Jesus & Social Justice

[Hentenza]

"Re-distribution" certainly is in the dictionary, as an alternative of "redistribution.":

"redistribution(n.)also re-distribution, "a dealing back, a second or new distribution," 1831, from French redistribution"

Certainly here in the UK many compound words that always used to be written with a hyphen are now written without one.

The poster that I replied to claimed:

“Re-distributed.

Which is different from redistributed.”

 

[David Lamb]

The poster that I replied to claimed:

“Re-distributed.

Which is different from redistributed.”

...and that is what I don't understand, because I have looked in several dictionaries, and they don't give a different meaning for redistributed and re-distributed.

 

[Robban]

...and that is what I don't understand, because I have looked in several dictionaries, and they don't give a different meaning for redistributed and re-distributed.

Might just be a way to put emphasis on Re.

Easier to notice.

 

[RDKirk]

The poster that I replied to claimed:

“Re-distributed.

Which is different from redistributed.”

I see that you want to stay away from the Marxist-sounding word "redistribution," but in fact that's a correct word to use for what happens to the land on the Day of Jubilee. You just don't like the word.

But if we get down to it, there is another resource redistribution also spoken of in the Old Testament that Paul explicitly maps to the way the Body of Christ should manage resources within the Body of Christ. That's in 2 Corinthians 8, which maps the intended resource management of the Church back to Exodus 16:18.

• In Exodus 16:16, God gives the instruction:
  

  “Gather of it, every man according to his eating, an omer apiece, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.”

Each person was supposed to end up with one omer (a standard measure) of manna per day.

• Some gathered more than an omer, some less—probably due to differences in strength, diligence, or ability.
• But when it was measured, every household ended up with exactly one omer per person.

The result:

• No hoarding, no shortage.
• God’s provision was sufficient for all, and it became a lesson in dependence and fairness, rather than competition or greed.

The Israelites gathered unequally, but the manna was redistributed (by God’s ordering of events) so that each person had the commanded amount—an omer per head.

Paul’s brilliance in 2 Corinthians 8 is that he lifts this same principle into the realm of Christian giving within the Body of Christ: a Spirit-led sharing that ensures no one is left in lack.

 

[Hentenza]

I see that you want to stay away from the Marxist-sounding word "redistribution," but in fact that's a correct word to use for what happens to the land on the Day of Jubilee. You just don't like the word.

Is not that I don’t like the word is just that the word does not exist.

But if we get down to it, there is another resource redistribution also spoken of in the Old Testament that Paul explicitly maps to the way the Body of Christ should manage resources within the Body of Christ. That's in 2 Corinthians 8, which maps the intended resource management of the Church back to Exodus 16:18.

• In Exodus 16:16, God gives the instruction:

Each person was supposed to end up with one omer (a standard measure) of manna per day.

• Some gathered more than an omer, some less—probably due to differences in strength, diligence, or ability.
• But when it was measured, every household ended up with exactly one omer per person.

The result:

• No hoarding, no shortage.
• God’s provision was sufficient for all, and it became a lesson in dependence and fairness, rather than competition or greed.

The Israelites gathered unequally, but the manna was redistributed (by God’s ordering of events) so that each person had the commanded amount—an omer per head.

Paul’s brilliance in 2 Corinthians 8 is that he lifts this same principle into the realm of Christian giving within the Body of Christ: a Spirit-led sharing that ensures no one is left in lack.

The churches still collect from members and people to give to the poor. In fact some of the largest charities are from churches. During Exodus our perfect God was in charge and even then the people were not satisfied (they wanted meat rather than mana).

The problem now is that, as one time charity was strictly by churches, now the government has taken over that role and it has become highly political. It does not work. I’m sure that, once Christ takes over the government of the world, His socialism will be perfect. So your post, as utopian as it sounds, will never come to fruition merely because of human nature.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The problem now is that, as one time charity was strictly by churches, now the government has taken over that role and it has become highly political. It does not work.

The government hasn't taken over that role. That would assume the government does it, and churches no longer can provide charity. That's simply not true.

You are simply trying to find an excuse as for why the state shouldn't be instrumental in the public welfare of its people.

And it does work, we have myriad examples of it working to varying degrees in the form of social welfare systems, universal healthcare, etc. Plenty of modern western nations are capable of varying degrees of success: All of them doing things far better than what we have in the United States which spends more and gets less, with corrupt systems of exploitation such as for profit healthcare. For profit healthcare is evil. Wealth disparity is a genuine social evil that creates and expands poverty. When you build an entire economic model on exploitation and greed, the result is wealth falling into the hands of the very few, those very few rigging the system to keep themselves hoarding the wealth, and the overwhelming majority of people falling deeper into the hole.

It's rigged, it's corrupt, it's evil.

That's why economic justice is necessary for human flourishing. It's not about having a perfect system, there is no perfect system this side of the Eschaton; but there are degrees of better and worse. And we can aim for better.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[RDKirk]

Is not that I don’t like the word is just that the word does not exist.

"Redistribution" does not exist?

Clearly, you didn't pay attention to what I wrote.

The churches still collect from members and people to give to the poor. In fact some of the largest charities are from churches. During Exodus our perfect God was in charge and even then the people were not satisfied (they wanted meat rather than mana).

The people's desires didn't change God's command. The daily manna continued until they crossed the Jordan River.

The problem now is that, as one time charity was strictly by churches, now the government has taken over that role and it has become highly political. It does not work. I’m sure that, once Christ takes over the government of the world, His socialism will be perfect. So your post, as utopian as it sounds, will never come to fruition merely because of human nature.

The Roman Empire did have charity in Paul's time. The Roman government provided free grain and bread (and free entertainment) to needy citizens of the Empire.

Paul completely ignored the government's charity and urged the Body of Christ to independently meet the needs of the Body of Christ, as scripture testifies with multiple witnesses that the Church did in Jerusalem.

Christ is the government of the Body of Christ, and He has provided the Body of Christ in this world with all the resources necessary to support the Body of Christ. Jesus has not defaulted on His promises. The Body of Christ has, right now, in our hands, all the resources to make sure every Christian on earth is clothed, housed, and fed.

And if we are, indeed, Christian, then we have the nature of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hentenza]

"Redistribution" does not exist?

Clearly, you didn't pay attention to what I wrote.

I have a problem using words that have no definition. If it’s not in the dictionary then is a made up word with a subjective meaning.

Clearly you didn’t look up the word first before using it.

The people's desires didn't change God's command. The daily manna continued until they crossed the Jordan River.


The Roman Empire _did_ have charity in Paul's time. The Roman government provided free grain and bread (and free entertainment) to needy citizens of the Empire.

Paul completely ignored the government's charity and urged the Body of Christ to independently meet the needs of the Body of Christ, as scripture testifies with multiple witnesses that the Church did in Jerusalem.

Christ _is_ the government of the Body of Christ, and He has provided the Body of Christ in this world with all the resources necessary to support the Body of Christ. Jesus has not defaulted on His promises. The Body of Christ has, right now, in our hands, all the resources to make sure every Christian on earth is clothed, housed, and fed.

And if we are, indeed, Christian, then we have the nature of the Holy Spirit.

Right. I agree with the responsibility of the Christian and stated as such so I don’t know what you are arguing about. I do disagree with your analysis of the resources available to the body of Christ to care for the poor unless you are insinuating that whatever resources that are available are being mismanaged.

The problem now is not the Christian is the government. The utopia that you write about will never happen under the government’s purview.

 

[Clare73]

"Redistribution" does not exist?
Clearly, you didn't pay attention to what I wrote.
The people's desires didn't change God's command. The daily manna continued until they crossed the Jordan River.
The Roman Empire did have charity in Paul's time. The Roman government provided free grain and bread (and free entertainment) to needy citizens of the Empire.
Paul completely ignored the government's charity and urged the Body of Christ to independently meet the needs of the Body of Christ, as scripture testifies with multiple witnesses that the Church did in Jerusalem.

Christ is the government of the Body of Christ, and He has provided the Body of Christ in this world with all the resources necessary to support the Body of Christ. Jesus has not defaulted on His promises. The Body of Christ has, right now, in our hands, all the resources to make sure every Christian on earth is clothed, housed, and fed.

Is the Church failing any of these Christians?

And if we are, indeed, Christian, then we have the nature of the Holy Spirit

 

[Lukaris]

While there is a social gospel for our neighbors, the commandments ( I believe) are to also preach social responsibility ( Romans 13:1-14 etc.). We still have a duty for those who fall into dependency because of sin ( adultery, stealing etc.) but I believe these are often neglected in preaching. A social gospel for the genuine needy ( Luke 10:25-37 etc.) is a given.

 

[RDKirk]

I have a problem using words that have no definition. If it’s not in the dictionary then is a made up word with a subjective meaning.

Clearly you didn’t look up the word first before using it.

Clearly you didn't notice that I've been using "redistribution." Are you claiming that word is not in the dictionary?

Right. I agree with the responsibility of the Christian and stated as such so I don’t know what you are arguing about. I do disagree with your analysis of the resources available to the body of Christ to care for the poor unless you are insinuating that whatever resources that are available are being mismanaged.

The problem now is not the Christian is the government. The utopia that you write about will never happen under the government’s purview.

Oh, yes, I certainly claim the resources that Jesus has put into the hands of the Body of Christ today are being mismanaged.

About a decade ago I sat in the sanctuary of a big megachurch that hosted for that Sunday a pastor from India. The church had just renovated its atrium area, including putting in a Starbucks-like coffee shop and a $2,000,000 (yes, six zeros) indoor waterfall and decorative pool (reputed to be dual use as a baptismal pool).

The Indian pastor remarked how lovely the indoor waterfall and pool was, but in the course of his sermon, he also mentioned that the annual budget of the average Indian Christian congregation was only $1,000. I was pricked by the Holy Spirit: I myself, all by myself, could fund an entire Indian congregation.

When I found the opportunity, I began doing that.

 

[Hentenza]

Clearly you didn't notice that I've been using "redistribution." Are you claiming that word is not in the dictionary?

Oh, yes, I certainly claim the resources that Jesus has put into the hands of the Body of Christ today are being mismanaged.

About a decade ago I sat in the sanctuary of a big megachurch that hosted for that Sunday a pastor from India. The church had just renovated its atrium area, including putting in a Starbucks-like coffee shop and a $2,000,000 (yes, six zeros) indoor waterfall and decorative pool (reputed to be dual use as a baptismal pool).

The Indian pastor remarked how lovely the indoor waterfall and pool was, but in the course of his sermon, he also mentioned that the annual budget of the average Indian Christian congregation was only $1,000. I was pricked by the Holy Spirit: I myself, all by myself, could fund an entire Indian congregation.

When I found the opportunity, I began doing that.

We are in complete agreement here. As a deacon in my church our pastor sometimes sends us to other churches that need help with administration or financial matters and the first thing I look for is what kind of car the pastor drives and their extracurricular expenditures. The waste sometimes is incredible.

 

[Hentenza]

The government hasn't taken over that role. That would assume the government does it, and churches no longer can provide charity. That's simply not true.

And that’s the problem with assuming. I used the world “strictly” to qualify my statement. The government taking the main role of providing charity through entitlement programs does not preclude the churches to provide charity. I stated in my previous post that some of the largest charities are from Christian churches.

You are simply trying to find an excuse as for why the state shouldn't be instrumental in the public welfare of its people.

Never had I said that. You are once again assuming that just because I debated your incorrect analysis of the restoration of land by Israel every 50 years that I somehow are opposed to entitlement programs.

And it does work, we have myriad examples of it working to varying degrees in the form of social welfare systems, universal healthcare, etc. Plenty of modern western nations are capable of varying degrees of success: All of them doing things far better than what we have in the United States which spends more and gets less, with corrupt systems of exploitation such as for profit healthcare. For profit healthcare is evil.

Here, I’m going to surprise you. I am for universal health care. I don’t follow the liberal playbook of calling everything I don’t like “evil” though.

Wealth disparity is a genuine social evil that creates and expands poverty. When you build an entire economic model on exploitation and greed, the result is wealth falling into the hands of the very few, those very few rigging the system to keep themselves hoarding the wealth, and the overwhelming majority of people falling deeper into the hole.

I am an immigrant from Cuba and arrived as a child with only the one suitcase that we were allowed to take. My parents worked their fingers to the bone to give me and my brother the best upbringing possible so don’t get me going on the shortfalls of socialism and communism. Spare me the “evils” of capitalism. If this country is so bad then why do we have an immigration problem? If my family could make it everyone else can to. Anyone in this country has the opportunity to grow and make as much money as they want. But they have to have the desire to make decisions that advances their position. Anyone can go into any community college and get a free education using the Pell grant and other economic help programs. They can even get a job at the school to help with their expenses. I know this because I taught community college for a bit.

Anyone below the poverty line can get food stamps and snap. All schools provide lunches for children. There are programs to help people get a job. There are programs that allow people to get clothes and other essentials. There is also a large underground black market that buys entitlement program benefits, like food stamps, from the beneficiaries. The programs are there but people abuse them.

As I stated before, I have no problems with entitlement programs but only for those that really need it.

It's rigged, it's corrupt, it's evil.

lol There is the “evils” word again.

That's why economic justice is necessary for human flourishing. It's not about having a perfect system, there is no perfect system this side of the Eschaton; but there are degrees of better and worse. And we can aim for better.

-CryptoLutheran

I am an independent because I can’t stand the drama and non action of both parties in the US. Both parties have gone to the extreme so no one benefits and there is no possibility of compromise. If you want change to happen then get off your far left liberal high horse and start voting people in that are more toward the center where maybe communication and compromise might be possible.

 

[David Lamb]

I have a problem using words that have no definition. If it’s not in the dictionary then is a made up word with a subjective meaning.

Do you mean that you cannot find the word "redistribution" in any dictionary? The Cambridge Dictionary, the Meriam-Webster Dictionary, Oxford English Dictionary and Collins Dictionary all have it, and I am sure others do as well.

 

[Hentenza]

Do you mean that you cannot find the word "redistribution" in any dictionary? The Cambridge Dictionary, the Meriam-Webster Dictionary, Oxford English Dictionary and Collins Dictionary all have it, and I am sure others do as well.

No. The word that was being used was re-distribution (hyphenated) as being different than redistribution. Hyphenated re-distribution is not in the dictionary.

 

[David Lamb]

No. The word that was being used was re-distribution (hyphenated) as being different than redistribution. Hyphenated re-distribution is not in the dictionary.

Thanks for explaining.

 

[RDKirk]

No. The word that was being used was re-distribution (hyphenated) as being different than redistribution. Hyphenated re-distribution is not in the dictionary.

But you didn't notice that I'd been using "redistribution" because you weren't actually reading what I was writing.

 

[Hentenza]

But you didn't notice that I'd been using "redistribution" because you weren't actually reading what I was writing.

Ok that’s not what I read (see your post 117). I did go back and reread your post 125 and you indeed used the non hyphenated word.

 

[Meowzltov]

I know many Christians are hesitant to connect "following Jesus" with what's often called "social justice". But I believe there's compelling biblical support - even in passages like Micah 6:8 - that following Jesus compels us to pursue justice, including in societal forms.

What do you think - does Scripture call us to systemic justice, or is the focus primarily on individual devotion?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially after watching this video:

When you study the Torah (aka books of Law, books of Moses, first five books of the Bible) it positively screams social justice. Not some voluntary "help them out out of the goodness of your heart." Assistance for the poor, the widow, the orphan are built into the framework of Israelite society in a very involuntary manner.

If you like, I can go into the myriad of verses in more depth, but for now I will focus in on just one:
"When you enter your neighbor’s vineyard, you may eat grapes as you desire, to your fill; but you shall not put any in your vessel. When you enter your neighbor’s standing grain, you may pluck the ears with your hand; but you shall not move a sickle into your neighbor’s standing grain."
Deuteronomy 23:24-25

In our society, that would be called stealing. But in Israelite society, it was a basic right that someone could eat until they were no longer hungry. The view was that all things belongs to God who entrusts it to us, and part is entrusted to us on behalf of the poor. It was not viewed as the hungry person taking food that belonged to the farmer. It was viewed as food that belonged to anyone who was hungry.

Notice there are clarifications in place as well--while you can satiate your hunger, you are not to take so much that you are essentially starting your own business at your neighbor's expense.

Jesus clearly believed that caring for the poor and marginalized wasn't just a nice thing to do, but an obligation. In two separate parables, people end up in Gehenna because they neglected the poor, the hungry, the sick, the imprisoned.

Do you know what God says in Isaiah about those who neglect the poor? He says, "I don't want your stinking sacrifices! When you pray, I hide my eyes from you!"