Christians - May I have your attention for a moment?

[Carl Emerson]

​

May I have your attention for a moment? I write as a lay person with a deep concern for Christianity in the modern world.
I am inviting comment and reflection, maybe some will share my passion, some may disagree. However, let us review how we practically live out our Christianity in this age.
Where do I begin? Back in the mid 70’s I made a very conscious decision to refer to the Christian scripture as the last word on matters of faith and reality. I had experienced a prodigal’s return and building on my Christian roots was crucial to the journey back to normality.
It became clear to me early on, that pride in its various forms was a very basic trap, so I resolved to keep matters simple. It was clear to me that our God does not judge on the basis of intelligence therefore the truth had to be simple and understandable.
If the bible was indeed God’s roadmap for life then its understanding was not confined to the scholars, but rather the keys for understanding were available to all.

From my learning about Church history I found that repeatedly, when God impacted a whole society and there was wholesale repentance, everywhere bibles were being dusted off, as everyone intuitively knew that when things got serious with God, the bible was the place to look for understanding.
And so it is today, we are in need of a fresh visitation; our society is progressively and rapidly rejecting Christian values and truths.

But it is us I would like to talk about. Brothers and Sisters in Christ, how does our mode of living compare to the simple teachings of the scripture?
There is general agreement that wherever Jesus reigns the Kingdom of God is present.
God in Jesus was quite specific about how we should recognise this. He sent word to John, in order that these would be no doubt, “the blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.”

Now the reality is that these signs of the Kingdom are almost totally absent in New Zealand Christianity today yet these signs confirm the presence of Jesus.
What then has happened? This evidence of Jesus was clearly present in the early church but is noticeably absent in modern day Christianity for the most part.
I have to say that there are some simple reasons for this.
Those committed to our church work have become sophisticated and professional. They are generally well trained, talented individuals, able to lead, good managers, but are usually unfamiliar with the power of Jesus at work.

Why has this happened?
Looking back on the last thirty years, the times when Kingdom miracle signs have been evident in New Zealand certain conditions have been met.
Firstly there has been a God given unity among the believers involved.
Management and motivation were not predominant but simple Faith and Love was.
There was generally a lay ministry flowing, the believers would come together to share what God had done, there was a credible manifestation of Jesus in everyday life.
Being part of such an exciting experience meant that things of earth did grow strangely dim… we held onto our possessions more lightly, and there was supply for those who stepped out in God’s purpose without visible support.
The body of believers owned the vision which was planted in their hearts by Jesus rather than being sold by the leaders.
It seems that in the absence of God’s power we have built better programmes to compensate, become better organised so much so that it would be business as usual whether Jesus turns up or not.
Of course we have modified our theology to justify what isn’t happening, but this only masks the problem.
How then do we return to a vibrant biblical Christianity with conversion growth, and transformed lives? We need to return to the early church model clearly represented in the first Jerusalem Church (Acts 2:42-47), and the writings of Paul.
Start small with your close friends, read the scripture together and give God a blank page and room to move. Say less and pray more. Believe and act on the words of promise in the scripture. Confess your sin to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed…

 

[Kathleen30]

​

May I have your attention for a moment? I write as a lay person with a deep concern for Christianity in the modern world.
I am inviting comment and reflection, maybe some will share my passion, some may disagree. However, let us review how we practically live out our Christianity in this age.
Where do I begin? Back in the mid 70’s I made a very conscious decision to refer to the Christian scripture as the last word on matters of faith and reality. I had experienced a prodigal’s return and building on my Christian roots was crucial to the journey back to normality.
It became clear to me early on, that pride in its various forms was a very basic trap, so I resolved to keep matters simple. It was clear to me that our God does not judge on the basis of intelligence therefore the truth had to be simple and understandable.
If the bible was indeed God’s roadmap for life then its understanding was not confined to the scholars, but rather the keys for understanding were available to all.

From my learning about Church history I found that repeatedly, when God impacted a whole society and there was wholesale repentance, everywhere bibles were being dusted off, as everyone intuitively knew that when things got serious with God, the bible was the place to look for understanding.
And so it is today, we are in need of a fresh visitation; our society is progressively and rapidly rejecting Christian values and truths.

But it is us I would like to talk about. Brothers and Sisters in Christ, how does our mode of living compare to the simple teachings of the scripture?
There is general agreement that wherever Jesus reigns the Kingdom of God is present.
God in Jesus was quite specific about how we should recognise this. He sent word to John, in order that these would be no doubt, “the blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.”

Now the reality is that these signs of the Kingdom are almost totally absent in New Zealand Christianity today yet these signs confirm the presence of Jesus.
What then has happened? This evidence of Jesus was clearly present in the early church but is noticeably absent in modern day Christianity for the most part.
I have to say that there are some simple reasons for this.
Those committed to our church work have become sophisticated and professional. They are generally well trained, talented individuals, able to lead, good managers, but are usually unfamiliar with the power of Jesus at work.

Why has this happened?
Looking back on the last thirty years, the times when Kingdom miracle signs have been evident in New Zealand certain conditions have been met.
Firstly there has been a God given unity among the believers involved.
Management and motivation were not predominant but simple Faith and Love was.
There was generally a lay ministry flowing, the believers would come together to share what God had done, there was a credible manifestation of Jesus in everyday life.
Being part of such an exciting experience meant that things of earth did grow strangely dim… we held onto our possessions more lightly, and there was supply for those who stepped out in God’s purpose without visible support.
The body of believers owned the vision which was planted in their hearts by Jesus rather than being sold by the leaders.
It seems that in the absence of God’s power we have built better programmes to compensate, become better organised so much so that it would be business as usual whether Jesus turns up or not.
Of course we have modified our theology to justify what isn’t happening, but this only masks the problem.
How then do we return to a vibrant biblical Christianity with conversion growth, and transformed lives? We need to return to the early church model clearly represented in the first Jerusalem Church (Acts 2:42-47), and the writings of Paul.
Start small with your close friends, read the scripture together and give God a blank page and room to move. Say less and pray more. Believe and act on the words of promise in the scripture. Confess your sin to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed…

Carl I do think the Church were more community minded . Lots of visitations and social functions. People never had a thing called the internet. So in your time there was much more interaction and more meaningful experience between people forming more influence and bonding in the community. In your time I do sometimes hear that people once sought out each other’s company in fellowship and in pursuit of understanding scripture. They did search out the scriptures much more. It was nothing for the Jones or the Smiths to turn up uninvited for a chat over many topics and a good cup of coffee or tea. Today you need a appointment or you be carted away for trespassing : )

 

[com7fy8]

I had experienced a prodigal’s return

For a while I was quite into self-righteously judging and looking down my nose at pretty much everyone.

repeatedly, when God impacted a whole society

Well, God's word says God gives "increase", right? So, if some whole society thing takes off, God keeps giving increase.

He sent word to John, in order that these would be no doubt, “the blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.”

That is what Jesus used with John who perhaps had given in to doubting. So, Jesus reached him at his level of that time. So, that might not have been the golden standard of how Jesus confirms Himself.

these signs confirm the presence of Jesus.

Why are certain people giving so much attention to this outward confirmation????

in the early church

And how mature were those Christians, who had just started in the Holy Spirit.

I would say . . . in any case . . . first be submissive to God, yourself. And you will have exactly all that God has for you . . . right *n*o*w*. And He will do with you all that He pleases, right now . . . because of you obeying Him now.

Those committed to our church work have become sophisticated and professional. They are generally well trained, talented individuals, able to lead, good managers, but are usually unfamiliar with the power of Jesus at work.

So . . . if we obey Jesus, this will connect us with others who are obeying Jesus . . . now. So, I would not spend much time on ones who are not obeying the Lord Jesus who died for us and rose on the third day from the dead. We can have a way of connecting with ones who are like us and who support how we are ready to see things.

Right now, Jesus can do whatsoever He pleases with any of us.

We need to return to the early church model clearly represented in the first Jerusalem Church (Acts 2:42-47), and the writings of Paul.

Well, I have offered how the early church did not have people who were forty or fifty years mature and growing in Christ. They did have gifts, though, which are good and perfect like God Himself, in them; however, they had not matured in love to make them good and perfect like the Holy Spirit operating those gifts.

However, our Apostle Paul . . . by the time he wrote certain epistles, he might have been more than forty or fifty years mature and growing in Jesus. So, I would not lump the early new church together with Paul when he became mature enough to write what may be his more mature letters.

And look how John became able to write, and Peter . . . I would say, after they grew for decades in the Lord and relating and sharing with God's people.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why are certain people giving so much attention to this outward confirmation????

Because Jesus did.

John 11.

2 Now when John, while imprisoned, heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?” 4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive sight and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”

 

[Godcrazy]

​

May I have your attention for a moment? I write as a lay person with a deep concern for Christianity in the modern world.
I am inviting comment and reflection, maybe some will share my passion, some may disagree. However, let us review how we practically live out our Christianity in this age.
Where do I begin? Back in the mid 70’s I made a very conscious decision to refer to the Christian scripture as the last word on matters of faith and reality. I had experienced a prodigal’s return and building on my Christian roots was crucial to the journey back to normality.
It became clear to me early on, that pride in its various forms was a very basic trap, so I resolved to keep matters simple. It was clear to me that our God does not judge on the basis of intelligence therefore the truth had to be simple and understandable.
If the bible was indeed God’s roadmap for life then its understanding was not confined to the scholars, but rather the keys for understanding were available to all.

From my learning about Church history I found that repeatedly, when God impacted a whole society and there was wholesale repentance, everywhere bibles were being dusted off, as everyone intuitively knew that when things got serious with God, the bible was the place to look for understanding.
And so it is today, we are in need of a fresh visitation; our society is progressively and rapidly rejecting Christian values and truths.

But it is us I would like to talk about. Brothers and Sisters in Christ, how does our mode of living compare to the simple teachings of the scripture?
There is general agreement that wherever Jesus reigns the Kingdom of God is present.
God in Jesus was quite specific about how we should recognise this. He sent word to John, in order that these would be no doubt, “the blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.”

Now the reality is that these signs of the Kingdom are almost totally absent in New Zealand Christianity today yet these signs confirm the presence of Jesus.
What then has happened? This evidence of Jesus was clearly present in the early church but is noticeably absent in modern day Christianity for the most part.
I have to say that there are some simple reasons for this.
Those committed to our church work have become sophisticated and professional. They are generally well trained, talented individuals, able to lead, good managers, but are usually unfamiliar with the power of Jesus at work.

Why has this happened?
Looking back on the last thirty years, the times when Kingdom miracle signs have been evident in New Zealand certain conditions have been met.
Firstly there has been a God given unity among the believers involved.
Management and motivation were not predominant but simple Faith and Love was.
There was generally a lay ministry flowing, the believers would come together to share what God had done, there was a credible manifestation of Jesus in everyday life.
Being part of such an exciting experience meant that things of earth did grow strangely dim… we held onto our possessions more lightly, and there was supply for those who stepped out in God’s purpose without visible support.
The body of believers owned the vision which was planted in their hearts by Jesus rather than being sold by the leaders.
It seems that in the absence of God’s power we have built better programmes to compensate, become better organised so much so that it would be business as usual whether Jesus turns up or not.
Of course we have modified our theology to justify what isn’t happening, but this only masks the problem.
How then do we return to a vibrant biblical Christianity with conversion growth, and transformed lives? We need to return to the early church model clearly represented in the first Jerusalem Church (Acts 2:42-47), and the writings of Paul.
Start small with your close friends, read the scripture together and give God a blank page and room to move. Say less and pray more. Believe and act on the words of promise in the scripture. Confess your sin to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed…

This was what I was doing, when I experienced miracles just by praying for people. I believed, and acted. I was like.. it says, he says so I do.
I heard a video last night from a catholic exorcist that I often do as they have so much knowledge. this was Fr Rippberger and he is also educated in psychology and that is my field. So what he was on about I found highly interesting. He said most churches nowadays are not wanting to hear about or know about the spiritual reality of the faith or spiritual warfare that they are atheistic about it. He said it was a big problem, prevents God from working. Makes people asleep in the church and everything about money or buildings and programs. (not that it does not have its place) but it has taken over. People don`t believe in the supernatural or want to know. IN the church. Those who do talk about it hear often they are "too much" this or that. But truth is he said most about christianity IS about spiritual warfare and the supernatural reality. I think this is why as he explained. I have had it myself I was told by a priest that I should not talk about the miracles I have experienced as some would not take it lightly.

 

[bèlla]

However, our Apostle Paul . . . by the time he wrote certain epistles, he might have been more than forty or fifty years mature and growing in Jesus. So, I would not lump the early new church together with Paul when he became mature enough to write what may be his more mature letters.

And look how John became able to write, and Peter . . . I would say, after they grew for decades in the Lord and relating and sharing with God's people.

Many ignore the fact that Paul was very learned prior to his conversion. He was entrusted with ministering to the gentiles for a reason. And I don’t agree with the pedestal we’ve applied to the early church nor do I think they were more mature.

Society often looks to former times when things are hard or uncertainty looms. We’ve seen a similar romanticization with the 1950s in our culture and the acts church is the christian response to the same. Did we hear the same in the 80s when things were booming or similar periods?

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

And I don’t agree with the pedestal we’ve applied to the early church nor do I think they were more mature.

Do you really think the Love of Jesus was less expressed throughout the early church in the first 5 chapters of Acts ?

 

[Carl Emerson]

This was what I was doing, when I experienced miracles just by praying for people. I believed, and acted. I was like.. it says, he says so I do.
I heard a video last night from a catholic exorcist that I often do as they have so much knowledge. this was Fr Rippberger and he is also educated in psychology and that is my field. So what he was on about I found highly interesting. He said most churches nowadays are not wanting to hear about or know about the spiritual reality of the faith or spiritual warfare that they are atheistic about it. He said it was a big problem, prevents God from working. Makes people asleep in the church and everything about money or buildings and programs. (not that it does not have its place) but it has taken over. People don`t believe in the supernatural or want to know. IN the church. Those who do talk about it hear often they are "too much" this or that. But truth is he said most about christianity IS about spiritual warfare and the supernatural reality. I think this is why as he explained. I have had it myself I was told by a priest that I should not talk about the miracles I have experienced as some would not take it lightly.

Back in the late 70's I showed the video "Viva Christo Rey" about the breakout of revival among the poor in Mexico. Those who heard and saw what God was doing were strongly convicted and on occasion the audience was silent for many minutes in response to what they were seeing.

I guess we are light years away from such encounters with God's Love these days - we have focused on 'Church Growth' and less on transforming encounter with God, community, and taking His life to the poor.

 

[bèlla]

Do you really think the Love of Jesus was less expressed throughout the early church in the first 5 chapters of Acts ?

No, I don’t believe everyone in the early church displayed the love of Christ identically. Variance is a part of the human condition. Which means you’ll see some people excelling in areas where others don’t. And inequitable workloads wouldn’t be unheard of. None of which is inherently bad.

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

Within 50 or so years John was inspired to bring a word of warning and rebuke to the churches.

They were exhorted to return to 'first love' and do what they did at first.

What they did was recorded in early Acts - however the cost of returning to such a loving fellowship proved too high in most cases.

As per. the warning many lost their lampstand of His anointing.

Few churches today pay the price of heeding this call sadly, so we have churches that are more of a museum to a faith that once was.

And the world watches on hoping for life and love.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No, I don’t believe everyone in the early church displayed the love of Christ identically. Variance is a part of the human condition. Which means you’ll see some people excelling in areas where others don’t. And inequitable workloads wouldn’t be unheard of. None of which is inherently bad.

~bella

Absolutely correct.

I didn't suggest that.

But it would be a stretch to suggest that churches today have anything like the impact on society that the new born church had when the Love of Jesus was so strongly evident among them.

 

[com7fy8]

Because Jesus did.

Yes, Jesus did call attention to the signs and wonders in sending a message to John the Baptist, in order to confirm who Jesus is.

But something certain early church magnifiers do not mention is the part where Jesus says the poor have the Gospel preached to them, and blessed is the one not offended in Jesus.

And I offer, again, how Jesus said that to a person in doubt.

And elsewhere Jesus does say no sign will be given to certain people, except the sign of Jonah.

Also, we have how Abraham tells the rich man that the man's brothers would not believe even if one rose from the dead to talk with them.

So . . . yes, God might show signs and wonders; however, it is possible He knows they do not make the difference. And yet Jesus says if signs and wonders were shown in Sodom and Gomorrah . . . they would remain to His day.

So - I see how things work, however God has things work . . . with signs and without signs. He does not depend on either: with or without, I would say.

Do you really think the Love of Jesus was less expressed throughout the early church in the first 5 chapters of Acts ?

My point is the early church was not a mature church, right away. And at that earlier time of the early church, yes, there were signs and wonders. But the people were not mature, yet. And so, I am offering that we should not try to build things now to be like how things were while the church was new . . . not mature. We have mature people, now, including men who meet the description of 1 Timothy 3:1-10 which gives the qualifications of "a bishop".

And Peter did that wonder, of having the lame man walk, while Peter still was not a maturely sound and stable person. After all, in Galatians 2:11-13 we read how later, to my knowledge, Peter played the hypocrite, as did Barnabas . . . not what mature people would do, I would say. And yet, it does seem Barnabas, by then, was pretty mature or something like that, yet still able to do that.

So, in any case, what is really needed is all God does ***within*** us. And signs and wonders did not do that, and did not keep Peter and "even Barnabas" from playing the hypocrite.

So, we might give our main attention to what we need for God Himself to do, within us. Because even after all Peter and Barnabas did and witnessed . . . still . . .

 

[com7fy8]

They were exhorted to return to 'first love' and do what they did at first.

I recall one translation saying to do "the first works". It does not say "at first".

"First" can be what was at the beginning. But, also, can it not mean the things which come first????

If they did what they were doing "at first", then they might go right on back to where they got themselves, from the first time.

Ones say if you keep repeating the same methods, you keep getting the same results.

If I go back to "where I left the Lord", I might just leave Him again. I need to be taken by God to where I will not leave Him and will do all He pleases to share with us.

And signs and wonders have not done this, it seems . . . though they are of God. We need to grow to where we go, with Jesus.

 

[bèlla]

Absolutely correct.

I didn't suggest that.

There’s no way to go back to that period. You can never be what they were because the circumstances and challenges aren’t the same. That influences your outlook and response. Nor are we meant to live from that period. Each age has its hardships and we’re called to them for a reason. Not to look backwards but draw from the lessons we’ve learned to navigate today.

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, Jesus did call attention to the signs and wonders in sending a message to John the Baptist, in order to confirm who Jesus is.

But something certain early church magnifiers do not mention is the part where Jesus says the poor have the Gospel preached to them, and blessed is the one not offended in Jesus.

And I offer, again, how Jesus said that to a person in doubt.

And elsewhere Jesus does say no sign will be given to certain people, except the sign of Jonah.

Also, we have how Abraham tells the rich man that the man's brothers would not believe even if one rose from the dead to talk with them.

So . . . yes, God might show signs and wonders; however, it is possible He knows they do not make the difference. And yet Jesus says if signs and wonders were shown in Sodom and Gomorrah . . . they would remain to His day.

So - I see how things work, however God has things work . . . with signs and without signs. He does not depend on either: with or without, I would say.

My point is the early church was not a mature church, right away. And at that earlier time of the early church, yes, there were signs and wonders. But the people were not mature, yet. And so, I am offering that we should not try to build things now to be like how things were while the church was new . . . not mature. We have mature people, now, including men who meet the description of 1 Timothy 3:1-10 which gives the qualifications of "a bishop".

And Peter did that wonder, of having the lame man walk, while Peter still was not a maturely sound and stable person. After all, in Galatians 2:11-13 we read how later, to my knowledge, Peter played the hypocrite, as did Barnabas . . . not what mature people would do, I would say. And yet, it does seem Barnabas, by then, was pretty mature or something like that, yet still able to do that.

So, in any case, what is really needed is all God does ***within*** us. And signs and wonders did not do that, and did not keep Peter and "even Barnabas" from playing the hypocrite.

So, we might give our main attention to what we need for God Himself to do, within us. Because even after all Peter and Barnabas did and witnessed . . . still . . .

Mature church...

When I was privileged to be involved in bringing Jesus to the inner city folk we were hard pressed to find churches capable of supporting the converts because they were so raw.

The Pastor of my church said that churches were not within a bulls roar of what we were doing with them.

It was all about Love and faith and signs confirmed the Word as you read in Mark.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I recall one translation saying to do "the first works". It does not say "at first".

"First" can be what was at the beginning. But, also, can it not mean the things which come first????

If they did what they were doing "at first", then they might go right on back to where they got themselves, from the first time.

Ones say if you keep repeating the same methods, you keep getting the same results.

If I go back to "where I left the Lord", I might just leave Him again. I need to be taken by God to where I will not leave Him and will do all He pleases to share with us.

And signs and wonders have not done this, it seems . . . though they are of God. We need to grow to where we go, with Jesus.

This is a sad response...

I have seen life but few want it.

It is not about signs, it is about Love and where there is Love He reigns and He confirms His Word with signs.

I am here to talk about life and Love - conversation is welcome - argument so often destroys.

 

[bèlla]

This is a sad response...

I have seen life but few want it.

It is not about signs, it is about Love and where there is Love He reigns and He confirms His Word with signs.

I am here to talk about life and Love - conversation is welcome - argument so often destroys.

You’re being unfair to him and this is a discussion board. Not a forum for blanket agreement. What you envision may be appropriate for where you are and the people you’re interacting with. We’re on a different continent with its own hardships that must be addressed. Your solutions may not be ideal for America and the reverse holds true.

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

There’s no way to go back to that period. You can never be what they were because the circumstances and challenges aren’t the same. That influences your outlook and response. Nor are we meant to live from that period. Each age has its hardships and we’re called to them for a reason. Not to look backwards but draw from the lessons we’ve learned to navigate today.

~bella

Then why did John say to return to what they did at first ?

Folks resist the lessons of early Acts because it is in the too hard basket - yet they burst forth in revival.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You’re being unfair to him and this is a discussion board. Not a forum for blanket agreement. What you envision may be appropriate for where you are and the people you’re interacting with. We’re on a different continent with its own hardships that must be addressed. Your solutions may not be ideal for America and the reverse holds true.

~bella

Do we need to move this conversation to another forum ?

 

[bèlla]

Do we need to move this conversation to another forum ?

Not necessarily. If you feel a pressing in your spirit to do something you should heed it. But don’t get upset if others don’t share your fervor. There’s a time and season for all things. We’re in the middle of a catastrophe and the country is imploding. We have a lot of extremists in our midst. Don’t be surprised if we aren’t rushing to live together or share our resources.

And just because they’re believers doesn’t mean they’re safe. Christians are making some wild statements on the internet. Calling Obama the antichrist, predicting Trump’s death, making heinous remarks against political figures and leaders and so on. I’ve even seen people laughing about Gaza too and justifying the deaths. That passes my line in the sand.

I answered your question on the other thread and I think it’s more engaging.

~bella