The Conjunction of Opposites

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Surely the devil was not created as an adversary. After all, at the end of His creating, God pronounce everything that He'd created at "very good." At some time after his creation, Satan fell/disobeyed God.

Everything being very good is ONLY possible with God's Hands upon everything. Not that the tempter and his works were very good. God is powerful enough for the outcome. Not the creation.

Also nowhere in scripture is the devil or demons ever stated as previously being holy angels

Surely the devil was not created as an adversary. After all, at the end of His creating, God pronounce everything that He'd created at "very good." At some time after his creation, Satan fell/disobeyed God.

Common freewill fantasy story that's not contained in scripture

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Negative.

God created Lucifer.

Lucifer even took part in celebrating the creation of the earth.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars [this would include Lucifer] sang together, and all the sons of God [Lucifer included] shouted for joy?

Are you going to claim Satan is Jesus' brother? Mormon much?

 

[David Lamb]

Everything being very good is ONLY possible with God's Hands upon everything. Not that the tempter and his works were very good. God is powerful enough for the outcome. Not the creation.

Also nowhere in scripture is the devil or demons ever stated as previously being holy angels

Jesus said:

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” (Lu 10:18 NKJV)

Common freewill fantasy story that's not contained in scripture

I'm not sure what free will has to do with it. I don't believe our wills are free.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Jesus said:

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” (Lu 10:18 NKJV)

Just because Satan was in heaven doesn't ever mean Satan was once holy.

The knowledge of evil was also in heaven. Just vacant of evil occupants after Satan's casting into the earth, into the dust of mankind's earth bodies
specifically, ala Mark 4:15

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I'm not sure what free will has to do with it. I don't believe our wills are free.

Of course there is no freewill. Evil and temptations via evil lawless thoughts are within us all and it can't be stopped because they are of the tempter and/or his own

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you going to claim Satan is Jesus' brother?

No -- where did you get that idea?

Jesus is God.

Lucifer is an angel.

Mormon much?

Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

[David Lamb]

Just because Satan was in heaven doesn't ever mean Satan was once holy.

The knowledge of evil was also in heaven. Just vacant of evil occupants after Satan's casting into the earth, into the dust of mankind's earth bodies
specifically, ala Mark 4:15

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Of course there is no freewill. Evil and temptations via evil lawless thoughts are within us all and it can't be stopped because they are of the tempter and/or his own

I agree with your last paragraph about free will.

Regarding Satan, what do you believe was Satan's origin? Was he created by God? Surely he must have been, for various verses tell us that He created all things. For example:

“and to make all see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;” (Eph 3:9 NKJV)

Or do you believe Satan is somehow eternal, as God is?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Regarding Satan, what do you believe was Satan's origin?

When light was separated from darkness, in Gen. 1:4:

Acts 26
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Was he created by God? Surely he must have been, for various verses tell us that He created all things. For example:

I'd really have to term Satan more of an antiCreation, but yes, also made by God. Like the walking dead. The "waster/destroyer."

Isaiah 54:16

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

We could almost call it an antispiritual robot, a antispiritual machine of unseen sorts that reacts adversely and destructively within creation and within mankind in particular

Or do you believe Satan is somehow eternal, as God is?

I believe "it" will be set aside at the end of this wicked age, after being booted out of mankind, ala Matt. 25 sheep/goat separation. The only 2 parties in any parable are mankind and devils, and God of course as the Word

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

No -- where did you get that idea?

Jesus is God.

Lucifer is an angel.

Satan is a "wicked angel" or evil messenger if you prefer. Never holy. Never stated as holy. A false messenger. One who can transform himself "into" a being of light, phony nevertheless.

Your citing of morning star is more interesting. Maybe not for association study beginners.

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Lucifer is actually termed "a man" also in the scripture because Satan occupies the dust/flesh/clay of mankind.

A false light. A usurper of mankind. An alien inhabitant. A stranger to God in Christ. A foreign enemy. A booger on the tip of God's left hand index finger to be flicked off at the proper time.

The 2 Cor. 11:13-15 show these false workers inhabit even Apostles, as Paul himself testified in 2 Cor. 12:7. <-This is one sign of a legitimate apostle. We "try" them and find them what? LIARS because there is a liar inhabiting the LAIR of their own flesh and one must be IN TRUTH to speak of it. Otherwise the lips of the captives of Satan are LOCKED and can not speak the truth of this matter.

 

[AV1611VET]

Satan is a "wicked angel" or evil messenger if you prefer.

I prefer "fallen angel," which implies he was not "fallen" at one time.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Never holy.

As "Satan," no, he was never holy.

As "Lucifer," yes, he was holy.

Never stated as holy.

Not by name, but by vocation.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

A false messenger.

A fallen angel.

One who can transform himself "into" a being of light, phony nevertheless.

Correct.

Your citing of morning star is more interesting.

It is basic doctrine as well.

Maybe not for association study beginners.

Meh ...

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

But Hebrews makes it clear He is not the morning stars of the angelic realm.

Lucifer is actually termed "a man" also in the scripture because Satan occupies the dust/flesh/clay of mankind.

If you're speaking of Tyrus, Tyrus was most probably possessed by Satan.

From AI Overview:

According to biblical interpretation, the prophetic text in Ezekiel 28:11–19, which addresses the "king of Tyrus," is widely believed to be a dual prophecy referring to Satan as the real power behind the earthly monarch. While the actual king may not have been literally possessed, he was so profoundly influenced by Satan's spirit of pride and rebellion that the prophet's words transition from addressing the human ruler to describing Satan's own fall from perfection.

Unlike when Jesus addressed Satan, who was influencing Peter, Tyrus may have been actually possessed.

A false light. A usurper of mankind. An alien inhabitant. A stranger to God in Christ. A foreign enemy. A booger on the tip of God's left hand index finger to be flicked off at the proper time.

No need to add to Satan's profile.

The Bible does just fine.

The 2 Cor. 11:13-15 show these false workers inhabit even Apostles, as Paul himself testified in 2 Cor. 12:7. <-This is one sign of a legitimate apostle. We "try" them and find them what? LIARS because there is a liar inhabiting the LAIR of their own flesh and one must be IN TRUTH to speak of it. Otherwise the lips of the captives of Satan are LOCKED and can not speak the truth of this matter.

Believers can be oppressed -- not possessed.

 

[JulieB67]

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Exactly right.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Exactly right.

Perfect in thy ways = a perfect DEVIL

Nothing more

 

[AV1611VET]

Perfect in thy ways = a perfect DEVIL

Nothing more

No.

God was addressing Lucifer as Lucifer, not Lucifer as the Devil.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

No.

God was addressing Lucifer as Lucifer, not Lucifer as the Devil.

Maybe read what Jesus said about Satan. A liar and murderer from the beginning. John 8:44

And the term "ANGEL" means messenger. It does not imply "holy"

There are holy angel-messengers and there are wicked/evil/lying/thieving angel-messengers

 

[JulieB67]

Perfect in thy ways = a perfect DEVIL

Nothing more

The Bible when taken as a whole makes it pretty clear that he was perfect until iniquity was found in him. What you call "nothing more" is actually the basis of why God had to wipe out that time period and start again with this earth age. He was never created as an evil being.

But believe what you will....

 

[AV1611VET]

Maybe read what Jesus said about Satan.

I know what Jesus said about Satan.

And He never would have said that about Lucifer, prior to Lucifer becoming Satan.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I know what Jesus said about Satan.

And He never would have said that about Lucifer, prior to Lucifer becoming Satan.

Lucifer deceived, destroyed and imprisoned the world. So does Satan. It's the same entity regardless,

unless you're in some kind of a cult and think that Lucifer was a son of God or Jesus' bro? Arnold Murrayite maybe?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Bible when taken as a whole makes it pretty clear that he was perfect until iniquity was found in him. What you call "nothing more" is actually the basis of why God had to wipe out that time period and start again with this earth age. He was never created as an evil being.

But believe what you will....

Perfect "in thy ways" simply makes Satan a perfect devil.

When we say perfect it can attach to many items or persons. Doesn't necessarily and automatically mean God Perfect or Holy perfect, like a perfect flower or even a perfect man, like Job, still a sinner regardless because sin is "of the devil."

The text does present that there is no such creature here on earth that is a sole individual. There is the person and there is the tempter or his own in operations within everyone. Basic presentation.

However those who champion Satan are probably under the influences, especially when trying to make Satan holy or deny they have tempations via that agent that is not them.

 

[JulieB67]

Perfect "in thy ways" simply makes Satan a perfect devil.

No, the Hebrew makes it pretty clear-

In the Hebrew -without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely sound, without spot, undefiled,

It was only when iniquity was found in him that he ceased to be perfect -tamin in the Hebrew.


Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

The text does present that there is no such creature here on earth that is a sole individual.

Satan is his own entity. He will be here sometime in the future to deceive the nations. That's what the gospel armor is for -to be able to stand in "the evil day"

At this present time, we can resist the devil and he will flee. It's too bad you see this as a lie for some reason.

Do you not really believe one can put God's will over their own? If so, you must believe Christ and the disciples/apostles are wasting their time telling us so.

However those who champion Satan

I don't know, but going by most of your posts it seems you're the one championing him to some degree when it comes to his power over someone.

And according to this statement-

There is the person and there is the tempter or his own in operations within everyone.

You are leaving out God/Christ/The Holy Spirit out of the equation within a Christian. That's who we are supposed to abode with.

He has no power over a Christian who resists him. That's a fact. Will we fall short at times? Of course but when one is maturing as a Christian it does get easier to be able to resist and God will always give us a way out of temptations, that's another promise. We will never be perfect in the flesh but thankfully God is the heart knower. He knows who's sincere in their walk.

Paul gives us a perfect example of what one must do-

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

 

[AV1611VET]

Lucifer deceived, destroyed and imprisoned the world.

Not as Lucifer though -- as Satan.

Picture me as a captain in the Navy -- Captain Joe.

Then "iniquity is found in me" and I get a dishonorable discharge; whereupon I go out and spend the rest of my life looting and pillaging and murdering people.

Is "Captain Joe" doing those things? did the Navy create a murderer?

So does Satan. It's the same entity regardless,

Yes -- Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.

But under two different names, they get two different sets of credit: one good, one bad.

... unless you're in some kind of a cult and think that Lucifer was a son of God ...

Lucifer, as a created angel, was a son of God.

Not in the sense that he was "begotten" of God, but in the sense that he was -- for lack of a better term -- "adopted" by God.

The 1828 Webster's dictionary, our church's go-to dictionary for study, has nine different definitions for "son."

One of which is a "term of affection."

... or Jesus' bro?

Absolutely not.

Arnold Murrayite maybe?

Never heard of him.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

No, the Hebrew makes it pretty clear-

In the Hebrew -without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely sound, without spot, undefiled,

It was only when iniquity was found in him that he ceased to be perfect -tamin in the Hebrew.

Jesus was clear that Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, John 8:44

Satan is his own entity. He will be here sometime in the future to deceive the nations.

Where have you been? Not only a liar and murderer from the beginning, but a thief from day 1 of mankind, Mark 4:15

That's what the gospel armor is for -to be able to stand in "the evil day"

If your claim is Satan only in future activity that not scripturally accurate whatsoever

At this present time, we can resist the devil and he will flee. It's too bad you see this as a lie for some reason.

I believe Satan is not mankind. To those that see that there is a division or fleeing there

What that doesn't mean is that we are sinless and that the tempter no longer operates in our flesh, thereby defining us all

All have sin. Romans 3:9
Sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

These are still true ^^

Do you not really believe one can put God's will over their own? If so, you must believe Christ and the disciples/apostles are wasting their time telling us so.

God's will bound ALL to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.

The spirits of disobedience are specified as exempt from either salvation or mercy

I don't know, but going by most of your posts it seems you're the one championing him to some degree when it comes to his power over someone.

Oh? What is that? Because I see fault in Satan not PEOPLE? You should know better

And according to this statement-

You are leaving out God/Christ/The Holy Spirit out of the equation within a Christian. That's who we are supposed to abode with.

There is no excuses available for the devil. Why are you providing them is a more accurate question.

Show me where Jesus preached salvation for DEVILS.

He has no power over a Christian who resists him. That's a fact.

Are you claiming you have no sin and your sin is NOT connected to the devil? Lets hear it.

Will we fall short at times? Of course

Yeah. So when you don't fall short you're sinless? Or do you have a ritual that makes you sinless? Or a belief that made you sinless.

All such claims would be basic lies.

but when one is maturing as a Christian it does get easier to be able to resist

No matter. We do not become sinless because the tempter is in operation regardless of our actions or lack thereof

and God will always give us a way out of temptations

Oh, you have temptations by the tempter do you? Welcome to the FACT

, that's another promise. We will never be perfect in the flesh but thankfully God is the heart knower. He knows who's sincere in their walk.

If you think that extends to the tempter think again

Christ is the enemy of sinners and satan/devils are sinners and THEY sin in everyone

Paul gives us a perfect example of what one must do-

Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Again, if you think this subject is just about you, you haven't even set foot on the wrestling match yet