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Evolution conflict and division

o_mlly

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Yes. Like a population.
I presume you do not define "population" different than "group"? OK?
Like if you had a population of fish, maybe you have some thousands of fish. And they interbreed.
I assume that in your example that the interbreeding is universally successful. And, therefore, all the some thousands of fish are the same species.
And they interbreed. But something happens, and then they stop interbreeding. Some subset separates from the group.
Does the separated subset in your example retain the potential to successfully interbreed for at least for some number of generations? If so then how many generations (numerically) until a new species emerges in the subset?
And so their DNA drifts apart ...
OK. So, the gene flow is geographically, at least temporarily, interrupted. So, since a creature's location in space and time is accidental and not essential to its species designation, species properties are not essential properties, ie., present in every individual at all times and in all places? If not essential then are those assigned properties arbitrary (vague)?
" ... all members of a species share a common “gene pool,” while different species remain distinct because they don’t (or can’t) regularly exchange genes. For example, all domestic dogs belong to one species because they can breed with each other ... while different species remain distinct because they don’t (or can’t) regularly exchange genes.
Can a female Chihuahua breed with a male Great Dane? But both are the same species ie., domestic dogs, right?

What I'm trying to show is that your "species" definition is not clear but rather vague.
I didn't have to resort to anything. You posting that you think grandparents and grandkids are an example of reproductive isolation exposed your ignorance of the subject (while you simultaneously think you know biology better than biologists). All I had to do was point at it.
Obviously, your hubris blinds you. And, your claiming to know what I think, serves to confirm that fact. Adios.
 
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Job 33:6

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I presume you do not define "population" different than "group"? OK?

I assume that in your example that the interbreeding is universally successful. And, therefore, all the some thousands of fish are the same species.
Speciation occurs at a population level. Not at an individual level. And that's an important detail. So it's not so much a matter of one person having a mutation and being sterile. Rather it's about a population that has a fixed mutation, that is isolated from the original. Of multiple mechanisms or means of speciation.

Does the separated subset in your example retain the potential to successfully interbreed for at least for some number of generations? If so then how many generations (numerically) until a new species emerges in the subset?
Isolated, is isolated. There is no going back. If there is still interbreeding going on, then they aren't isolated.

OK. So, the gene flow is geographically, at least temporarily, interrupted. So, since a creature's location in space and time is accidental and not essential to its species designation, species properties are not essential properties, ie., present in every individual at all times and in all places? If not essential then are those assigned properties arbitrary (vague)?
There are different types of speciation in how they occur, but I gave an example earlier of horses and donkeys. A conservative way of viewing the topic is, when interbreeding can no longer happen at a genetic level. Not necessarily just because of physical boundaries. Although physical boundaries can drive species to genetically diverge over time simply due to genetic drift.

Can a female Chihuahua breed with a male Great Dane? But both are the same species ie., domestic dogs, right?
You could artificially inseminate one breed with the sperm of another. And their offspring would not be sterile.

What I'm trying to show is that your "species" definition is not clear but rather vague.
That's why I use a more conservative option.

At some point, populations cannot interbreed, not just anatomically, but also at a genetic level. And the key isn't merely to understand the "label" of species.

But I will say, the vagueness is actually a strength of the theory of evolution. Because lines should be blurry where changes are microscopic. So I don't see this as a weakness anyhow.

The key is to understand what it means for a population to separate from its original population, and to essentially never return. It's not really about labels, so much as it is about watching populations diverge. They don't go backwards and rejoin. They drift apart, indefinitely.

The species label is really just our human attempt to draw a line across a process that in reality is gradual and ongoing. Populations split, diverge genetically, and, once they’re separated long enough, they can’t merge back, because the differences in their DNA, development, behavior, or ecology become too great. At first the boundaries are fuzzy, but over evolutionary time they harden into permanent isolation.

That’s why the vagueness isn’t a bug in the concept, but a reflection of evolution’s continuity: there’s no sharp edge where one species ends and another begins, only populations drifting apart. Once divergence passes a point of no return, the line becomes clearer.
 
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River Jordan

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Obviously, your hubris blinds you. And, your claiming to know what I think, serves to confirm that fact. Adios.
My hubris? Do you believe you know biology better than professional biologists?
 
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sfs

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My question on your depth in statistics came from reading your posts.
What in my posts prompts that reaction?
Can you share with us a few of your published simulations? I
Sure.
My first genetic simulations appeared in this paper: Human genome sequence variation and the influence of gene history, mutation and recombination - Nature Genetics, which provided the first evidence that recombination hotspots are a global feature of the human genome. It was where I learned (from David Reich) the basics of coalescent simulation. (At least I think that was the first -- it's long enough ago that details are now fuzzy.)

I did more extensive simulations for the paper reporting the first sequencing of the chimpanzee genome: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature04072.pdf

In the next paper (Calibrating a coalescent simulation of human genome sequence variation), I used simulations to generate the first semi-realistic model of human demographic history. The code from that one should still be available online.

The next paper (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature06250.pdf) was one of the first genome-wide scans for positive selection in the human genome; I again supplied the simulations, both of neutral and adaptive evolution, that were used throughout. And similarly for this paper, although by this time someone else may have been running the simulations using my code (I don't remember): https://www.science.org/doi/pdf/10.1126/science.1183863.

In this one I used a forward simulation approach rather than the coalescent: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1322563111

Here's a major revision of the coalescent code I used earlier: https://academic.oup.com/bioinformatics/article/30/23/3427/207410. Most of the implementation was done by Ilya under my supervision.

I could go on.
 
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o_mlly

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Speciation occurs at a population level. Not at an individual level. And that's an important detail. So it's not so much a matter of one person having a mutation and being sterile. Rather it's about a population that has a fixed mutation, that is isolated from the original. Of multiple mechanisms or means of speciation.
In the continuum of mutations at some iteration the genes of an individual are incompatible for reproduction, no?

Your phrase "fixed mutation" seems an oxymoron to me. Does the phrase imply that random mutations are not entirely random?

Am I correct to conclude that your concept of speciation is such that the occurrence can only be known ex post facto, and has, therefore, no predictive value? As to explanatory value, the species definition we're examining seems to be dependent on the theory rather than dependent on observations in nature which seems backwards. I agree that "[t]he species label is really just our human attempt to draw a line across a process."
Isolated, is isolated. There is no going back. If there is still interbreeding going on, then they aren't isolated
Does "[t]here is no going back" imply again that mutations are not entirely random? That creatures cannot adapt to reversed changes in environmental conditions, eg., another ice age? That the "junk" DNA is really just junk and does not hold the potential for mutations to adapt via natural selection?

I conclude that science does not discover species but invents them and does so arbitrarily (there are at least 20+ different concepts of species in the various disciplines).
You could artificially inseminate one breed with the sperm of another. And their offspring would not be sterile.
Such an act is not natural and w/o a designer, ie., man, could not happen due to the incompatibility of the two creatures' reproductive organs. So, no natural reproduction of fertile offspring and we have definitionally two species, no?

It seems from a philosophy of biology point of view that much work on species definitions is required. The notion of identifying species' specific properties, present in all, at all times, and places should be the goal of that definition, ie., nominal essences. I also see the difficutly in deriving that definition.

I cannot agree that "vagueness" is a strength. Precision is always a goal in the empirical sciences especailly those that employ mathematics to explain what has been obseerved and predict what will come to be.
 
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o_mlly

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What in my posts prompts that reaction?

Sure.
My first genetic simulations appeared in this paper: Human genome sequence variation and the influence of gene history, mutation and recombination - Nature Genetics, which provided the first evidence that recombination hotspots are a global feature of the human genome. It was where I learned (from David Reich) the basics of coalescent simulation. (At least I think that was the first -- it's long enough ago that details are now fuzzy.)

I did more extensive simulations for the paper reporting the first sequencing of the chimpanzee genome: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature04072.pdf

In the next paper (Calibrating a coalescent simulation of human genome sequence variation), I used simulations to generate the first semi-realistic model of human demographic history. The code from that one should still be available online.

The next paper (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature06250.pdf) was one of the first genome-wide scans for positive selection in the human genome; I again supplied the simulations, both of neutral and adaptive evolution, that were used throughout. And similarly for this paper, although by this time someone else may have been running the simulations using my code (I don't remember): https://www.science.org/doi/pdf/10.1126/science.1183863.

In this one I used a forward simulation approach rather than the coalescent: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1322563111

Here's a major revision of the coalescent code I used earlier: https://academic.oup.com/bioinformatics/article/30/23/3427/207410. Most of the implementation was done by Ilya under my supervision.

I could go on.
Very impressive list.

As to the topic of this thread, diversity of living creatures explained through secondary causes, to which the probability of speciation events would be critical, do any of your papers address and put forward such a simulation study? You have posted that the parameters of the study I cited are questionable. If so, what parameters would you employ in such a simulation to constrain the output? (I am still interested in the code one could employ to generate a random number.)

As this is a Christian only forum, may I assume you accept that God had some role in bringing about the diversity of life, but that mankind merely evolved from other animals, that abstract thinking evolved, that there were no first and only homo sapiens created directly by God?
 
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Job 33:6

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In the continuum of mutations at some iteration the genes of an individual are incompatible for reproduction, no?

Your phrase "fixed mutation" seems an oxymoron to me. Does the phrase imply that random mutations are not entirely random?
Fixed is the term used when a mutation goes beyond an individual and becomes integrated or ubiquitous into your sub population. When a mutation is no longer a novelty, but rather it is an established quality of the population. Like when a mutation is no longer just a unique or rare mutation, but rather it is a normal quality of the population. And so, speciation occurs at a population level. Otherwise you just have an individual with a quirky trait.

Am I correct to conclude that your concept of speciation is such that the occurrence can only be known ex post facto, and has, therefore, no predictive value? As to explanatory value, the species definition we're examining seems to be dependent on the theory rather than dependent on observations in nature which seems backwards. I agree that "[t]he species label is really just our human attempt to draw a line across a process."
Well, I believe I gave an example earlier in which a chromosome duplication resulted in speciation. That was an observed instance in nature.

Does "[t]here is no going back" imply again that mutations are not entirely random? That creatures cannot adapt to reversed changes in environmental conditions, eg., another ice age? That the "junk" DNA is really just junk and does not hold the potential for mutations to adapt via natural selection?
Evolution doesn’t really work in reverse. Mutations happen randomly, not with a goal in mind, and the chances of them undoing past mutations in the exact right way are astronomically low. On top of that, evolution isn’t just one change, but thousands of genetic changes layered over time, all interacting with each other. Even if one gene did mutate back, the rest of the genome and the environment have changed, so the old version probably wouldn’t even work the same way anymore. That’s why evolution is best pictured as a branching tree, once a branch splits, it doesn’t grow back together the same way.

I conclude that science does not discover species but invents them and does so arbitrarily (there are at least 20+ different concepts of species in the various disciplines).
Ok. Well I've offered an instance of chromosome duplication and reproductive isolation. You don't seem to like that, but there's nothing wrong with this observation and label as speciation.

Your response feels a bit like saying, “Department stores don’t discover new colors, they invent them arbitrarily, and there are dozens of ways to define color,” then shaking your fist at the Home Depot paint aisle. But the key point is that the colors exist, even if our labels aren’t perfect. Similarly, organisms are genetically and anatomically changing over time, regardless of how we define the moment a population becomes a new species.

So the debate about labels shouldn’t overshadow the observable reality: life changes, evolves, and diversifies. The underlying biological processes are real, even if our human terms are imperfect.

Such an act is not natural and w/o a designer, ie., man, could not happen due to the incompatibility of the two creatures' reproductive organs. So, no natural reproduction of fertile offspring and we have definitionally two species, no?
If their DNA allows for interbreeding and fertile offspring, regardless of if through artificial insemination or not, then no, they aren't different species.
It seems from a philosophy of biology point of view that much work on species definitions is required. The notion of identifying species' specific properties, present in all, at all times, and places should be the goal of that definition, ie., nominal essences. I also see the difficutly in deriving that definition.

I cannot agree that "vagueness" is a strength. Precision is always a goal in the empirical sciences especailly those that employ mathematics to explain what has been obseerved and predict what will come to be.
A goal, sure. But reality? Not by a long shot. The world of biology is far too complex to have perfect labels for every little molecular change. Although I agree that it would be nice if such a catalog of labels existed.
 
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o_mlly

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Fixed is the term used when a mutation goes beyond an individual and becomes integrated or ubiquitous into your sub population. When a mutation is no longer a novelty, but rather it is an established quality of the population. Like when a mutation is no longer just a unique or rare mutation, but rather it is a normal quality of the population. And so, speciation occurs at a population level. Otherwise you just have an individual with a quirky trait.
Absent the novelty of an "individual with a quirky trait", that quirky trait could not become the "established quality of the population", no?
Well, I believe I gave an example earlier in which a chromosome duplication resulted in speciation. That was an observed instance in nature.
Yes, you did. However, the example appears to me as a fallacious form of the affirming the consequent. The successful hybridization argues against the plants being separate species according to your definition. Do you have more examples to examine from sexual reproduction?
Evolution doesn’t really work in reverse. Mutations happen randomly, not with a goal in mind ...
If the mutations are random, ie., un-directed, then forward (beneficial) or reverse (harmful) directions are possible. For example, if a blindfolded driver enters an unfamiliar vehicle and attempts to put the vehicle into gear, the probability that he could engage reverse is no different than forward (cp).
So the debate about labels shouldn’t overshadow the observable reality: life changes, evolves, and diversifies. The underlying biological processes are real, even if our human terms are imperfect.
I do not debate the labels. Rather the logic that imposes our invented labels onto reality.
If their DNA allows for interbreeding and fertile offspring, regardless of if through artificial insemination or not, then no, they aren't different species.
Does not that argument defeat those speciation events claimed via "reproductive isolation"?
A goal, sure. But reality? Not by a long shot. The world of biology is far too complex to have perfect labels for every little molecular change. Although I agree that it would be nice if such a catalog of labels existed.
I would rather put it that reality is too complex for biology to perfectly label its dynamics. But we are by nature curious and desire to know the truth of things so we must continue the effort using evidence and reason.
 
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The Barbarian

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. non-human apes are capable of language. But there it is.
Yep. They can converse with humans, once they learn the language. Why would wild apes use human communication?

You mean why would apes use language.
No. Apes use language to communicate with humans. They become proficient in signing because they have ability tu use and understand language.

Anatomically modern humans have gone through many millions of mutations (micro events), but we are still a single species.

There's that multi-purpose "species" word again.
Yes, that's a huge problem for creationists. If creationism were true you'd see nice, precise species. But the reality shows all sorts of intermediate cases. Reproductive isolation, however, is very perceptible.

So what? My wife and I reproduced human beings isolated from our parents.
I'm sorry but that is soooooo funny!

Sometimes people ask me what it's like to interact with fundamentalist creationists and my usual answer is "You have to prepare yourself for weapons-grade Dunning-Kruger". And here it is. :rolleyes:
Well said. This is not typical of many creationists, BTW. I've argued with some who were very aware of biology.

Are you not a Christian?
First, I'm not a creationist. And second, even if I was, I could still also be a Christian.

Why would it anger you, if God chose to use nature to create living things? He specifically says that He did so in Genesis. Even Darwin supposed that God did it.
Who's angry?
You seem to be. Why does it bother you so much that God used nature in His creation of living things? Why not just let it be His way?

I don't think you're AI, unless they've managed to include anger as a feature. And even if you are AI, you're still serving a very useful purpose here.
 
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The Barbarian

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As this is a Christian only forum, may I assume you accept that God had some role in bringing about the diversity of life, but that mankind merely evolved from other animals, that abstract thinking evolved, that there were no first and only homo sapiens created directly by God?
The Bible says that the first humans were not produced ex nihilo. Only our souls are given directly by God. Why not just accept it the way He says He did it?
 
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o_mlly

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I once had a pair of reptilian leather boots -- tough skin. I couldn't wear them out but I got tired of them and threw them out ... three times. Somehow they just kept crawling back into my closet.
 
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Job 33:6

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Absent the novelty of an "individual with a quirky trait", that quirky trait could not become the "established quality of the population", no?
Sure. So, does the quirky trait exist? yes, we just refer to those as mutations. Or traits as a product of mutations.

Yes, you did. However, the example appears to me as a fallacious form of the affirming the consequent. The successful hybridization argues against the plants being separate species according to your definition. Do you have more examples to examine from sexual reproduction?
These plants do not successfully hybridize.

If the mutations are random, ie., un-directed, then forward (beneficial) or reverse (harmful) directions are possible. For example, if a blindfolded driver enters an unfamiliar vehicle and attempts to put the vehicle into gear, the probability that he could engage reverse is no different than forward (cp).
That's not what I'm saying. Forward and backwards is not about beneficial vs harmful. It's about probability.

Like if I roll dice, let's say I roll two sixes. Then two threes, then a five and a two.

When you keep rolling dice, the probability of being able to roll those same combinations perfectly in reverse order, becomes impossibly small.

That's what I mean by forward and backwards. I'm not referring to beneficial vs neutral or detrimental.

It is possible to roll dice and to get the numbers in a reverse order, but the probability is just extremely extremely low. Because you're talking about thousands of genes changing in a wide variety of ways. Like throwing countless dice. And not only that, but you're throwing those dice over billions of years.

So, if you could imagine, a sub population becomes reproductively isolated. It's going to go in a direction and it's not going to come back. It'll just gradually drift off to sea.

I do not debate the labels. Rather the logic that imposes our invented labels onto reality.
The mutations are the reality. And regardless of our labels, those mutations happen. Labels are not imposed, they're made in an effort to classify. Just like we do for colors. I can give labels to colors. But colors blend together perfectly well to the extent that labels will always break down. Like when does white become black? So we've invented "gray". And that's what we do with every color. We invent countless names. But they all break down under scrutiny. But we use general names anyway to help classify. Not because we are imposing. We are just observing and classifying.

Does not that argument defeat those speciation events claimed via "reproductive isolation"?
No. Why would it? If they can reproduce through artificial insemination, then they aren't reproductively isolated. Because, though artificial, they can still reproduce.

Contrast that with artificial insemination of a giraffe with an elephant. They can't reproduce. The artificial aspect is not the determining factor.

What matters is whether, in principle, they’re genetically compatible and part of a continuous interbreeding network.

I would rather put it that reality is too complex for biology to perfectly label its dynamics. But we are by nature curious and desire to know the truth of things so we must continue the effort using evidence and reason.

Sure.
 
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o_mlly

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Sure. So, does the quirky trait exist? yes, we just refer to those as mutations. Or traits as a product of mutations.
Perhaps I did not express my point well.

The quirky trait is only considered "quirky" if it exist in the one. If the trait is beneficial and comes to exist in the many then we dismiss the "quirky" adjective and replace it with "ordinary". But the point is that the group cannot achieve that trait unless an individual introduces the trait to the group. So, "speciation" begins at the individual level.
When they grew together, hybrids formed ... These plants do not successfully hybridize.
?
That's not what I'm saying. Forward and backwards is not about beneficial vs harmful. It's about probability.
Yes, however I qualified those movements as being equivalent to beneficial or harmful to stay in context.
Like if I roll dice, let's say I roll two sixes. Then two threes, then a five and a two.

When you keep rolling dice, the probability of being able to roll those same combinations perfectly in reverse order, becomes impossibly small.
I don't think so. Mutations are independent events. That is, subsequent mutations in the same sample space occur independently from prior ones with the same probability of being beneficial or harmful or neutral.
So, if you could imagine, a sub population becomes reproductively isolated. It's going to go in a direction and it's not going to come back. It'll just gradually drift off to sea.
Or not. Evolution theory denies that mutations are directed.
The mutations are the reality. And regardless of our labels, those mutations happen.
Agree.
Labels are not imposed, they're made in an effort to classify.
The imposition occurs when the evolutionists use their invented labels as if those inventions are real and use fallacious reasoning from that error.
For example, I invent this label as a new species -- "NewWeed".

Then I form the argument:
"If macro-evolution is true then new species will be identified."
"I identified the NewWeed species."
"Therefore, macro-evolution is true."

If they can reproduce through artificial insemination, then they aren't reproductively isolated.
I don't think your consequent follows from your conditional.

The truth value of a conditional statement is the same as its contrapositive.
"If they are reproductively isolated then they cannnot reproduce through artificial insemination."

Artificial is not natural. A third agent is, therefore, involved and can transport the sperm to the egg.
Contrast that with artificial insemination of a giraffe with an elephant. They can't reproduce. The artificial aspect is not the determining factor.
I agree that artificial means supplants natural means. However, if the potential to successfully reproduce naturally exists in the two groups spatially and temporarily separated then I do not see the logical consistency of identifying a new species under your definition. It would seem your definition of "reproductively isolated" must also imply "forever". And, we cannot observe the future.

Thank you for the exchange.
 
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The Barbarian

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I don't think so. Mutations are independent events. That is, subsequent mutations in the same sample space occur independently from prior ones with the same probability of being beneficial or harmful or neutral.
Actually, "benificial", "harmful", or "neutral" are only meaningful in context of environment. And where environment changes quickly, it changes how evluion proceeds.

And mutations aren't as independent as once thought:

Or not. Evolution theory denies that mutations are directed.
Don't see that in Darwin's theory. Which theory are you thinking of?

or example, I invent this label as a new species -- "NewWeed".

Then I form the argument:
"If macro-evolution is true then new species will be identified."
"I identified the NewWeed species."
"Therefore, macro-evolution is true."
First, we'd have to confirm reproductive isolation. Then it would be macroevolution.

And reproductive isolation is more interesting and complicated than you seem to think. Here's an understandable article on the subject with citations from the literature.
Reproductive isolation - Wikipedia
 
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The Barbarian

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I agree that artificial means supplants natural means. However, if the potential to successfully reproduce naturally exists in the two groups spatially and temporarily separated then I do not see the logical consistency of identifying a new species under your definition. It would seem your definition of "reproductively isolated" must also imply "forever". And, we cannot observe the future.
Doesn't have to do so. For example, two closely-related species might be completely infertile with each other, but future mutations might change that condition and result in a single species.

It works the other way, too. Leopard frogs in North America are a single species. But the frogs at the northern end of the range can't interbreed with frogs at the southern end of the range. But both can mate with intermediately-locatedf frogs. Should those intermediate populations go extinct, there become two species.

It's all about populations. And populations are dynamic, changing and developing things. It would be a lot simpler if God just poofed each species into existence with hard boundaries between them. But that's not how He did it.

I can only assume He knew best.
 
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Job 33:6

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Perhaps I did not express my point well.

The quirky trait is only considered "quirky" if it exist in the one. If the trait is beneficial and comes to exist in the many then we dismiss the "quirky" adjective and replace it with "ordinary". But the point is that the group cannot achieve that trait unless an individual introduces the trait to the group. So, "speciation" begins at the individual level.

?
Yea that's a fine way to put it. Every species begins with an individual. But they aren't technically a new species until the trait of an individual reaches normalcy in a sub population. As an individual, it's just an individual.

I don't think so. Mutations are independent events. That is, subsequent mutations in the same sample space occur independently from prior ones with the same probability of being beneficial or harmful or neutral.

Rolling dice are independent events too. But that doesn't mean that the odds of reversing course and rolling precisely the same rolls in reverse is probable.

I can roll a 1, and I'll have a daily decent chance of rolling a 1 again. But to rewind the clock and to roll 1s two more times, would be less likely.

I guess we can do a math lesson.

The chance of rolling a 1 once =

1/6 ≈ 16.7%.

The chance of rolling a 1 twice in a row =
1/6 * 1/6 or 1/36. Or 2.8%

The chance of rolling a 1 three times in a row =
1/6 * 1/6*1/6 or 1/216 or ≈ 0.46%.

So:
Each individual roll always has the same chance (about 16.7%).

But when you require a sequence of multiple 1s in a row, the probability gets smaller each time you add another requirement.

The same goes for evolution. If it's just one mutation, you'll have a higher probability of a back mutation. But if you're talking about billions of years of countless mutations, for practical purposes, the probabilities are so incredibly low, that there is no going back.

Or not. Evolution theory denies that mutations are directed.
Dice are random too, but the sequences you roll, don't go backwards. As noted above.

The imposition occurs when the evolutionists use their invented labels as if those inventions are real and use fallacious reasoning from that error.
For example, I invent this label as a new species -- "NewWeed".
New weed? I don't see anything problematic about identifying a horse and donkey as separate species on the basis that they don't interbreed.

Then I form the argument:
"If macro-evolution is true then new species will be identified."
"I identified the NewWeed species."
"Therefore, macro-evolution is true."
Scientists don't use the term "macro" evolution. There is only evolution. But if there ever was a way to classify such a thing taxonomically, it could only be evolution of one species to another because that's the only way evolution occurs.

But it is fair to say, if evolution is true, then we should see new species arising, not merely being identified. And so it is, objectively, with respect to reproductively isolated populations as a product of mutation.


I don't think your consequent follows from your conditional.

The truth value of a conditional statement is the same as its contrapositive.
"If they are reproductively isolated then they cannnot reproduce through artificial insemination."

Artificial is not natural. A third agent is, therefore, involved and can transport the sperm to the egg.

I agree that artificial means supplants natural means. However, if the potential to successfully reproduce naturally exists in the two groups spatially and temporarily separated then I do not see the logical consistency of identifying a new species under your definition. It would seem your definition of "reproductively isolated" must also imply "forever". And, we cannot observe the future.
The requirement isn’t to prove reproductive isolation “forever,” but to recognize when, in practice, the barrier is real and irreversible. For example, chromosome duplication in plants creates instant genetic incompatibility: even when the two forms live in the same place at the same time, they cannot interbreed. That’s not about geographic separation but about a biological barrier that prevents gene flow.

Species concepts are practical tools, not prophecies about the infinite future. Of course, in theory, one might imagine a one-in-a-gazillion chance of elephants and giraffes producing offspring someday, but biology works with observable reality and realistic probabilities. When two populations cannot reproduce now, and all evidence suggests the barrier is stable, we treat them as separate species.
 
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o_mlly

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Yea that's a fine way to put it. Every species begins with an individual. But they aren't technically a new species until the trait of an individual reaches normalcy in a sub population. As an individual, it's just an individual.
I assume by "trait" you mean not behavioral but anatomical. And, in most instances, this new anatomical trait occurs gradually in the fossil record. So, this anatomical difference is in degree and not in kind. That is micro-evolution with which no one disagrees.

When some unspecified frequency n of these micro-evolutionary anatomical change events appear in the population then evolutionists claim a macro-evolution event and name a new "species", a new kind of creature. But the "new" creature is not different in kind.
I guess we can do a math lesson.
Wrong lesson. You're using the wrong math. Bayesian-like statistical analysis does not apply to events disconnected from prior events. The probabliltiy of the next mutation from the same gene pool is disconnected from the probability of that gene pool's prior mutation (cp). You're welcome.
Scientists don't use the term "macro" evolution.
That's incorrect.


Macroevolution describes evolutionary change that occurs at or above the species level.
But if there ever was a way to classify such a thing taxonomically, it could only be evolution of one species to another because that's the only way evolution occurs.

But it is fair to say, if evolution is true, then we should see new species arising, not merely being identified. And so it is, objectively, with respect to reproductively isolated populations as a product of mutation.
? You did not address the logical fallacy I presented, ie., affirming the consequent.
The requirement isn’t to prove reproductive isolation “forever,” but to recognize when, in practice, the barrier is real and irreversible.
? Claiming a situation is irreversible is to claim that that is so forever.
For example, chromosome duplication in plants creates instant genetic incompatibility: even when the two forms live in the same place at the same time, they cannot interbreed.
That claim seems again to be proven wrong with your own example of a macroevolution event, no?
Species concepts are practical tools, not prophecies about the infinite future. Of course, in theory, one might imagine a one-in-a-gazillion chance of elephants and giraffes producing offspring someday, but biology works with observable reality and realistic probabilities. When two populations cannot reproduce now, and all evidence suggests the barrier is stable, we treat them as separate species.

From the above, we can say that expressions regarding "species" as natural facts is incorrect. At best, "speciation" is man's speculation based on limited and fallible evidence and reason.
 
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The Barbarian

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I assume by "trait" you mean not behavioral but anatomical.
Traits can be behavioral. And they are open to selection, just as anatomical traits.

And, in most instances, this new anatomical trait occurs gradually in the fossil record. So, this anatomical difference is in degree and not in kind.
Sort of the way we see that the Atlantic Ocean grew from a crack in the crust to the huge ocean it is today. By your argument, it's a small change in the Earth. Huge changes that happen slowly are still huge changes.

When some unspecified frequency n of these micro-evolutionary anatomical change events appear in the population then evolutionists claim a macro-evolution event and name a new "species", a new kind of creature. But the "new" creature is not different in kind.
Speciation is merely reproductive isolation. The amount of change that causes this to happen doesn't matter. You're still having trouble with the idea of speciation.

? You did not address the logical fallacy I presented, ie., affirming the consequent.
Bottom line, speciation is a fact. Science depends on confirming predictions of theories. Hence, if evolution is true, we will see allele frequencies changing in living populations. And we do see this, confirming evolution. Because evolution is defined as a change in allele frequencies in living populations. Macroevolution is evolution that produces new kinds of populations. Since speciation is a fact, and is due to evolution (remember what evolution is), macroevolution is confirmed.
 
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Job 33:6

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I assume by "trait" you mean not behavioral but anatomical. And, in most instances, this new anatomical trait occurs gradually in the fossil record. So, this anatomical difference is in degree and not in kind. That is micro-evolution with which no one disagrees.
The theory of evolution only suggests changes in degree. That is, by small steps that accumulate through time.


When some unspecified frequency n of these micro-evolutionary anatomical change events appear in the population then evolutionists claim a macro-evolution event and name a new "species", a new kind of creature. But the "new" creature is not different in kind.

Evolution occurs at a species to species level. Or by speciation. The theory never suggests anything otherwise. Just small changes that over millions of years, accumulate.

Wrong lesson. You're using the wrong math. Bayesian-like statistical analysis does not apply to events disconnected from prior events. The probabliltiy of the next mutation from the same gene pool is disconnected from the probability of that gene pool's prior mutation (cp). You're welcome.
Evolutionary change through time is not done by events disconnected from prior events. Because future mutations involve a genome that retains past mutations.

That's incorrect.


Macroevolution describes evolutionary change that occurs at or above the species level.
Ok. Fine. Then it is observed.

? You did not address the logical fallacy I presented, ie., affirming the consequent.

? Claiming a situation is irreversible is to claim that that is so forever.
In practical terms. I already gave the analogy with rolling dice.

And I don't see any logical fallacies here. If we define macro evolution as evolution at a species level, then if it is observed, then that's simply what it is, by definition.

That claim seems again to be proven wrong with your own example of a macroevolution event, no?
That is my example. How can my example prove itself wrong?

From the above, we can say that expressions regarding "species" as natural facts is incorrect. At best, "speciation" is man's speculation based on limited and fallible evidence and reason.

Speciation is just reproductive isolation as a product of mutation and descent with modification. And that's just a reality and fact of nature. So I'm not sure what there is to speculate on here.
 
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Job 33:6

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Let’s look at this alleged logical fallacy.

Argument:
"If macroevolution is true, then new species will be identified.
I identified the NewWeed species.
Therefore, macroevolution is true."


In logical form:
If P (macroevolution is true), then Q (new species will arise).
Q.
Therefore P.

That’s affirming the consequent. If that concerns you, we can reframe it.

Evolution is a scientific theory, not a proof. Observing new species arising through mutation, selection, or polyploidy is evidence consistent with evolutionary theory. Among available explanations, evolution is the best scientific account we have for why and how new species form. Scientific theories aren’t logical proofs, they’re the best explanations, always open to refinement.

Alternatively, if we define macroevolution simply as evolutionary change at or above the species level (speciation), then the “fallacy” disappears:

If P (speciation is true), then Q (new species will arise).
Q (new species are observed to arise).
Therefore P (speciation is true).

That isn’t a fallacy, it’s just observation.

If P (I make a sandwich), then Q (I assemble bread with fillings).
Q (I assembled bread with fillings).
Therefore P (I made a sandwich).

If the terms mean the same thing, then there is no fallacy. There is only observation.
 
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