American boys have become less supportive of gender equality (i.e. men and women should receive equal job opportunities and pay)

[essentialsaltes]

There is nothing wrong with traditional gender roles.

As far as that goes, no. But if 'a woman's place is in the home' leads to 'discriminating against women who work outside the home', then it's a problem.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I thought the graph mentioned 8th-10th grade, not age 8-10.

14-17 year olds in those grades are most certainly watching streaming content.

You're right - I misread. That said, I think my point still applies. Kids are getting fed this sort of content from a very young age because parents are treating Youtube/streaming services as babysitters and not monitoring what their kids are watching. It doesn't even need to be universal - you just need a critical mass before an idea becomes endemic in a group. By the time they're in 8th-10th grade (which I would consider to be 12-16; people typically turn 16 during their sophomore year, while someone with a fall birthday might still be 12 when they start 8th grade), they've spent several years being indoctrinated and are not really capable of expressing informed opinions on the subject.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

There are aspects that exist in multiple "waves"

But it depends on the context in which it's being discussed.

Earlier forms of feminism would discuss the topic in the more pragmatic sense of "if 2 people are literally performing the exact same task and both achieving the same satisfactory result, then they deserve identical pay"

The postmodern theory would discuss it more in terms of "even if one person is clearly performing the task better than the other person, that doesn't really matter, society still has a duty to pay the other person just as much if they're in a marginalized group, because there are certain systemic barriers and imbalances we need to correct for"


Or more plainly
"Jane is performing the same task as Tom, and just as well, so Jane should make just as much as Tom" (merit-based fairness-focused)
vs.
"The task, and how well it's performed, are secondary... We need to make sure Jane makes just as much because historically, Jane comes from a group that has been marginalized by the group that Tom is a member of" (equity-focused)

It seems they have asked the same question since 1990, and the numbers were appalling even back then. Those who find religion important seems to be more impacted by postmodern feminism than those who doesn't find religion important, is that also explained by your idea? How many of the salaries in the US job market are set with equity-focus? Because, I would not guess that it is very many.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It seems they have asked the same question since 1990, and the numbers were appalling even back then. Those who find religion important seems to be more impacted by postmodern feminism than those who doesn't find religion important, is that also explained by your idea? How many of the salaries in the US job market are set with equity-focus? Because, I would not guess that it is very many.

According to the article, it's an interesting set of factors that seem to have a higher overlap.

For instance, they mention that the decrease is happening regardless of social media usage, regardless of dating activity, regardless of whether or not there's a father in the home, and is actually declining less for young males who watch less video content.

So it would seem that the "incels, with no male role models in the home, hanging out in social media echo chambers" might not be the major culprit that people once assumed.


The two aspects that were associated with a sharper drop off in feminist views were
- Having college educated mothers
- Saying that religion is important in their life


So it's quite possible that there's two things happening at once.

There could be some in the "indoctrination" column, and some others in the "backlash" column.


And for some, "backlash" may even be too strong a word to use. For the association they found pertaining to college educated mothers, there could be a few different aspects at play.

Depending on the type of college educated mother, it could be either
A) if they see their mother playing the role of "boss lady" all the time and either insulting, ordering around, or emasculating their father, that can shape perceptions in a negative direction

or

B) if they observe their friends with stay-at-home moms having a mother who's more engaged in the lives of their children and more "available" rather than heavily career focused mom who skips the soccer game for a work project, or spends half of their b-day party out in the hallway on a conference call, that can create some perceptions as well.


Here's an interesting wrinkle...

Gen Z boys' attitudes to feminism are more nuanced than negative, survey suggests

Young men are more likely than older men to think that feminism has done more harm than good, according to a new survey, suggesting a backward step in attitudes to gender equality. Young women aged 16-29 are also slightly more likely than women aged 30–59 to say that feminism has done more harm...

phys.org

That slip among adolescent young adult attitudes towards feminism isn't just on the male side of the fence.

Young women aged 16-29 are also more likely than women aged 30–59 to say that feminism has done more harm than good.

It'd be interesting to know if the same two associative factors (religion and college educated mothers) present for that young women cohort as well.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

For instance, they mention that the decrease is happening regardless of social media usage, regardless of dating activity, regardless of whether or not there's a father in the home, and is actually declining less for young males who watch less video content.

That's interesting, though I note that the survey just looks at how much social media/video content they're consuming, not the nature of that content. The article notes that the hypothesis that the "manosphere" and internet subcultures are responsible for the shift isn't confirmed by the survey, but neither does the survey reject the hypothesis. A relatively small amount of "significant" social media or video content could easily be enough to teach negative attitudes about women. Also consider the impact of audio content like podcasts, which don't appear to be addressed. While many podcasts are available as videos, that's not necessarily how they are consumed.

Depending on the type of college educated mother, it could be either
A) if they see their mother playing the role of "boss lady" all the time and either insulting, ordering around, or emasculating their father, that can shape perceptions in a negative direction

or

B) if they observe their friends with stay-at-home moms having a mother who's more engaged in the lives of their children and more "available" rather than heavily career focused mom who skips the soccer game for a work project, or spends half of their b-day party out in the hallway on a conference call, that can create some perceptions as well.

or

C) Lack of parental engagement means that parents are less likely to recognize and correct anti-social behavior in their kids.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Lack of parental engagement means that parents are less likely to recognize and correct anti-social behavior in their kids.

That's quite possible...


Also, another possibility is something I referenced a little earlier, which is that it could be as simplistic as some of these younger males seeing "single-faceted" feminism in action, and seeing the unfairness in it.

When discourse tends to follow the pattern of "absolute equality for the all the good stuff", but then still expecting the chivalrous aspects associated with "the patriarchy", it won't take long before some younger males pick up on that.

...and that's been going on for a while. Where people having the "same job" isn't really the same job.

If Tom and Emily both work at the store, and every time there's some heavy boxes to move, or the sidewalk out front needs shoveled, or it's 11pm at night and time to collect the carts out of the parking lot, it's going to be Tom who's asked those do those things.

If Tom says "I did it last time, it's Emily's turn to do it this time", -- that would be considered to be "in poor taste" to even suggest... however, it'd still be perfectly acceptable for someone to say "We're not going to make Emily try to lift those boxes, they're heavy, and it's 11pm and dark out, we don't want to send her out into a dark parking lot at night, Tom... you go do it"

Come pay day, if Tom says "well, even though we have the same title, I get stuck being the one to do these other things nobody ever makes her do, I should get paid more than her" -- then Tom is considered a male chauvinist.

If the store creates two positions to try to account for those differences (Clerk I and Clerk II), and the Clerk II pays 10% more, and most of the Clerk II's end up being males, and most of the Clerk I's end up being females -- then it gets viewed as an "institutional sexism problem" because "all of the higher positions are dominated by males"

 

[Chesterton]

Well I'm not as knowledgeable as a 12 y.o. boy, but I do deny that females should have opportunities everywhere. I've seen enough to know that they should not be cops, and they should not be soldiers. I would also call for the abolition of the WNBA, but the free market will eventually take care of that. According to AI:

The WNBA has never generated a profit in its nearly 30-year history and currently loses about $50 million each year. Despite growing revenues, the league relies on financial support from the NBA to sustain its operations. ​

 

[Tropical Wilds]

America drifting listlessly towards fundamental Islamic views on women.

Bodily rights for women are already under attack with prison sentences or risk of death.

America really is becoming the land of the straight male WASP.

I’m hoping it’s a temporary blip brought on by the current climate that is emboldening the “us vs them, I’m a man, I’m the leader and everything I say is both important and right” crowd.

And I will say that on the flip side to this, I’ve seen more women than ever stand up to guys that think that way. I myself censor myself less and represent myself as I am more now, partially because of my age and comfort with myself, but also because I feel were able to in a way we haven’t been in the past. At some point, the boys will realize the women aren’t going to adjust for them simply because they’re male and have an opinion on how women should be. Either they will grow into good men or stay as boys and be left out.

Goodness knows, I wish I had been more like I am now back in the day… It would have saved me a lot of hassle. Like… A life changing amount of hassle.

 

[RileyG]

As far as that goes, no. But if 'a woman's place is in the home' leads to 'discriminating against women who work outside the home', then it's a problem.

Not to mention, both parents usually need to work in today’s economy.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

When discourse tends to follow the pattern of "absolute equality for the all the good stuff", but then still expecting the chivalrous aspects associated with "the patriarchy", it won't take long before some younger males pick up on that.

That's not something that the average 12-16-year-old will have experienced, so it wouldn't have any bearing on the survey results.

...and that's been going on for a while. Where people having the "same job" isn't really the same job.

If Tom and Emily both work at the store, and every time there's some heavy boxes to move, or the sidewalk out front needs shoveled, or it's 11pm at night and time to collect the carts out of the parking lot, it's going to be Tom who's asked those do those things.

Sure, and Emily probably gets stuck cleaning the bathroom and doing other things that Tom might not want to do. Having "the same job" doesn't always mean doing precisely the same tasks. Some things are easier if you're strong, somethings are easier if you have small hands, etc. Those aren't gender-specific traits, even if they do tend to lean one way or the other. I've worked retail before, and the crap jobs that no one wants to do get split up pretty evenly.

 

[RileyG]

American boys have become less supportive of gender equality​

A survey of 8th and 10th graders shows a sharp drop in the percent of boys who believe that women should have the same opportunities as men​

The long-running Monitoring the Future study has been surveying 8th and 10th graders since 1991, and shows a sharp drop in the proportion of 8th and 10th graders that believe in gender equality in the last five years.

In 2018, 84% of 8th and 10th grade boys agreed that women should have the same job opportunities as men. But in the last five years, the number dropped to 72%. The proportion of boys who completely agreed (as opposed to “mostly agree”) saw an even steeper drop, from 63% to 45%.

The share of boys agreeing that women deserve equal pay also fell from 87% in 2018 to 79% in 2023. The share who agreed completely fell from 72% to 57%.

[Many variables that you might think are correlated don't seem to be, or not very strongly -- use of social media, dad-in-the-home or not, video games (in fact, "it was the non-gamers who had the largest decreases in beliefs in gender equality since 2018.")]

However, one correlation stood out.

View attachment 369546

[Oops maybe I shouldn't have cropped it so tightly, but the left edge of the graphs starts in 1990.]

Maybe they will change their mind when they get older and get more life experience?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Sure, and Emily probably gets stuck cleaning the bathroom and doing other things that Tom might not want to do. Having "the same job" doesn't always mean doing precisely the same tasks. Some things are easier if you're strong, somethings are easier if you have small hands, etc. Those aren't gender-specific traits, even if they do tend to lean one way or the other. I've worked retail before, and the crap jobs that no one wants to do get split up pretty evenly.

The "split up evenly" wasn't the experience I had at my first two jobs (one was a grocery store, the other was a warehouse)

But my personal anecdotes aside, if we just look at broader data.

On the spectrum of
"Crappy/dirty/dangerous/Physically Demanding jobs" <-> "Cushy C-suite positions with six-figures and playing golf with clients jobs"

Men are overrepresented at both ends of the bell curve, but every conversation about "fixing underrepresentation" is almost always exclusively centered around the latter.

As I've heard it phrased "always focused on the boardroom and never on the boiler-room"

So we've all heard the "Women only account for 10% of CEOs and only 25% of C-level positions despite being half the population" ad nauseum...

But nobody ever talks about underrepresentation of women in the contexts of:
94% of plumbers are men
97% of roofers are men
96% of oil workers are men
92% of general construction laborers are men

(whereas, when you look at the jobs dominated by women currently, they're mostly more "comfortable" mid-range positions (with the exception of nursing which is obviously a very difficult job that isn't for someone with a weak stomach)


In essence, that comes across as "we want equality at the top end...but you men-folk can keep doing the stuff that involves copious amounts of feces, getting dirty, or sweating on a hot roof in the middle of summer"

 

[RocksInMyHead]

As I've heard it phrased "always focused on the boardroom and never on the boiler-room"

So we've all heard the "Women only account for 10% of CEOs and only 25% of C-level positions despite being half the population" ad nauseum...

But nobody ever talks about underrepresentation of women in the contexts of:
94% of plumbers are men
97% of roofers are men
96% of oil workers are men
92% of general construction laborers are men

You can really only talk about underrepresentation if women are applying for those jobs. I do see the women who do try to get into those male-dominated blue-collar fields complain about the lack of representation (and the absolutely horrid treatment that they're subjected to by their colleagues), but because so few even try, they're easy to miss.

(whereas, when you look at the jobs dominated by women currently, they're mostly more "comfortable" mid-range positions (with the exception of nursing which is obviously a very difficult job that isn't for someone with a weak stomach)

Female-dominated fields are typically less physical (though tell that to my radiological tech friend who has to roll, lift, and drag non-responsive obese people around all day every day), but that doesn't necessarily mean they're easy or "comfortable."

1. Healthcare: Already discussed.
2. Personal care/service: hairdressers, nail techs, massage therapists, etc. Pay is typically terrible, you're on your feet all day, can be surprisingly physical.
3. Education/training/library: generally low pay, and only a fool says teaching is easy or comfortable
4. Office administration/support: comfortable and easy, but again, generally low-paying
5. Food prep/serving: low pay, not comfortable or easy
6. Legal: comfortable, easy, generally good pay

Of those, I would only say that office admin and legal are comfortable mid-range positions. Everything else is either hard, pays like crap, or both.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You can really only talk about underrepresentation if women are applying for those jobs. I do see the women who do try to get into those male-dominated blue-collar fields complain about the lack of representation (and the absolutely horrid treatment that they're subjected to by their colleagues), but because so few even try, they're easy to miss.

Female-dominated fields are typically less physical (though tell that to my radiological tech friend who has to roll, lift, and drag non-responsive obese people around all day every day), but that doesn't necessarily mean they're easy or "comfortable."

View attachment 369576

1. Healthcare: Already discussed.
2. Personal care/service: hairdressers, nail techs, massage therapists, etc. Pay is typically terrible, you're on your feet all day, can be surprisingly physical.
3. Education/training/library: generally low pay, and only a fool says teaching is easy or comfortable
4. Office administration/support: comfortable and easy, but again, generally low-paying
5. Food prep/serving: low pay, not comfortable or easy
6. Legal: comfortable, easy, generally good pay

Of those, I would only say that office admin and legal are comfortable mid-range positions. Everything else is either hard, pays like crap, or both.

Employed persons by detailed occupation, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity

Employed persons by detailed occupation, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity

www.bls.gov

Here's a more complete list

If you download the csv file, it's tab 11, and then it makes it easier to sort

If we set the threshold of "female dominated" at 75%+, there's a plethora of jobs listed that are both "comfortable" (meaning not being subjected extreme weather elements, not touching bodily fluids, not physically demanding etc...) and that have pay that's respectable for the task.

Omitting the secretarial work, food service industry, nursing, and cosmetology stuff that you mentioned, I'm still seeing these...

Speech-language pathologists
Audiologists
Skincare specialists
Dental hygienists
Dietitians and nutritionists
Medical records specialists
Dental assistants
Payroll administrators
Phlebotomists
Occupational therapists
Travel agents
Billing specialists
Veterinary technicians
Healthcare social workers
Bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing managers
School psychologists
Social workers, all
Animal trainers
Respiratory therapists
Interior designers
Court, municipal, and license clerks
Paralegals and legal assistants
Therapists, all other
Diagnostic medical sonographers
Child, family, and school social workers
Pharmacy technicians
Insurance claims and policy adjusters
Information and record clerks, all other
File Clerks
Tailors, dressmakers, and sewers
Educational, guidance, and career counselors and advisors
Eligibility interviewers, government programs
Human resources managers
Human resources workers
Meeting, convention, and event planners
Title examiners, abstractors, and searchers



Keeping in mind, some of the male-dominated positions I mentioned aren't exactly rolling in the dough, roofers around here make about 22-24 bucks an hour, that's not exactly glamourous pay considering you're getting skin cancer from being in the sun all day and lugging 80 pound bags of shingles up a ladder to work in the heat all day.

When you consider the median wages (throwing out the extremely high earners that throw off the numbers), they're not that far apart... and that difference is diminished even more by the "STEM-factor"

A lot of that male advantage is thanks to STEM fields. According to the BLS, STEM workers on average make 30-35% more than non-STEM workers, and STEM happens to be about 70% male.

There has been a concerted effort to get more girls interested in STEM fields, but to not much avail. And that one hasn't been a "barrier" thing, as much as it is an "I'm not interested in that" thing.

And it's not just an American phenomenon... even in the Scandinavian countries (that are much more progressive and egalitarian than we are), women only account for about a quarter of people in those fields.

There's not much we can do about that one. If we know the tech and engineering jobs pay better, but there's one cohort of people that express way more interest in it than another... we can't chalk the difference in pay outcomes to an "ism"

 

[RocksInMyHead]

If we set the threshold of "female dominated" at 75%+, there's a plethora of jobs listed that are both "comfortable" (meaning not being subjected extreme weather elements, not touching bodily fluids, not physically demanding etc...) and that have pay that's respectable for the task.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There are 354 jobs on that list (once we remove the category headers and filter out the ones with no data). Of those 354 job categories, 97 have more than 75% men and 68 have more than 75% women. Both of those groupings include plenty of "gross" or "difficult" jobs and plenty of comfortable jobs. If we want to cherry pick off the men's list, there's:

Computer numerically controlled tool operators and programmers
Computer network architects
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Computer, automated teller, and office machine repairers
Construction managers
Aerospace engineers
Architectural and engineering managers
Mechanical engineers
Construction and building inspectors
Electrical and electronics engineers
Precision instrument and equipment repairers
Computer hardware engineers
Engineers, all other
Network and computer systems administrators
Civil engineers
Computer programmers
Information security analysts
Motor vehicle operators, all other
Cost estimators
Software developers
Other drafters
Chemical engineers
Other engineering technologists and technicians, except drafters
Chefs and head cooks
Surveying and mapping technicians
Industrial production managers
Industrial engineers, including health and safety
Computer occupations, all other
Parts salespersons

Also, if you think that dental hygienists, dental assistants, phlebotomists, occupational therapists, vet techs, social workers, and sonographers don't have to deal with bodily fluids and/or physically demanding tasks, you are sorely misinformed.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There are 354 jobs on that list (once we remove the category headers and filter out the ones with no data). Of those 354 job categories, 97 have more than 75% men and 68 have more than 75% women. Both of those groupings include plenty of "gross" or "difficult" jobs and plenty of comfortable jobs. If we want to cherry pick off the men's list, there's:

Computer numerically controlled tool operators and programmers
Computer network architects
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Computer, automated teller, and office machine repairers
Construction managers
Aerospace engineers
Architectural and engineering managers
Mechanical engineers
Construction and building inspectors
Electrical and electronics engineers
Precision instrument and equipment repairers
Computer hardware engineers
Engineers, all other
Network and computer systems administrators
Civil engineers
Computer programmers
Information security analysts
Motor vehicle operators, all other
Cost estimators
Software developers
Other drafters
Chemical engineers
Other engineering technologists and technicians, except drafters
Chefs and head cooks
Surveying and mapping technicians
Industrial production managers
Industrial engineers, including health and safety
Computer occupations, all other
Parts salespersons

Also, if you think that dental hygienists, dental assistants, phlebotomists, occupational therapists, vet techs, social workers, and sonographers don't have to deal with bodily fluids and/or physically demanding tasks, you are sorely misinformed.

I touched on that in my post, most of what's on your list is STEM fields (which accounts for a substantial portion of the pay gap), which is 70%+ men, and that there's been a concerted effort to get more girls interested in, but to no avail.

We can't forcibly make software development, network administration, and PC hardware repair more interesting to girls. They either like it or they don't.

As of right now, they largely don't.

Speaking as someone who's part of the interview processes for a tech firm, the number of male applicants outnumbers the female applicants by 6:1 (easily)

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I touched on that in my post, most of what's on your list is STEM fields (which accounts for a substantial portion of the pay gap), which is 70%+ men, and that there's been a concerted effort to get more girls interested in, but to no avail.

We can't forcibly make software development, network administration, and PC hardware repair more interesting to girls. They either like it or they don't.

As of right now, they largely don't.

Similar things could be said about construction, landscaping, and all of the other "outdoors" professions you were complaining about a lack of representation in though. Women aren't interested.

Of course, the question should then be "Why aren't they interested?" In a lot of cases, it's a combination of indoctrination/social norms and an utterly toxic work environment. That goes for both STEM careers and blue collar physical labor.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Similar things could be said about construction, landscaping, and all of the other "outdoors" professions you were complaining about a lack of representation in though. Women aren't interested.

Of course, the question should then be "Why aren't they interested?" In a lot of cases, it's a combination of indoctrination/social norms and an utterly toxic work environment. That goes for both STEM careers and blue collar physical labor.

To be clear, I wasn't complaining about the lack of representation in those fields, I was highlighting that feminists weren't complaining about lack of representation in those fields like they do about the C-suite.


I know why there's a difference in those fields, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why... carrying 80 pound bags up and down ladders requires a level of physical strength that a lot of age 20-30 men have, but that most women don't.


In terms of a "toxic work environment", that doesn't explain the lack of interest in the STEM fields.

No woman is sitting at home thinking "I'd love to be a database administrator, but that field is dominated by a bunch of hard-ass chauvinists who will talk down to me"... speaking as someone who works with those guys, 3/4 of them are afraid to talk to women...full stop... much less "exert their masculinity" lol. I'm one of the rare few that can actually talk to a woman in a work-related meeting without getting sweaty palms and coming across as a total weirdo.

Unless you're suggesting that 38 year old guys who still collect Pokémon cards is somehow "intimidating" to women, then that rationale doesn't fly when it comes to the tech field. Sorry to burst your bubble...

 

[rjs330]

Similar things could be said about construction, landscaping, and all of the other "outdoors" professions you were complaining about a lack of representation in though. Women aren't interested.

Of course, the question should then be "Why aren't they interested?" In a lot of cases, it's a combination of indoctrination/social norms and an utterly toxic work environment. That goes for both STEM careers and blue collar physical labor.

Baloney. Your answer to every job where women aren't strongly represented is indoctrination and toxicity. Who on earth is indoctrinating these women? They spend 12 years in a liberal education who is far more likely to indoctrinate boys that they arw toxic and women are are just as good if not better than them. Then they go to college, another progressive liberal bastion that pushes feminism and is more than likely to disparage males.

Why can't women just not be interested. Men and women are different. Maybe women just aren't interested in doing those things and are more interested in doing other things. Men the same way. Maybe more men just want to do those other jobs. Why can't it just be that.

It doesn't mean in rhe least that one sex is better than the other. All of us are needed to make things work. And it's okay if women are more interested in doing some things and men are more interested in doing other things. Its not bad if its rare if women are in one field and its not bad if men are rare in another field. Sexism is not the answer to every time we see women under represented in a certain field. They just might not be as interested.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

To be clear, I wasn't complaining about the lack of representation in those fields, I was highlighting that feminists weren't complaining about lack of representation in those fields like they do about the C-suite.

The reason might have something to do with the fact that, as I've already pointed out, there is no shortage of low-paying jobs for women. The problem isn't that representation isn't balanced within a field, but rather that representation isn't balanced within a pay scale. C-suite is just an easy proxy for that.

I know why there's a difference in those fields, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why... carrying 80 pound bags up and down ladders requires a level of physical strength that a lot of age 20-30 men have, but that most women don't.

And? You seem to be arguing against a strawman that feminists think that women are identical to men. I'm not aware of anyone making that argument.

In terms of a "toxic work environment", that doesn't explain the lack of interest in the STEM fields.

No woman is sitting at home thinking "I'd love to be a database administrator, but that field is dominated by a bunch of hard-ass chauvinists who will talk down to me"...

No, they're thinking, "I'd love to go into a STEM field, but half the guys are creepy weirdos who can't get past the fact that I have boobs and a vagina, and most of the rest are, at minimum, casually sexist and will dismiss my abilities because I'm a woman." Toxic work environments can take many forms; they're not limited to the sort of "hard-ass chauvinism" that's prevalent in many blue-collar professions - though those sorts of people absolutely exist in STEM too.

Toxic work environment isn't the only reason why women avoid STEM careers, but it's definitely a component - at least according to my female friends in STEM. And my observations as someone who has spent the last 20-odd years in the STEM space jive with that.