How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

[Valletta]

We don’t celebrate it in the US, and I would also note the Wachowski Brothers in the film V for Vendetta did Roman Catholics a service by subverting that event and turning Guy Fawkes into a heroic figure for millennials.

I am thinking it was when I was in England and New Zealand.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It's not explicitly in Holy Scripture:
Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord RSVCE
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit RSVCE

We know the truth in my previous post because it was passed down through the Apostles and the popes in the Catholic Church.

Sounds clear to me, I think the Bible does a good job of explaining Itself. Pro 3:5-6 I believe Scripture paints a different light on what makes up God’s church, but I know we won’t agree and I guess all will get sorted out in God’s time.

Be well.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think you're referring to Trinity’s refusal to let the protesters from Zuccotti Park move to Trinity's owned nearby lot at Duarte Square, and the fallout from that?

That was after my time in the financial district.

Forgive me, I confused it with a similar incident that happened in London where St. Paul’s made the mistake of inviting the Occupy protestors to the area between the cathedral and the privately owned Paternoster Square, which had a disastrous effect on the Paternoster Chop House, one of my favorite restaurants in London at the time, and probably my favorite in the Square Mile.

 

[The Liturgist]

not something I need the Catholic church to explain

You need a church that is in some sense Catholic to explain it, because however you define it, the One Holy Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic Church mentioned in the Creed definitely exists, and in Western Europe the Church in Rome was invaluable in transmitting the Gospel and the doctrine of the Trinity and was not controversial until the 9th century when the first problems with the Orthodox happened (aside from the mishap at Chalcedon wherein the Oriental Orthodox were inadvertently alienated in an attempt to deal with the problem of Eutyches by a combination of heavy handed treatment of Dioscorus and the Tome of Leo appearing to contradict St. Cyril, but this was really the fault of Nestorius and crypto-Nestorian saboteurs like the sinister Ibas).

 

[Jipsah]

Mary referred to Joseph as Jesus father Luke 2:48

He was certainly our Lord's foster father. But he was quite obviously not our Lords actual male ancestor, His real, actual, genetic father. Even y'all don't believe that.

there was an earthy father for Jesus

Aka a "foster father". Not at all the same as an actual father.

and an earthy mother for Jesus.

Joseph was an "earthly mother" for Jesus? Now that is really weird, given that Joseph was a man, and our Lord's actual physical mother was right there on the premises.

Jesus was 100% human and 100% God.

Stipulated.

Joseph and Mary were His human parents.

Mary, His mother, and Joseph, His foster father. Let's not confuse things nnecessarily, shall we?

Having sex with your husband is not adultery.

Could easily be construed as such if the child's c actual genetic Father is still living and the husband isn't physically related to the Child at all.

I have read it and nothing remotely indicates the ark of the covenant is Mary.

I'd submit that the belief has substantially better Scriptural warrant that dues your "Investigative Judgement" doctrine, but it all depends on whose ox is being gored, doesn't it

You are forgetting what God said was inside the Ark, not mary, but His own Testimony, the Ten Commandments.

Nemmind that God Himself was inside the Blessend Virgin.

We are told to live by every Word that God said, not what man says.

Unless it the utter dearth of any Scripture where Gentile converts to the Church were told to keep the Sabbath.

God already told us what is in the ark and Scripture explains what a women means

Fair play, it's not part of your religion. So noted.

A women in prophecy, represent a church, not Mary. And presumably not Ellen White, either. So?

There are two women in Revelation. The one clothed in light is the church clothed in God's righteousness. The Harlot, while it might seemingly have a godly presence, represents the apostate church.

Which is yours

In God's true church, they keep the commandments of God (His version)

Or at least those of His commandments their leaders deem important.

not the church who boldly claims they changed God's times and laws we are warned about.

I'm keen to know what Church taught the Gentiles to keep the Law, and where it's found in Scripture.

Dan 7:25 that sadly most churches (her daughters) followed, instead of staying faithful to God.

Somehow I get the impression that your church wouldn't have liked the 1sr Century Church very much. Looks like there'd have been a dramatic difference in priorities there, know what I mean?

But you didn't quote Scripture, you added you own ideas to Scripture, which is not the same.

Yeah, if you'd show us where the early Church told the Gentile believers to keep Sabbath I'd be keen to see it.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

It’s the best way of understanding God’s Word is allowing Him to explain through the plain reading of His Word. Sadly, most don’t like the plain reading of the Bible, why there are so many wild interpretations. God tells 90% of His Word plainly - the harder to understand Scripture is explained through His word. Why we are told not to lean on our own understandings Pro 3:5-6, and not to add to His word Pro 30:5-6 that will only lead us down another path - His word is to be the light to our path Psa 119:105 and when we don’t believe His word plainly, it leaves room for someone else to control our minds. The devil deceived 1/3 of the holy angels. Trusting and believing God’s word is what will safeguard us. Going away from His word, there is no light Isa 8:20

Those are your words yet you associate those that follow the plain reading of scripture not as disagreement between fellow believers but actually say they are the harlot of Babylon.
Can you think of more hateful words to say?
Does not scripture say if one says he loves God, yet hates his brother, he is a liar and the truth is not in Him?

You asked for scripture concerning Mary, and when provided, you ignore it. Do you recognize scripture when you see it?

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus

That is part of the Ave Maria prayer recited in the Rosary and is a direct quote from Luke chapter one upon which we meditate. Do you say that Satan instructs us to meditate on scripture?

Scripture was here for over 1800 years before Ellen White came along with her plain reading, and no one came to the conclusions she did. Scripture even speaks against making her claims, but people believe them anyway
Scripture says by works of the law, shall no flesh be justified. I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified.
Go to an SDA church and what do you hear, oh yes Jesus saves us but we have to keep the old law and also the old dietary laws as well, even though is contradicts the Bible when it says there is nothing unclean of itself, and it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean but what comes out

Where was your plain reading for the first 1800 years of the Church? Not even the reformers came to your conclusions yet you say it is plain
If you want to follow Christ and do those things, fine, but when you call others that disagree with you harlots and Satan, even though they too strive to follow Christ, your credibility goes way down. Your words become as a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal 1 Cor 13: 1-5

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I am the worst of sinners, wracked with illness, and desire your prayers and those of Our Lady, for i trust in Christ to heal me in this life or deliver me from suffering in the life of the world to come.

Peace be with you brother. Do not despair of chronic illness. We detach our hearts from material things and the esteem of the world.
Keep your eyes on the prize of eternal life
I too deal with chronic illness and the regret of squandered opportunities to live for God, that I chose to follow the folly of sin. But I can’t dwell on that. God saved me and had mercy in spite of my failings not because of them. I thank Him always, as scripture says, he who has been forgiven much, loves much.
God has given you profound knowledge of Church history and the value of understanding Apostolic teaching.
I would take no joy in getting you to follow Latin rite Catholicism, rather I rejoice in seeing you come to greater love for God in all His glory. His worshipers come from all nations, tribes and tongues

You are in my prayers always


Check out Louis de Montfort’s Total consecration to Jesus through Mary

Or prayers of the Auxilium Christianorum

You should be able to read them in the context of Orthodox Theology. Again,

Peace be with you

 

[Jerry N.]

No, it comes from the Orthodox liturgy, and thence from the Truth, which in turn the Protoevangelion tried to summarize, in the same way that there are books that summarixe other events connected with the early church referred to in the liturgy but not unambiguously in the Scripture itself.

That said had the early church known of the problem of crypto-Nestorianism they would have probably put the Protoevangelion in the canon.

It should be noted that the liturgy itself was always understood to be protocanon in the most protocanonical sense - precanon you might call it. The importance of a scriptural text is directly proportionate to how often and under what conditions the liturgy uses it, which is why Psalm 151 is canonical but deuterocanonical, since it is not part of the liturgical Psalter in the ancient liturgies, that is to say, it was never appointed to be sung in church, unlike the other 159, so if one sings it one does so as a supplemental devotion.

If you say that Orthodox liturgy came before Protoevangelium of James I won’t argue with you. Thanks for the information.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Those are your words yet you associate those that follow the plain reading of scripture not as disagreement between fellow believers but actually say they are the harlot of Babylon.
Can you think of more hateful words to say?
Does not scripture say if one says he loves God, yet hates his brother, he is a liar and the truth is not in Him?

Sadly, you went to a whole other topic, instead of staying on topic and believing what God said plainly is in His ark.

Regarding Babylon we can still love our brothers and sisters who are in Babylon (false teachings) by showing them what the Scriptures say plainly in hopes and prayers they start believing them and come out like we are told to before its too late Rev 18:4

You asked for scripture concerning Mary, and when provided, you ignore it. Do you recognize scripture when you see it?

Yet you provided no Scripture where it says Mary is the ark of the new covenant and sadly ignored what the plain Scripture said which tells us what is in the ark. I guess that's why you opted to bring Ellen in as a distraction, when I was quoting what God said. no one else. God personally wrote and spoke His Testimony, Exo 31:18 placed inside His ark. Exo 40:20 which is in heaven Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19. The whole Bible is about the testimony of God through His prophets and apostles, yet when it comes to God's own personal Testimony He did not leave for man to write, few believe.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You need a church that is in some sense Catholic to explain it, because however you define it, the One Holy Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic Church mentioned in the Creed definitely exists, and in Western Europe the Church in Rome was invaluable in transmitting the Gospel and the doctrine of the Trinity and was not controversial until the 9th century when the first problems with the Orthodox happened (aside from the mishap at Chalcedon wherein the Oriental Orthodox were inadvertently alienated in an attempt to deal with the problem of Eutyches by a combination of heavy handed treatment of Dioscorus and the Tome of Leo appearing to contradict St. Cyril, but this was really the fault of Nestorius and crypto-Nestorian saboteurs like the sinister Ibas).

Not according to Scripture.

John 14:6 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Just like the Bereans we can study, pray and compare human teachings to the word of God and use His word as our standard, just as we are told Psa 119:105 because going away from His word as many are suggesting, we are told is danger Isa 8:20

 

[The Liturgist]

Not according to Scripture.

So you deny the Nicene Creed?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So you deny the Nicene Creed?

Weird thing to say, that believing the Holy Spirit will teach us all things and bring us back to what God said, is now against the Nicene Creed. So Scripture is against the Nicene Creed in your opinion. Got it.

 

[The Liturgist]

Just like the Bereans we can study, pray and compare human teachings to the word of God and use His word as our standard

If this is true, why is it that several people still respected by your denomination including Miller and most of his followers denied the incarnation? Because they studied, prayed and compared human teachings to the Bible, which they used as their standard. What do you have that non-Trinitarian adventists do not have, and why do non-trinitarian Adventists exist whereas the phrase non-Trinitarian Roman Catholic is an oxymoron?

If you’re going level accusations towards my Roman Catholic friends of various forms of intentional disobedience of God’s Commandments and of institutional dishonesty, I think its only fair to ask why Adventists tolerate non-Trinitarianism, regard as admirable various non-Trinitarians from the Millerite movement, and do not aggressively act to disfellowship those who are privately, and in some cases publically, non-Trinitarian.

Weird thing to say when I quoted Scripture and choose to beleive it.

Do confess one Holy Catholic (Universal)* and Apostolic Church?

* Catholic means according to the whole and does not necessarily refer to one particular denomination, and is usually interpreted by evangelicals to refer to the entirety of Christian believers. But whatever the church-According-to-the-whole is, belief in it is part of the Nicene Creed.

I hope you will say yes, because then I can explain to you why the Trinity requires the teachings of the early church to defend it against three specific heresies (Sabellianism or Modalism, Macedonianism and Tritheism).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If this is true, why is it that several people still respected by your denomination including Miller and most of his followers denied the incarnation? Because they studied, prayed and compared human teachings to the Bible, which they used as their standard. What do you have that non-Trinitarian adventists do not have, and why do non-trinitarian Adventists exist whereas the phrase non-Trinitarian Roman Catholic is an oxymoron?

If you’re going level accusations towards my Roman Catholic friends of various forms of intentional disobedience of God’s Commandments and of institutional dishonesty, I think its only fair to ask why Adventists tolerate non-Trinitarianism, regard as admirable various non-Trinitarians from the Millerite movement, and do not aggressively act to disfellowship those who are privately, and in some cases publically, non-Trinitarian.



Do confess one Holy Catholic (Universal)* and Apostolic Church?

* Catholic means according to the whole and does not necessarily refer to one particular denomination, and is usually interpreted by evangelicals to refer to the entirety of Christian believers. But whatever the church-According-to-the-whole is, belief in it is part of the Nicene Creed.

I hope you will say yes, because then I can explain to you why the Trinity requires the teachings of the early church to defend it against three specific heresies (Sabellianism or Modalism, Macedonianism and Tritheism).

Its impossible to reason when the goal post keeps moving on the topic of what's being discussed.

Plus statements again that are not true, I guess to change the subject, once again to move away from what the Scripture that were posted.

As a FYI AI did an analysis of Ellen Whites writings and your conclusion is wrong. Ai went as far to say those who try to make her writings as non-Trinitarians is lying. You can check it out for yourself.

 

[Jerry N.]

Romans 10:9--If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I think this is the key verse when discussing denominations. Over the years, I have had interactions with several denominations, including those who reject the Nicene Creed. Romans 10:9 is where one should start. Even the most beautiful and respectable denominations have doctrinal flaws. I’m not pretending that I know what they always are, but I’m sure they are there. Growing as a Christian is our duty in this life, and we should do it in addition to loving our neighbor and our Lord. We are not all in the same place in our spiritual growth, and we don’t even know exactly where that is. We can’t possibly know where somebody else is. We get saved and receive the Holy Spirit, but then we search and explore how to live that Christian life. Orthodox, or some Protestant group, Seventh Day Adventists, or Roman Catholic, all offer a place for that growth, and we must decide which or any path to take. I think some are better than others, but that is not my call for anybody but myself. The question of this thread is “How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?” I would have worded it differently as, “Does the Catholic Church lead people toward Christ or away?” I have seen the Catholic Church do both, and I wonder “How? and Why?”

 

[The Liturgist]

If you say that Orthodox liturgy came before Protoevangelium of James I won’t argue with you. Thanks for the information.

Very good, because I can assure you it did, since we have older attestation of the liturgies of Antioch, Alexandria and the Church of the East, and the Protoevangelium merely summarizes what the hymns of the Orthodox liturgies explain in greater detail.

Now I should clarify one thing: the current form of the Feast of the Entry of the Theotokos in the Eastern Orthodox Church uses a kind of hymn called a Canon*, which takes three. Eight or nine Biblical canticles and then adds a gloss of them, and this mostly replaced the older form called the Kontakion written by the likes of St. Romanos the Melodist which in turn replaced the older metrical homilies of St. Ephrem the Syrian and others, which replaced older hymns and synaxaria. There remains a vestigial Kontakion for the feast which is older than the Kanon, which is probably eighth century, and these short Kontakia survive and are used for all liturgies along with the Troparion. The long Kontakion also survives in the form of Akathist hymns; there are also devotional canons which kind of compete with the Akathists but will never replace them.

Other ancient liturgies have their own forms; many such as the Coptic and Syriac Rite also have the Canon, albeit the Copts base it on different Odes and the Syriac Orthodox wrote some of their own while also translating some Greek Canons.

However regardless of the form, all the ancient Eastern liturgies record the Entrance of the Theotokos. The Roman Rite picked it up also thanks to Byzantine influence in Southern Italy, albeit relatively late, indeed it was one of the last Orthodox liturgical observances added to the Roman Catholic calendar before the great schism (the ancient Roman Rite before reforms started in the fifth century culminating in Gregorian chant under Pope St. Gregory I, who had served in Constantinople and translated Byzantine chant into Latin, was, unlike the other Latin and Western liturgies such as the Gallican, Mozarabic and Ambrosian, extremely parsimonius and minimalist, and used monotone predominantly until at least the late fourth century, and continued to chant the Low Mass in monotone until the ninth century, when they switched to mostly praying it quietly), and High Church Anglicans also observe it.

The feast day is November 21, so do mark your calendar, those of you who love the Our Lady as much as I, for she points me to her Son, my God.


* These Canon hymns by the way are unrelated to the Roman Canon, which in the East is called an Anaphora, and in the modern vernacular a Eucharistic Prayer - the Roman Canon is one of the oldest anaphorae, but not the oldest one we know of or the oldest attested one still in use (that is either the Antiochene Anaphora of the Apostles used by the Ethiopians, and used in variant forms, as the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles by the Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholics and Maronite Catholics, and the Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom by the Eastern Orthodox, or the Alexandrian Anaphora of St. Mark, also known as St. Cyril by the Copts and Syriacs, used by the Coptic and Alexandrian Greek churches and the Syriac Orthodox, or the East Syriac Hallowing of the Apostles Addai and Mari, used by the Ancient/Assyrian Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholics and the Syro Malabar Catholics. It is probably not the ancient anaphora of Jerusalem, the Anaphora of St. James, given that for some centuries the Hagiopolitan church was defunct until the restoration of the Holy City by St. Helena, the Christian mother of St. Constantine (without her, Jerusalem would have remained a small largely ruined administrative center called Aelia Capitolina, and we would not have found the Holy Sepulchre, the True Cross, or many other things, and the main centers of Christian pilgrimage in the Holy Land would be Bethlehem and Caesarea (the latter became the center of the church in the province of Syria Palestina after the destruction of Jerusalem in 130 AD following the failed Bar Kochba revolt).

 

[The Liturgist]

As a FYI AI did an analysis of Ellen Whites writings and your conclusion is wrong. Ai went as far to say those who try to make her writings as non-Trinitarians is lying. You can check it out for yourself.

I never accused Ellen White of non-Trinitarianism, on the contrary, I have lauded her Trinitarianism repeatedly, so that’s a red herring.

Now, do you confess one Holy Universal and Apostolic Church?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I never accused Ellen White of non-Trinitarianism, on the contrary, I have lauded her Trinitarianism repeatedly, so that’s a red herring.

You accused the SDA church when its in our Official Beliefs. So its a baseless claim.

Now, do you confess one Holy Universal and Apostolic Church?

No where does it say God's church is the Catholic church. Based on what Scriptures indicates and based on the Catholics own teachings I would say its not. I am sure there are many Christians inside the church who are living up to the light they have, but we are called to come out of the false teachings handed down through the centuries and come into God's true church which is a people who keep the commandments of God (His version Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Rev 11:18-19 James 2:11, Mat 5:19-30 Rom 13:9 etc not mans) and have the faith of Jesus (how did Jesus live, what did He teach) and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:17 Rev 14:12

 

[The Liturgist]

Its impossible to reason when the goal post keeps moving on the topic of what's being discussed

No goalposts have been moved - I want to know based on your assertion we don’t need the Church whether or not you disagree with the Nicene Creed concerning it.

And I’ve made it clear I’m not talking about the Roman Catholic Church when I say “one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.” The definition of the word Catholic is clear, it means “according to the whole” but what “according to the whole” means at present is debated since the Church has had ongoing schisms which have not been completely rectified since 433 AD.

Indeed I would expect Adventists would argue they and other Sabbatarian churches are the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[The Liturgist]

You accused the SDA church when its in our Official Beliefs. So its a baseless claim

No, I did not. I asked why the SDA greatly respects Miller and his followers, not just those who embraced the Trinity after EGW promoted the doctrine, which was good of her. I also asked why the Adventists do not apparently disfellowship non-Trinitarians (if you do vigorously excommunicate them, then my apologies, but there still remains the issue of Adventist appreciation of early pre-SDA Adventists who were usually not Trinitarians except for EGW.

Perhaps @Adventist Dissident or @tall73 might be able to clarify what I am asking for you.