Christians - May I have your attention for a moment?

[Godcrazy]

ah ok so you are 70% total government control.

no totally not. I mean it is only how the laws and regulations are, we do not have as many private owned companies as Uk for example where everything is private. for example the rail way in uk turned catastrophe, now they are talking of more stability and balance by a part being state controlled. it is on those lines

 

[Godcrazy]

In sweden everything works. we have good bike roads everywhere, we have free right to roam in nature, free almost child care, free hospitals, good public services, good social services and benefit system, good treatment of ill people and help, very little criminality(those we hear of only happened recently) it is partly because we have laws and regulations how to share everything and where it goes. as well the state owned a certain percentage makes it more stable. it is definitely not like we see in so called negative countries.

 

[ralliann]

In sweden everything works. we have good bike roads everywhere, we have free right to roam in nature,

In America we expect these things as human rights

free almost child care, free hospitals, good public services, good social services and benefit system, good treatment of ill people and help, very little criminality

We also here had decent health care in our history. Also criminality was dealt with . Until peole in government decided these things were purposely corroded.

(those we hear of only happened recently) it is partly because we have laws and regulations how to share everything and where it goes.

Government shares the money they have controlled. A distinct entity of people as well. It is good at least for now they choose to do this...

as well the state owned a certain percentage makes it more stable. it is definitely not like we see in so called negative countries.

Until the wealth runs out, then what? All it really is, is an exchange of wealth from one group of people to another.... one group produced and built the wealth, while the other does not produce it.

 

[Godcrazy]

In America we expect these things as human rights

We also here had decent health care in our history. Also criminality was dealt with . Until peole in government decided these things were purposely corroded.

Government shares the money they have controlled. A distinct entity of people as well. It is good at least for now they choose to do this...

Until the wealth runs out, then what? All it really is, is an exchange of wealth from one group of people to another.... one group produced and built the wealth, while the other does not produce it.

Actually, most of it is done through high tax that then is split fairly with a large extent for the social services. We do not have that many rich, everyone pay high tax. together.

 

[ralliann]

Actually, most of it is done through high tax that then is split fairly with a large extent for the social services. We do not have that many rich, everyone pay high tax. together.

Yes I know high taxes ( the peoples money) have to be involved. As for the rich, they don't want to live under that. So naturally they leave and or do not do business there. It is nothing that has not been done before...

 

[Godcrazy]

Yes I know high taxes ( the peoples money) have to be involved. As for the rich, they don't want to live under that. So naturally they leave and or do not do business there. It is nothing that has not been done before...

as long as taxation remains it circulates

 

[ralliann]

as long as taxation remains it circulates

That is not what has happened in the past efforts that failed. But you are not all the way there yet.....

 

[Carl Emerson]

Mmmmm... I just shifted to another house today and looking at the conversation it seems to have taken a direction away from the matter raised in the OP...

Have I provoked fruitful discussion or should we return to the topic ?

 

[com7fy8]

Today, most churches still do fairly well taking care of widows and the poor but as far as welcoming the stranger, some do much better than others.

There can be "political" churches who make a big show of "my country over anyone else" > versus loving all as ourselves; however, there are the Christians with no reputation, doing good with anyone, ready for love with any person.

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

The migrant issue has set this back irreparably.

Our Apostle Paul made himself all things with all people, right? 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. But there were people who loved Paul less and less. But he did not let unloving ones decide what he did >

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved." (2 Corinthians 12:15)

So, no . . . I would say . . . the more in-your-face activist church culture is not going to decide how Jesus has us loving any and all people.

I can see that if Paul made himself all things to all people, this is my example: how I need to learn other languages so I can share with ones who might not now my first language. And . . . speaking about signs >

Which do you think would be more effective? >

I speak with the gift of tongues as a sign to people of another language.

Or, I take the time to learn, developing in caring and sharing relationships with ones while I learn their language.

Of course, one time I was talking with a woman in her county's national language, and she just kept tipping and turning her head; then I spoke something in what seemed like perfectly spoken words that I did not know; and then was when she asked how I spoke her language. Later, her daughter told me she understood only her local dialect. I do not know what I said to her!

But I have seen it with my own eyes, and the moment I went down again and did not care of sins or got lax. Not the same power.

My experience is I can just get into an argument, and already I am losing it. So, I need character in God's love so I stay how I need to be, all the time. And . . . about signs > ones can do signs and wonders but not have the character which we need to make us immune in God's almighty power to keep wrong emotions and thinking and feelings away from us . . . while this character of love has us relating the way God's word says.

So, signs have their humble place, while Jesus' character can have us humble in sharing with Jesus.

 

[Hentenza]

There can be "political" churches who make a big show of "my country over anyone else" > versus loving all as ourselves; however, there are the Christians with no reputation, doing good with anyone, ready for love with any person.

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

“Political churches” what are those? What are Christians with no reputation?

“And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Even the Gentiles, do they not do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭47‬-‭48‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 5:47-48 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Even the Gentiles, do they not do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. | New American Standard Bible - NASB

And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Even the Gentiles, do they not do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

bible.com

When shall we be perfect as God?

 

[bèlla]

I can see that if Paul made himself all things to all people, this is my example: how I need to learn other languages so I can share with ones who might not now my first language. And . . . speaking about signs >

The caveat in your statement is I. If you feel compelled to learn another language to communicate or minister to foreigners that’s wonderful. But that isn’t a mandate for others to do the same. There are many ways the scripture can be applied and we must rely on the Holy Spirit’s counsel to select the appropriate course for ourselves.

Which do you think would be more effective? >

I speak with the gift of tongues as a sign to people of another language.

Or, I take the time to learn, developing in caring and sharing relationships with ones while I learn their language.

I think the most effective response is the one that utilizes your gifts and talents for your kingdom assignment. That is my priority and the lens I see my service on this plane. But others may think differently and that’s okay.

My experience is I can just get into an argument, and already I am losing it. So, I need character in God's love so I stay how I need to be, all the time. And . . . about signs > ones can do signs and wonders but not have the character which we need to make us immune in God's almighty power to keep wrong emotions and thinking and feelings away from us . . . while this character of love has us relating the way God's word says.

So, signs have their humble place, while Jesus' character can have us humble in sharing with Jesus.

In my experience most gifts have a shadow side which is not a reflection of error from the Lord. But the human element rearing its head as you’ve noted in your example. Early in my walk I studied many prominent leaders in the church from the past and present. I paid close attention to the ones who stumbled and looked for common denominators in their errors. It boiled down to five areas of attack the devil used to destroy them.

I saw a correlation in films with military engagements and noted their attacks and told myself that’s you. And the enemy was the army seeking the weak point in my structure. The point he could penetrate for entry. I started praying ardently afterward to build up my armor and the practice took me further than I’d imagine and helped me mature.

I think it’s important to understand your weak points and areas of susceptibility no matter what you’re doing. They’re the likely places where you’re going to stumble and its easy to miss. From my observation, signs and wonders often lends itself to expressions of ego and a need to be heard and followed. That’s what I’ve witnessed thus far and why I’m careful.

~bella

 

[com7fy8]

From my observation, signs and wonders often lends itself to expressions of ego and a need to be heard and followed. That’s what I’ve witnessed thus far and why I’m careful.

Yes, it is possible for me to try to get attention, by using some thing which gets attention.

Money is something that can be used to get approval and power and attention.

The disciples tried to use Jesus to make them great.

So, we need to know how to use signs, if there are any, and how to use money, and how to relate with Jesus so we aren't trying to use Him as our authority and influence to get what we want.

 

[bèlla]

Money is something that can be used to get approval and power and attention.

Money is a tool. It can open and close doors and create opportunities or hardships depending on the person. Power and money aren’t one and the same and the appropriate term for most is influence. Money is influential because most people don’t have enough that’s why they admire it.

The disciples tried to use Jesus to make them great.

I think God determines and we see it in our knitting. We may aspire to be this or that but without His anointing we will never get far.

~bella

 

[timewerx]

Mmmmm... I just shifted to another house today and looking at the conversation it seems to have taken a direction away from the matter raised in the OP...

Have I provoked fruitful discussion or should we return to the topic ?

At the same period of the decline of Christianity in NZ, statistics are also showing a declining trend in crime in NZ across many sectors.

Redditers generally say NZ is safer today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1flrs25

Global trends are more disturbing showing strong correlations between crime and Christianity/religion. Are Christians churches still preaching the teachings of Jesus or have false teachings "Doctrine of Demons" have completely overtaken Christian churches??

Sources:

Radware Page

Loader page.

www.parliament.nz

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10345329.2023.2236730#abstract

New Zealand Homicide rate - data, chart | TheGlobalEconomy.com

New Zealand: Homicides per 100,000 people: The latest value from 2017 is 0.7 homicides per 100,000 people, a decline from 1.1 homicides per 100,000 people in 2016. In comparison, the world average is 7.4 homicides per 100,000 people, based on data from 97 countries. Historically, the average for...

www.theglobaleconomy.com

 

[timewerx]

Yes, it is possible for me to try to get attention, by using some thing which gets attention.

Money is something that can be used to get approval and power and attention.

The disciples tried to use Jesus to make them great.

So, we need to know how to use signs, if there are any, and how to use money, and how to relate with Jesus so we aren't trying to use Him as our authority and influence to get what we want.

The subject of money exposes some damning truths in the Bible. Not one church preaches about it. Either they don't know or refuses to acknowledge it because they still value material things over spiritual things and also value human / worldly approval than the truth. It had to be tangible be be believed.

They made a "tangible" (false) version of Christ that is represented by material things because they can't accept/believe the real Christ.

I'm not saying that Jesus did not come in the flesh because Jesus did come in the flesh. Both the Bible and non-canon scriptures and other writings corroborate that Jesus did exist in the flesh as a real person.

As incredible as this sounds, as the influence of Christianity declines, the world is actually getting closer to the goals of Jesus - evil / corruption getting exposed, declining poverty because the world is getting more involved in dealing with poverty (taking care of the least), mercy and kindness for all (social justice / equality). With the exception of America which seems to pioneer absurd things which only lead to more destruction, chaos, and division.

This is happening because the truth is no longer preached. Christianity may still have the largest membership of all religions in the world but if it preaches false teachings, it only makes things worse and the most "Christian" nations are also going to be in terrible shape.

 

[Carl Emerson]

At the same period of the decline of Christianity in NZ, statistics are also showing a declining trend in crime in NZ across many sectors.

Redditers generally say NZ is safer today:
https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1flrs25

Global trends are more disturbing showing strong correlations between crime and Christianity/religion. Are Christians churches still preaching the teachings of Jesus or have false teachings "Doctrine of Demons" have completely overtaken Christian churches??
View attachment 370563View attachment 370564View attachment 370565

Sources:

Radware Page

Loader page.

www.parliament.nz

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10345329.2023.2236730#abstract

New Zealand Homicide rate - data, chart | TheGlobalEconomy.com

New Zealand: Homicides per 100,000 people: The latest value from 2017 is 0.7 homicides per 100,000 people, a decline from 1.1 homicides per 100,000 people in 2016. In comparison, the world average is 7.4 homicides per 100,000 people, based on data from 97 countries. Historically, the average for...

www.theglobaleconomy.com

Yes - During my studies under the late Dr. Koyama, he mentioned the strong co-relation between Religion in general and Corruption.

 

[timewerx]

Yes - During my studies under the late Dr. Koyama, he mentioned the strong co-relation between Religion in general and Corruption.

I think Christians treat evil more of a character-building "asset" and "God's Will" than a problem that needs to be fixed.

Yet Jesus also taught we must expose the works of evil and resist the devil. "The devil" isn't just the spiritual entity we know but can also be people who are evil. If you translate the Greek passage word-per-word, It strongly commands the use of force or even violence against evil like Jesus using whip and overturning the tables of merchants at the temple.

We should love our enemies.....But not their evil deeds. Show compassion but if they're harming others, it must be reported or stopped. Inaction is tolerance and tolerating people when they cause harm to others is not loving them. It reinforces bad behavior and such is not loving.

Another contributing factor to correlation of Christianity with corruption is money and materialism. I think in some cases, Christians even value money and material things more than unbelievers when they regard it as divine provision, blessing, or sign of God's favor. Which is a false teaching.

The truth is said in 1 John 2:15-16. Things that belong to this world is not from the Father. Give back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar (because it's NOT from the Father).

Organized crime and corruption depends on the people around them placing high value on money and material things so they can be bribed / bought or do nothing against evil at risk of losing their material wealth. This is why the love of money is the root of all evil and perhaps why organized crime and corruption thrives in countries where a high % of their residents are Christians due to false teachings from tolerance of evil and love of money.

At first glance, we see strong correlation with Christianity and corruption but looking deeper, it's not exactly Christianity causing it but false teachings and churches pretending to be Christians but not preaching the teachings of Jesus but something else.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Carl I do think the Church were more community minded . Lots of visitations and social functions. People never had a thing called the internet. So in your time there was much more interaction and more meaningful experience between people forming more influence and bonding in the community. In your time I do sometimes hear that people once sought out each other’s company in fellowship and in pursuit of understanding scripture. They did search out the scriptures much more. It was nothing for the Jones or the Smiths to turn up uninvited for a chat over many topics and a good cup of coffee or tea. Today you need a appointment or you be carted away for trespassing : )

We had a Pastoral visit the other day - first time in about 70 years.

 

[timewerx]

We had a Pastoral visit the other day - first time in about 70 years.

I think some of the Asian churches in NZ still practice house meetings / Bible studies and sometimes with the pastor. On Saturdays I think. Different house each week and the usual corporate gathering in a church on Sundays.

Anyway, if most the church has gone astray and "Christianity" experiencing a decline, then it's the not real church that's declining but the apostate ones (A "found sheep" cannot be lost again). It can be a good thing.

 

[Kathleen30]

We had a Pastoral visit the other day - first time in about 70 years.

The first time you had a pastoral visit in 70 yrs. Carl that’s very much long time. What did you do to recieve such a visit? Perhaps back pay in tithes were overdue: )