How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

[SabbathBlessings]

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up the Word of God, that which was passed down from Jesus through the Apostles which we call the deposit of the faith. The understanding of the Holy Trinity, one God, three Persons, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, is Sacred Tradition. Using candles for mass and a wreath at Christmas and a cross on top of a church are mere traditions, traditions of man. Teachings of the Catholic Church of course differ from Protestant teachings.

As it turns out the understanding of

"One God" Deut 6:4 "in three Persons" Mat 28:19

is Scripture, not traditions.

 

[The Liturgist]

As it turns out the understanding of

"One God" Deut 6:4 "in three Persons" Mat 28:19

is Scripture, not traditions.

Not clearly enough to prevent Arianism and Nestorianism and Sabellianism unfortunately. This is why Tradition is prescribed by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:2

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Your above argument is built upon a false narrative. As is obvious, illiterate people did make translations of the bible into the common language of the people. Highly educated people who could read and understand scripture in the original languages, were convicted they they needed to translate bible truth in to the common languages of the people, and educate them to be able to read the scriptures for themselves. One of the main reasons they did this, was because they noticed that what the state established church taught and practiced did not line up with what they read in holy scripture, therefore the need for reform and education among the masses.

We most definitely did see all kinds of advances in education, knowledge, development, science, industry, wealth, and opportunity for countless more people than the papal system and feudalism of Europe provided for any but the elites. Namely clergy and royalty. Who quite apparently kept the larger portion of those they subjugated illiterate and uneducated. Which problem the translating of holy scripture immediately began to address with widespread interest in reading them, encouraging more people to learn to read, and more people wanting to teach others to read for this very purpose.

The apostasies or rebellion you speak of above are not due to people having the holy scriptures to read for themselves, or their freedom to do so and choose how to believe for themselves, but rather their abandonment of what the scriptures actually teach. Even within the history of Israel and the church we see the cycle of apostasy, reformation or revival, and the slide back again repeated over and over. The conditions of apostasy become unbearable, abuse runs wild, reformation and revival occur at great sacrifice, people begin to prosper accordingly again, later generations then take this for granted and slide right back into apostasy to repeat the cycle over and over. This is the history recorded in holy scripture even among God's people, let alone the history of the rest of this world.

As far as the development of political forms of atheism and secular humanism go, they were birthed into the modern world via unbridled Roman Catholic rule in France. After Protestantism was successfully ousted from France the disparity between the rich and poor under direct Catholic rule, became so great that the people of France rose up in rebellion and rejected the authority of the Roman Catholic church and God as well altogether. Establishing the supposed god of reason in His place, giving rise to the political entity of secular humanism we must deal with today. Protestantism did not create this beast, unbridled Catholic rule did. Meanwhile Protestant nations became increasingly prosperous and filled with literate and educated peoples.

Apart from all of the above, the price of educated freedom is and always has been high. Allowing for people to decide issues for themselves, and even be wrong if they so choose. God has not called upon His people or any other to subjugate others with mandated religious teaching or practice. It is the personal job of every professed Christian to provide moral guidance, teaching, example and influence, to those around them. If our light goes out, the world is certain to follow. Nevertheless, it has not ever been, it is not now, and it never will be the place of authentic Christianity, to establish their beliefs and way of life by way of civil mandates upon all. This is the spirit of antichrist, not our Lord Jesus Christ, who never did and or called for such a thing. Nor did any of His apostles. This was the problem that highly educated reformers addressed concerning abusive power wielded by the Roman Catholic church, in calling for the freedom of all to be able to read the scriptures for themselves. Enabling adults to decide for themselves what they will believe regarding it, or even if they will believe it at all. Which is the God given right of every person. which is why an overwhelmingly Protestant population of peoples DECLARED -



This is exactly what Protestants and later what we consider Secular Humanists today did, in casting off the unbearable yoke of Roman Catholic intrusive and abusive rule. All of the above by the way, began to do so as Roman Catholics themselves, who were sick and tired of the Church and Royalty washing each others hands of the abuses they both committed against their own people. Not the least of which, was mandating their freedoms and liberties away. This is a no brainer for all and any who care to see the simple truth of the matter. So be it.

What you call freedom has devolved into unbridled humanism not Catholicism
Post reformation we see sexual revolution as has not been seen since Sodom. Even those that think themselves righteous mock the commandments of God as too burdensome. Chastity is a joke and impurity the rule, so much so that there are those that think nothing of saying Our Lord was part of an adulterous situation. It is no longer a simple thing to discern morality. We have pride run rampant so much so that Our Lords warnings against false prophets are ignored. That is not throwing off the yoke of Catholicism that is leaving the fold and going astray
I did not say that the translators were illiterate, rather they took advantage of an illiterate population ill equipped for their onslaught. They played to popular sentiment rather than a humble quest for truth
Prosperity and popularity are not marks of godly virtue. Our Lord says the opposite. He tells us that a servant is not greater than his master. They hated me, they will hate you also. The book of Acts tells us that it is through much suffering that we enter into life. Today we have charlatans who preach a “prosperity gospel”
Things that were done in the reformation were the opposite of Christian teaching, but it was crafty so much so as to deceive the very elect
Let’s look at the teaching
Our Lords says it is not for you to know the times and the seasons that the Fsther has fixed by His own authority. No one knows the day or hour when the Son of Man comes save the Father only. Reformers ignore this and try to tell people that they know the prophetic timetable, some even claim to know the exact time, when they get it wrong, they make something up
Many reformers deny that Jesus gave us His flesh and blood to literally eat and drink. They deny Christ gave us apostles to guide us and say we have to guide ourselves. Many reformers say we don’t have to do penance and we can never be free of sin, they say dont worry just believe. Scripture says that not everyone that says they believe will enter the kingdom of heaven, we will be judged by our works. How is it that scripture is affirmed and denied in the same breath? That is truly amazing

How is it throwing off the yoke of Catholicism aka Apostolic teaching actually done any good?

 

[Colo Millz]

We don’t celebrate it in the US, and I would also note the Wachowski Brothers in the film V for Vendetta did Roman Catholics a service by subverting that event and turning Guy Fawkes into a heroic figure for millennials.

Yes the Guy Fawkes mask has become an international symbol of protest movements.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Not clearly enough to prevent Arianism and Nestorianism and Sabellianism unfortunately. This is why Tradition is prescribed by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:2

Sadly a verse taken out of context. Has nothing to do with explaining the Godhead.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I was hoping for Scripture, not our own reasoning. Mary referred to Joseph as Jesus father Luke 2:48 there was an earthy father for Jesus and an earthy mother for Jesus. Jesus was 100% human and 100% God. Joseph and Mary were His human parents.

Having sex with your husband is not adultery. Not sure where you got that from.

I have read it and nothing remotely indicates the ark of the covenant is Mary.

Conjecture

Totally different situation and nothing about Mary being the ark


You are forgetting what God said was inside the Ark, not mary, but His own Testimony, the Ten Commandments.

Exo 24:16 And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.
Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

And it remains in heaven Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 as its the standard of God's judgment (His version, not mans) Rev 11:18-19 James 2:11, Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 Mat 5:19-30

We are told to live by every Word that God said, not what man says.

God already told us what is in the ark and Scripture explains what a women means

Eph 5: 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

A women in prophecy, represent a church, not Mary. There are two women in Revelation. The one clothed in light is the church clothed in God's righteousness. The Harlot, while it might seemingly have a godly presence, represents the apostate church.


In God's true church, they keep the commandments of God (His version) and faith and testimony of Jesus Rev 14:12 Rev 12:17 not the church who boldly claims they changed God's times and laws we are warned about. Dan 7:25 that sadly most churches (her daughters) followed, instead of staying faithful to God.





But you didn't quote Scripture, you added you own ideas to Scripture, which is not the same.

Pot kettle black

I provided you with scripture you just don’t believe it

Jesus is the living Word of God He was inside Mary. She is the Ark of the New Covenant

Why should I believe your interpretation when a plain reading tells me the truth?

 

[The Liturgist]

Sadly a verse taken out of context. Has nothing to do with explaining the Godhead.

I didn’t say it pertained to the Trinity.

 

[The Liturgist]

Why should I believe your interpretation when a plain reading tells me the truth?

The issue is that Adventists believe their interpretation is the plain reading.

What everyone needs to understand is there are multiple interpretations of Scripture, which is why everyone relies on external sources of interpretation, but some predatory pastors claim their preferred interpretation is the only possible one and anyone who says otherwise, even if they agree with that false pastor’s position, is simply trying to disobey the Scriptures, which is a dangerous manipulation and entirely false.

At any rate, because there are multiple interpretations, we have Tradition, which your church often calls the Magisterium, to guide us. And other denominations have their own replacement traditions such as the elaborate confessions of faith used by some.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes the Guy Fawkes mask has become an international symbol of protest movements.

Welcome to the forums sir! Being an Anglican in New York City would be a delight. Although I disagree with their liberal theology, which to be fair they aren’t as strident about as most Episcopal parishes including the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, I love St. Thomas Fifth Ave. for their excellent music program. They are one of the last Anglican churches with a traditional boys choir (in San Diego, the Anglican cathedral had one, but has struggled to restart it after Covid).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I didn’t say it pertained to the Trinity.

Why I said it was out of context as that is what my post was about.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I want to thank you for a well-articulated Scriptural defense of many of our beliefs concerning the Theotokos.

It is also definitely the case that it would have been immoral for the Blessed Virgin Mary to have relations with Joseph after having born a child of the Father by the Holy Spirit, even though the Holy Spirit in impregnating her did not do so through physical means but rather in a supernatural manner.

Some people incorrectly think of St. Joseph as the human father of Jesus Christ, but this is crypto-Adoptionism; that is to say, it is dangerously close to the belief of the Adoptionists who claimed that Christ was conceived and born in the ordinary way and then adopted as the Son of God due to his perfect virtue. There is also a hybrid of Nestorianism and Adoptionism wherein our Lord is fathered by Joseph according to His humanity. These ideas are inconsistent with Scripture in that it makes it clear that the Blessed Virgin Mary was a virgin at the time she became pregnant with Christ our True God. Thus St. Joseph was the adoptive human surrogate father of Christ our God, but both had in common God the unoriginate Father, the difference being St. Joseph was created by the Father whereas Christ was begotten by Him before all ages, begotten, not made, and like the Holy Spirit shares in the Divine Essence of the Father, having put on our humanity without change, confusion, separation or division.

You are too kind to me. I am but a man unworthy of life, but God loved me and gave himself for me. I did not come to this myself, but strongly argued against it for many years. God had mercy and showed me my error.
Mary is a great gift from God, as promised in Genesis 3:15. She is not God but knows God better than us as she bore him of her own flesh
She is to us as Rebecca was to Jacob. Scripture says to those disciples Jesus loves, behold thy mother.
I came to the knowledge of Mary through scripture and prayer. Just finished my total consecration to Jesus through Mary as described by St Louis de Monforte
God bless you and Totus tuus.

 

[The Liturgist]

Why I said it was out of context as that is what my post was about.

Your post claimed the Trinity is self-evident in Scripture, when really, it is implied, but people have from the same texts also been able to form warped interpretations like Sabellianism, Tritheism and Arianism. Sabellianism in particular requires the Creed to rule it out.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Pot kettle black

I provided you with scripture you just don’t believe it

Jesus is the living Word of God He was inside Mary. She is the Ark of the New Covenant

Why should I believe your interpretation when a plain reading tells me the truth?

Well I provided clear easy to understand Scripture on what is in God’s ark of the covenant.


Exo 40:20He took the Testimony and put it into the ark, inserted the poles through the rings of the ark, and put the mercy seat on top of the ark.
Exo 24:16 And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.
Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

God made the earthy temple as a miniature of His heavenly temple Heb 8:1-5 So no need to guess what is in it when Scripture tells us plainly,

Heb 9:4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;

His ark remains in heaven Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 as its the standard of God's judgment (His version, not mans) Rev 11:18-19 James 2:11, Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 Mat 5:19-30

What you presented was to read two chapters of Scripture that no where said God removed His Testimony, the Ten Commandments and it suddenly became Mary.

No Scripture says this

She is the Ark of the New Covenant

I think we ought to believe what God said plainly about what is in His ark. But I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

[Colo Millz]

Welcome to the forums sir! Being an Anglican in New York City would be a delight. Although I disagree with their liberal theology, which to be fair they aren’t as strident about as most Episcopal parishes including the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, I love St. Thomas Fifth Ave. for their excellent music program. They are one of the last Anglican churches with a traditional boys choir (in San Diego, the Anglican cathedral had one, but has struggled to restart it after Covid).

TY

Every day at lunchtime for a long time I went to Trinity Church Wall Street - not any more sadly.

I have only visited St. Thomas once and yes I heard the boys choir.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Your post claimed the Trinity is self-evident in Scripture, when really, it is implied, but people have from the same texts also been able to form warped interpretations like Sabellianism, Tritheism and Arianism. Sabellianism in particular requires the Creed to rule it out.

The Scriptures I posted about the Godhead is not implied.

 

[The Liturgist]

You are too kind to me. I am but a man unworthy of life

I am the worst of sinners, wracked with illness, and desire your prayers and those of Our Lady, for i trust in Christ to heal me in this life or deliver me from suffering in the life of the world to come.

 

[The Liturgist]

TY

Every day at lunchtime for a long time I went to Trinity Church Wall Street - not any more sadly.

I have only visited St. Thomas once and yes I heard the boys choir.

Yes sadly Trinity Wall Street is not what it used to be. Indeed they inadvertently caused the chaos of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

 

[Colo Millz]

Yes sadly Trinity Wall Street is not what it used to be. Indeed they inadvertently caused the chaos of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

I think you're referring to Trinity’s refusal to let the protesters from Zuccotti Park move to Trinity's owned nearby lot at Duarte Square, and the fallout from that?

That was after my time in the financial district.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The issue is that Adventists believe their interpretation is the plain reading.

It’s the best way of understanding God’s Word is allowing Him to explain through the plain reading of His Word. Sadly, most don’t like the plain reading of the Bible, why there are so many wild interpretations. God tells 90% of His Word plainly - the harder to understand Scripture is explained through His word. Why we are told not to lean on our own understandings Pro 3:5-6, and not to add to His word Pro 30:5-6 that will only lead us down another path - His word is to be the light to our path Psa 119:105 and when we don’t believe His word plainly, it leaves room for someone else to control our minds. The devil deceived 1/3 of the holy angels. Trusting and believing God’s word is what will safeguard us. Going away from His word, there is no light Isa 8:20

 

[Valletta]

As it turns out the understanding of

"One God" Deut 6:4 "in three Persons" Mat 28:19

is Scripture, not traditions.

It's not explicitly in Holy Scripture:
Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord RSVCE
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit RSVCE

We know the truth in my previous post because it was passed down through the Apostles and the popes in the Catholic Church.