump's movements and using a dozen burner phones in an alleged attempt to kill Trump based on political grievances.

Oct. 6, 2024 -- Kamala Harris campaign office in Arizona shot at 3 times in a month​

An office shared by then-Vice President Kamala Harris' presidential campaign and the Democratic Party in Tempe, Arizona, was damaged by gunfire three times in less than a month, according to police.

Dec. 4, 2024 -- Murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson​

UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson died after being shot multiple times at point-blank range by a gunman outside a Manhattan hotel, according to police. The shooter appeared to have been lying in wait at the hotel where he shot Thompson, authorities said.

April 13, 2025 -- Arson at Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro's residence​

A mechanic who has expressed disdain for Democrats on social media was arrested for starting a fire at Democratic Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro's residence.

May 21, 2025 -- Killing of two Israeli embassy staffers in Washington, D.C.​

Two Israeli embassy staffers were shot and killed while exiting an event at the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C.

June 1, 2025 -- 13 people injured in Colorado firebombing attack, 1 later dies​

A man threw Molotov cocktails during a pro-Israel demonstration in Boulder, Colorado, injuring 13, authorities said. One person later died of their injuries.

June 14, 2025
-- Minnesota lawmaker shootings​

A masked gunman disguised as a police officer shot and killed Minnesota state Rep. Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark in their home, Gov. Tim Walz said.

Aug. 8, 2025 -- Shooting at CDC headquarters​

A police officer was killed when a gunman opened fire near the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) headquarters and the Emory University campus in Atlanta, authorities said. Suspect Patrick Joseph White had blamed the COVID-19 vaccine for making him sick and depressed, according to law enforcement. He had increasingly focused on the vaccine as a source of his grievances, they noted. He was found dead after the shooting, officials said.

Sept. 10, 2025 -- Shooting of Charlie Kirk​

Charlie Kirk, the founder of the conservative youth activist organization Turning Point USA, was fatally shot during an event at Utah Valley University on Wednesday. President Donald Trump confirmed Kirk’s death on social media.

I’m tired of it all. When will it ever end? Can’t everyone love each other and get along?

 

[RileyG]

Yeah, things were so much better in the 50's when everybody went to church and women and blacks knew their place.

What’s wrong with going to Church or the nuclear family? Of course, we have evolved much as a society and minorities are treated better, which is incredibly positive.

 

[RileyG]

Yes, I agree. All political violence is to be condemned.

Amen brother!

 

[rjs330]

What’s wrong with going to Church or the nuclear family? Of course, we have evolved much as a society and minorities are treated better, which is incredibly positive.

And much of the fact that they are is due to religious people. You can't forget that Christians were also opposed to slavery and Jim Crow. Even in the south. Was it big in the south, no, but there were those that fought against it.

Religion: Christianity v. Jim Crow

In other places Christians supported civil rights and the ending of Jim Crow.

 

[RileyG]

And much of the fact that they are is due to religious people. You can't forget that Christians were also opposed to slavery and Jim Crow. Even in the south. Was it big in the south, no, but there were those that fought against it.

Religion: Christianity v. Jim Crow

In other places Christians supported civil rights and the ending of Jim Crow.

Thanks for the link and info!

 

[rambot]

And much of the fact that they are is due to religious people. You can't forget that Christians were also opposed to slavery and Jim Crow. Even in the south. Was it big in the south, no, but there were those that fought against it.

For sure I recognize it. Christians are NOT an absolute monolith.

But those Christians who WERE racist, they got into positions of power....and they had babies...and they taught their children their ways. And then those children got into positions of power. And to suggest that minorities are not affected by those people, I would say is misguided...and it's why it's important to listen to their stories and not dimiss them.

Religion: Christianity v. Jim Crow
In other places Christians supported civil rights and the ending of Jim Crow.

ABSOL:UTELY! Especially outside of the south. I 100% agree.

 

[RileyG]

For sure I recognize it. Christians are NOT an absolute monolith.

But those Christians who WERE racist, they got into positions of power....and they had babies...and they taught their children their ways. And then those children got into positions of power. And to suggest that minorities are not affected by those people, I would say is misguided...and it's why it's important to listen to their stories and not dimiss them.


ABSOL:UTELY! Especially outside of the south. I 100% agree.

...which is why people need to unlearn prejudice tendencies. It's completely possible.

I'm just rambling now...

 

[Bradskii]

The problem is not the guns nor the violence, but rather the steady erosion of the Christian culture that used to underpin the discussion.

Eroded to the point where the US has more Christians than any other country. I've never driven around a country with so many churches. I've never known a country where almost all the politicians are Christian. If you are telling me that Christianity is the solution then the evidence is there for all to see that you are very wrong indeed.

Charlie Kirk was a ray of sunshine in a partisan culture because he made the effort to talk to people across the great divide.

I could show you literally dozens of examples where he talked down to people. He created division. He intentionally widened that divide.

 

[iluvatar5150]

What’s wrong with going to Church or the nuclear family? Of course, we have evolved much as a society and minorities are treated better, which is incredibly positive.

What’s wrong with it? I think you missed my point.

And much of the fact that they are is due to religious people. You can't forget that Christians were also opposed to slavery and Jim Crow. Even in the south. Was it big in the south, no, but there were those that fought against it.

Religion: Christianity v. Jim Crow

In other places Christians supported civil rights and the ending of Jim Crow.

And some fought vociferously against it. The whole reason we have “southern” baptists is because the northern baptists opposed slavery. The methodists had a similar schism. A century later, churches in the south set up “segregation academies” to facilitate the continued segregation of schools. Jerry Falwell famously opposed the effort to deny these schools tax exempt status. Bob Jones didn’t officially stop banning interracial dating until the late 90’s or 2000’s.