THE GREAT CONTROVERSY in Baltimore, Maryland

[ViaCrucis]

This evening National Public Radio carried a lengthy news item about Baltimore having been inundated with hundreds of thousands of copies of a book titled "THE GREAT CONTROVERSY". It seems that the book was mailed to every address in Baltimore.

As many of us here at CF know, "THE GREAT CONTROVERSY" was authored by Ellen White, the prophetess, and chief founder of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. This thread is primarily directed toward members of that denomination. I have a number of questions as follow:

1. Why? Why deluge a large city with your denomination's key text, if in actual fact, you really believe that the Bible alone is the basis of all of your beliefs, as many of our SDA friends here at CF assert.
2. Why Baltimore (and Philadelphia, I understand)? Why not Denver or San Diego or Moscow or Nairobi?
3. Why go to the very significant expense when, in fact, there are many more less expensive and probably more cost-effective methods of member recruitment?

The people of Baltimore will have a preponderance of tissue paper now.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

Considering you said you never read the GC not sure how you came to that conclusion. I disagree she points back to the Scriptures and what she teaches is from the Bible.

I understand you don’t like the Adventist church, nothing will change your mind. That’s okay we can agree to disagree.

We have been drifting here and I apologize for being part of the drift. Perhaps you can share with us your understanding as to why the SDA went to the extreme action of mailing copies of THE GREAT CONTROVERSY to every postal address in Baltimore. What was the primary purpose?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The people of Baltimore will have a preponderance of tissue paper now.

-CryptoLutheran

Very true. According to the NPR program many of the folks in Baltimore have been depositing their copies of THE GREAT CONTROVERSY in their recycling bins. Paper of all sorts which is recycled is frequently converted into the lovely toilet tissue we use.

 

[tall73]

I think in this case these books were sent by Remnant Publications, which is an independent ministry. They have done such projects for some time in major cities.

Partner With Us to Spread the Gospel!

Remnant is a ministry that specializes in Christian books, Bibles, and resources that help a person walk with God.

remnantpublications.com

There have also been General Conference campaigns over the years. You can read some of these articles for more information.

The Great Controversy Project: An interview with Delbert W. Baker

By distributing The Great Controversy, we say to the world, “Here’s a simple message that we want you to read, and it’s one of the best you’ll find anywhere!”

www.ministrymagazine.org

“The Great Controversy” Project – North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists

www.nadadventist.org

8 Million Trees - Adventist Review

Is The Great Controversy project still worth it?

adventistreview.org

The Great Controversy 2.0 Project Reaches Prisons in Taiwan

The official news channel of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

adventist.news

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think in this case these books were sent by Remnant Publications, which is an independent ministry. They have done such projects for some time in major cities.

Partner With Us to Spread the Gospel!

Remnant is a ministry that specializes in Christian books, Bibles, and resources that help a person walk with God.

remnantpublications.com

There have also been General Conference campaigns over the years. You can read some of these articles for more information.

The Great Controversy Project: An interview with Delbert W. Baker

By distributing The Great Controversy, we say to the world, “Here’s a simple message that we want you to read, and it’s one of the best you’ll find anywhere!”

www.ministrymagazine.org

“The Great Controversy” Project – North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists

www.nadadventist.org

8 Million Trees - Adventist Review

Is The Great Controversy project still worth it?

adventistreview.org

The Great Controversy 2.0 Project Reaches Prisons in Taiwan

The official news channel of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

adventist.news

Thank you. It seems that the purpose, when the dust all settles, is member recruitment, pure and simple. The SDA has unlimited faith in the power and efficacy of THE GREAT CONTROVERSY and apparently not the Bible.

In the first article there was the peculiar sentence, "She (Ellen White) had to have prophetic insight." Do you know why she needed to have prophetic insight?

In the third article is the really odd boast, "Third, the project will impact the planet when more than 8 million trees are felled to create the paper for the books." In light of the ecological havoc going on in places like the Amazonian rain forest which is steadily disappearing, I would not be boasting about the impact on the planet "when more than 8 million trees are felled to create the paper for the books."

In any event, this effort seems to be similar to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic as it was sinking. The SDA membership statistics worldwide are certainly no cause for rejoicing.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I would be more concerned if everyone accepted her or the SDA church. While many do not think her messages came from God. Most of the messengers and prophets of God sent in Scripture when the majority of professed believers went away from Him, didn’t think so either. Most of the professed believers of God in Scripture didn’t believe Jesus so much they even crucified God’s only Son and killed His disciples.

2 Chr 36:15 And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

We try to bring people back to God’s Word - which is the message of EGW. We believe in all of the Ten Commandments, not the edited version of man, as if man can edit the Testimony of God. Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 what sits under God’s mercy seat Exo 25:21, that is in His Most Holy of His Temple Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 that He personally wrote. As if there is anyone greater than He.

Only God knows who is His or not Eze 20:20 , most people got it wrong in Scripture Jesus said that is going to happen again. Mat 7:21-23 If we were warmly accepted by the majority, I would be worried. Mat 10:22 Rev 12:17

 

[tall73]

Thank you. It seems that the purpose, when the dust all settles, is member recruitment, pure and simple. The SDA has unlimited faith in the power and efficacy of THE GREAT CONTROVERSY and apparently not the Bible.

In the first article there was the peculiar sentence, "She (Ellen White) had to have prophetic insight." Do you know why she needed to have prophetic insight?

In the third article is the really odd boast, "Third, the project will impact the planet when more than 8 million trees are

In any event, this effort seems to be similar to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic as it was sinking. The SDA membership statistics worldwide are certainly no cause for rejoicing.

The growth rate is positive: https://www.adventistarchives.org/church-membership

 

[bbbbbbb]

I would be more concerned if everyone accepted her or the SDA church. While many do not think her messages came from God. Most of the messengers and prophets of God sent in Scripture when the majority of professed believers went away from Him, didn’t think so either. Most of the professed believers of God in Scripture didn’t believe Jesus so much they even crucified God’s only Son and killed His disciples.

2 Chr 36:15 And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

We try to bring people back to God’s Word - which is the message of EGW. We believe in all of the Ten Commandments, not the edited version of man, as if man can edit the Testimony of God. Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 what sits under God’s mercy seat Exo 25:21, that is in His Most Holy of His Temple Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 that He personally wrote. As if there is anyone greater than He.

Only God knows who is His or not Eze 20:20 , most people got it wrong in Scripture Jesus said that is going to happen again. Mat 7:21-23 If we were warmly accepted by the majority, I would be worried. Mat 10:22 Rev 12:17

Why would you be more concerned if everyone accepted her or the SDA church? I would think that would be a cause for great rejoicing. Isn't that the ultimate goal of destroying eight million trees to produce THE GREAT CONTROVERSY?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The growth rate is positive: https://www.adventistarchives.org/church-membership

That, of course, is according to denominational statistics which are routinely tweaked on the positive side by many denominations, including your own. The following is from adventisttoday.org -

"In 2023, the Seventh-day Adventist Church reported a world membership of 22,785,195, compared to the 2022 membership of 22,234,406, a net gain of 550,789 members.

"Yet the number leaving is staggering. While 1,835,788 new members joined the church in 2023, 1,284,999 were taken off the books. This number appears to include deaths, apostasy, disfellowship, dropped for loss of contact, and requests to drop membership.

"For every ten who joined across the world church, seven others ceased to be members.

"However, the GC also reports 503,423 loss in the “adjustment” column, which is usually reserved for clerical errors. Since half-a-million in clerical errors seems unlikely, it probably is being used to record losses. If we add that additional amount to the losses, the total deficit is 1,788,422—an astonishing 97% of the total accessions during that period!

"That would argue we’re losing as many as we’re gaining!"

 

[bbbbbbb]

It would, be but sadly, the majority never got it right before and the Bible says the majority will not get it right in the last days which I believe we are in.

So, if I understand you correctly, you really would not expect, nor be pleased, if everyone in the world joined the SDA church. Is that accurate?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So, if I understand you correctly, you really would not expect, nor be pleased, if everyone in the world joined the SDA church. Is that accurate?

Please do not put words in my mouth, I said I would be rejoiced, but the Bible tells me what is going to happen in the last days and the state of people, I believe what the Bible says.

I am going to bow out of this thread because the real point you were hoping to make, not receive the answers to your question, which you received, but to produce another thread against the SDA church. It’s not a fruitful discussion, so I am going to leave it as agree to disagree, but wish you well.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Please do not put words in my mouth, I said I would be rejoiced, but the Bible tells me what is going to happen in the last days and the state of people, I believe what the Bible says.

I am going to bow out of this thread because the real point you were hoping to make, not receive the answers to your question, which you received, but to produce another thread against the SDA church. It’s not a fruitful discussion, so I am going to leave it as agree to disagree, but wish you well.

My, my, my. Speaking of putting words in one's mouth. I merely have been asking questions and have received some excellent answers.

In answer to my OP, the primary purpose of inundating Baltimore with copies of THE GREAT CONTROVERSY is membership recruitment. I have subsequently learned that Baltimore and Philadelphia are just the beginning of an effort which will require the destruction of 8 million trees, which is believed will impact the global ecology.

 

[The Liturgist]

which is believed will impact the global ecology

That’s truly horrific, and the SDA leadership should denounce this group for such environmental irresponsibility.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That’s truly horrific, and the SDA leadership should denounce this group for such environmental irresponsibility.

I agree completely. I was quite shocked when I discovered that statement.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why would you be more concerned if everyone accepted her or the SDA church? I would think that would be a cause for great rejoicing. Isn't that the ultimate goal of destroying eight million trees to produce THE GREAT CONTROVERSY?

It was right there in their post. Because rejection is seen as evidence of truth. If everyone believed what SDA's believed, then that would undermine the truth claim--but because people generally reject SDA beliefs and White's alleged prophetic claims, then that underscores that it's true.

Of course, literally EVERYONE can say this. When you attach veracity to popularity (even in the inverse) then you'll always have a fallback. Popularity can mean evidence of God's approval of something; the lack of popularity can mean evidence that since this world is fallen and people are under the delusion of sin and the devil then people won't believe the truth. So it's a win-win in all circumstances.

It's kissing cousins with the persecution complex.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

It was right there in their post. Because rejection is seen as evidence of truth. If everyone believed what SDA's believed, then that would undermine the truth claim--but because people generally reject SDA beliefs and White's alleged prophetic claims, then that underscores that it's true.

Of course, literally EVERYONE can say this. When you attach veracity to popularity (even in the inverse) then you'll always have a fallback. Popularity can mean evidence of God's approval of something; the lack of popularity can mean evidence that since this world is fallen and people are under the delusion of sin and the devil then people won't believe the truth. So it's a win-win in all circumstances.

It's kissing cousins with the persecution complex.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for the perceptive analysis, which I surmised to be the actual situation. I was hoping that she would actually been able to reach that conclusion with my firm (and hopefully gentle) guidance.

 

[tall73]

That, of course, is according to denominational statistics which are routinely tweaked on the positive side by many denominations, including your own.

Since mine is a fairly loose group of congregationally structured churches, I don't think some of those factors would apply in quite the same way.

The following is from adventisttoday.org -

"In 2023, the Seventh-day Adventist Church reported a world membership of 22,785,195, compared to the 2022 membership of 22,234,406, a net gain of 550,789 members.

"Yet the number leaving is staggering. While 1,835,788 new members joined the church in 2023, 1,284,999 were taken off the books. This number appears to include deaths, apostasy, disfellowship, dropped for loss of contact, and requests to drop membership.

"For every ten who joined across the world church, seven others ceased to be members.

"However, the GC also reports 503,423 loss in the “adjustment” column, which is usually reserved for clerical errors. Since half-a-million in clerical errors seems unlikely, it probably is being used to record losses. If we add that additional amount to the losses, the total deficit is 1,788,422—an astonishing 97% of the total accessions during that period!

"That would argue we’re losing as many as we’re gaining!"

SDA do at times have large drops when various regions clean books. But they spell them out in the long statistical report in most cases. There are a lot of places reporting in, including in areas where there is less tech, far less paid staff, and more persecution.

And I have discussed their losses to various factors before, and they are large. But most denominations are shrinking, unfortunately, even if you include positive spin numbers. Theirs is growing over time.

 

[tall73]

That’s truly horrific, and the SDA leadership should denounce this group for such environmental irresponsibility.

The project involving 8 million trees was a direct effort of the denominational leadership at the time, in an attempt to distribute 1 billion copies of the book.

The Baltimore effort is a separate independent ministry project, on top of the 8 million tree effort.

All of the articles I posted, other than the link to the Remnant Publications website, were official Adventist sources. And the one noting the 8 million trees was an attempt to explain why it was still a good idea to do so, despite the trees.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I

Since mine is a fairly loose group of congregationally structured churches, I don't think some of those factors would apply in quite the same way.




SDA do at times have large drops when various regions clean books. But they spell them out in the long statistical report in most cases. There are a lot of places reporting in, including in areas where there is less tech, far less paid staff, and more persecution.

And I have discussed their losses to various factors before, and they are large. But most denominations are shrinking, unfortunately, even if you include positive spin numbers. Theirs is growing over time.

I do not know, nor particularly care, which denomination you are affiliated with. It appears to me that determining actual church membership is a very difficult problem. For example, the Roman Catholic Church includes all people who have been baptized as Roman Catholics, unless these members request to terminate their memberships or, in extremely rare cases, are excommunicated. Thus, an enormous grain of salt must be used when examining their statistics. Even in very meticulous denominations such as the SDA one ought to examine the parameters used for determining these statistics. Are all people who have been baptized in the SDA members? Is there a certain level of activity the basis for that determination? Let's say, e. g., that Sabbath church attendance is the parameter. If a member is known to have skipped Sabbath church services are they dismissed as members? If a member is living outside of marriage with another person, are they still a member? I have a good friend who is a religious eclectic. She regularly attends services at a variety of churches and has no commitment to any of them. Nevertheless, because of her attendance (which is more regular than many members) some of these churches treat her as if she is a member, although her baptism as an infant was in the Lutheran church. In the local SDA church here there is a man living out of wedlock who, although a member, sits in the foyer of the church during Sabbath meetings. Is he still a member or has he been excommunicated? If he has been excommunicated why would he be allowed to continue to participate in the life of the church?

The bottom line with me is that I do not give much credence to denominational membership statistics.

 

[Amo2]

Then we are in agreement. This explains the relatively minor emphasis in THE GREAT CONTROVERSY on Mr. Miller. The book is not about him, but it is about Mrs. White and her beliefs. Thus, it represents the beliefs of the SDA which cannot be understood through simply reading and studying the Bible alone.

Interesting. I'd be interested to know, according to your above claim, exactly which doctrine of the SDA church you believe originated with Mrs. White. The vast majority of what SDA's believe, was already believed by millions before them throughout history. According to the teachings of holy scripture of course, and also other Protestants in particular, concerning subjects such as the seventh day sabbath, the state of the dead, Sunday sacredness, and biblical prophecy. The Adventists became Seventh Day Adventists via the testimony of a Seventh Day Baptist who introduced this truth to certain Adventists including Ellen White I do believe, who were instrumental in forming the denomination. The book the Great Controversy itself revealing much of this very history. Knowledge of which is much neglected today. Not only because humanities continuing tendency to forget very important lessons of the past which would keep us from making the same mistakes over and over as we do, but also as a matter of intention and design.

If I had the means, I would send a Great Controversy to every home in the nation. It is an excellent source of historical truth in relation to the authentic and verifiable histories of Christian peoples. Which includes prophetic insights we have and continue to see coming to fulfillment in this nation and world. People of course can take it or leave it as they wish. The conviction that people have at least a right to know the truth if they so desire, is what compels many of us to dispense as much truth as possible unto truth's intended end.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

What could be more important to authentic Christianity, than a correct understanding of biblical teaching, and the history of Christ's own in this world? As all will be judged by the truth, as revealed by our Lord and Savior. While many differing claims exist as to just exactly what that truth and history really is. Nevertheless, the holy scriptures warn us -

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Psa 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. 5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.