Newsome pushed back against Democracy to achieve his political goals

[eclipsenow]

Yeah, like i said,

No - it's not like you said.
Not at all.
Listen to other people. Read the articles. Learn.

its a subjective opinion on what is best. And often we find these subjective opinions come from leftist belief systems.

Why would I listen to any of this when you have not demonstrated an understanding of this conversation?

I'm not going to trust a bunch of leftists to decide where we sit on the democracy scale.

You're calling "The Economist" that? Wow.
I guess when Fox news is your only source - anything 'Least biased' screams communism?

The Republican Party is dead - long live MAGA!

Our country has flaws as well as your country.

Australia sure does have our flaws!
BUT - we have safe enough mail in voting for weeks before an election.
We have independent, objective electoral bodies at the Federal and State level. (No Gerrymandering!)

We have super-ABUNDANT voting booths on a Saturday, usually in the local public school or town hall, so that at the most we might wait 15 minutes to half an hour.
(We don't make that ethnic electorate wait 8 hours in the sun on a workday Tuesday to vote - discouraging poorer, paid by the shift workers from voting!)

We have a democracy sausage after voting.
We hang out and chat afterwards.
It's a community event.

We also have COMPULSORY VOTING! That means the politicians must appeal to the bored middle - not the frenzied edges that actually have the motivation to vote.

In other words - with all our faults - our democratic institutions are fairer and healthier and less 'rigged' like this Texas business forcing Newsom to reply!

Your country is not better than ours because some left-leaning group has decided it is.

No - but the democratic institutions ARE better because we haven't had Gerrymandering for decades!

Our nation is not backsliding into authoritarianism.

It's not there yet - but it's moving in that direction, as judged by a number of organisations.

Its been backsliding into leftist ideology

Nope! Your country has drifted so far into right-wing extremism you don't HAVE a left!

You don't know what a real left party even looks like - and I'm not even talking Communism.
Your country seems "binary" with economics. You seem to think there's "free market" and "Socialist". What about Social-Liberal, or even Ordo-Liberal? Don't know what that is? Ooops!

There are many other settings on the economic dial as well.

Your 'left' might go on about gender issues - but even Bernie Sanders would be on the far-right of our Conservative Party!
Why? His attitude to healthcare! "Single Payer" just does not go far enough to even qualify for our Conservative Coalition!

We cover ALL Australian citizens with healthcare - at half the cost of America. How? Go figure. I'll let you google that - you might learn something about the many other settings on that economic dial!

and leftist authoritarianism

I could wish that would happen for the sake of your poor. As it is - the Christian right in America have sacrificed their consciences at the altar of economic conservatism that robs the poor to reward the rich, giving multi-million dollar tax cuts to the uber-rich while kicking the bottom 16 million Americans off healthcare.

Remember when Obama went after right wing citizens?

Depends what you're talking about.
I don't remember American citizens being dragged off the streets and put behind barbed wire fenced enclosures just for the 'crime' of looking 'ethnic' or working in a hardware store! Masked authorities taking people away? Now where have I seen that before? Oh yeah...

We are trying to get back to common sense,

Um, by rewarding the uber rich and punishing the poor?
My treating desperate immigrants as criminals when statistics show they are less likely to commit crime and as a net group BENEFIT the American GDP far more than any welfare costs?

reality

Reality? Really?
Like vaccines are bad for the population, like climate change isn't real, like Trump is wonderful and helped end 6 wars this year and deserves the Nobel Peace Prize?

Reality? Wow. MAGA are the anti-reality anti-science, anti-medicine party.

and support for law and order to protect our citizens from criminals and people stealing our jobs and wages.

Oh riiiight.
Those jobs American native born citizens don't want to do - but 'illegals' fleeing drug gangs that stole their other teenage daughter into the prostitution industry - they're the bad guys? A father brings his surviving family members to America to escape these Central American drug gangs. They leave their other daughter behind - there's no way to get her back - she's gone to them and they're grieving. They get to America just to save their other children and daughters from all that. And they're desperate! So they collect the garbage or pump the gas. These 'terrible illegals' are so desperate to live in the USA they commit about HALF the crime of native born, and work ANY job - these terrible people are 'stealing your jobs'?

Studies show native born Americans don't WANT those jobs in the first place!

Why not watch that old doco - "A day without Mexicans"? See what life in California would look like without these "terrible people"? It turns out they're not "eating the dogs" - they're the ones cleaning up dog poop. They're the ones taking out the trash, washing the dishes, pumping the gas, doing all the thankless background work that helps a city run.

What happened to the days when Republicans used to see human beings as economic units - a form of human capital that would increase the GDP of America?

MAGA happened. Trump happened. Racism happened.
And you claim your country isn't suffering democratic decline?
Don't make me laugh!

 

[The Barbarian]

Republicans are predictably outraged that democrats are now doing what republicans do.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Republicans are predictably outraged that democrats are now doing what republicans do.

Only Republicans are allowed to rig the system in their favor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[eclipsenow]

Only Republicans are allowed to rig the system in their favor.

-CryptoLutheran

And it's never, oh never a sign of 'democratic backsliding'. It's just a different system of democracy! See - apparently to say otherwise is subjective lefty wokeness... or something.

 

[rjs330]

No - it's not like you said.
Not at all.
Listen to other people. Read the articles. Learn.


Why would I listen to any of this when you have not demonstrated an understanding of this conversation?


You're calling "The Economist" that? Wow.
I guess when Fox news is your only source - anything 'Least biased' screams communism?
View attachment 369232

The Republican Party is dead - long live MAGA!



Australia sure does have our flaws!
BUT - we have safe enough mail in voting for weeks before an election.
We have independent, objective electoral bodies at the Federal and State level. (No Gerrymandering!)

We have super-ABUNDANT voting booths on a Saturday, usually in the local public school or town hall, so that at the most we might wait 15 minutes to half an hour.
(We don't make that ethnic electorate wait 8 hours in the sun on a workday Tuesday to vote - discouraging poorer, paid by the shift workers from voting!)

We have a democracy sausage after voting.
We hang out and chat afterwards.
It's a community event.

We also have COMPULSORY VOTING! That means the politicians must appeal to the bored middle - not the frenzied edges that actually have the motivation to vote.

In other words - with all our faults - our democratic institutions are fairer and healthier and less 'rigged' like this Texas business forcing Newsom to reply!


No - but the democratic institutions ARE better because we haven't had Gerrymandering for decades!

It's not there yet - but it's moving in that direction, as judged by a number of organisations.


Nope! Your country has drifted so far into right-wing extremism you don't HAVE a left!

You don't know what a real left party even looks like - and I'm not even talking Communism.
Your country seems "binary" with economics. You seem to think there's "free market" and "Socialist". What about Social-Liberal, or even Ordo-Liberal? Don't know what that is? Ooops!

There are many other settings on the economic dial as well.

Your 'left' might go on about gender issues - but even Bernie Sanders would be on the far-right of our Conservative Party!
Why? His attitude to healthcare! "Single Payer" just does not go far enough to even qualify for our Conservative Coalition!

We cover ALL Australian citizens with healthcare - at half the cost of America. How? Go figure. I'll let you google that - you might learn something about the many other settings on that economic dial!



I could wish that would happen for the sake of your poor. As it is - the Christian right in America have sacrificed their consciences at the altar of economic conservatism that robs the poor to reward the rich, giving multi-million dollar tax cuts to the uber-rich while kicking the bottom 16 million Americans off healthcare.



Depends what you're talking about.
I don't remember American citizens being dragged off the streets and put behind barbed wire fenced enclosures just for the 'crime' of looking 'ethnic' or working in a hardware store! Masked authorities taking people away? Now where have I seen that before? Oh yeah...
View attachment 369233

Um, by rewarding the uber rich and punishing the poor?
My treating desperate immigrants as criminals when statistics show they are less likely to commit crime and as a net group BENEFIT the American GDP far more than any welfare costs?


Reality? Really?
Like vaccines are bad for the population, like climate change isn't real, like Trump is wonderful and helped end 6 wars this year and deserves the Nobel Peace Prize?

Reality? Wow. MAGA are the anti-reality anti-science, anti-medicine party.


Oh riiiight.
Those jobs American native born citizens don't want to do - but 'illegals' fleeing drug gangs that stole their other teenage daughter into the prostitution industry - they're the bad guys? A father brings his surviving family members to America to escape these Central American drug gangs. They leave their other daughter behind - there's no way to get her back - she's gone to them and they're grieving. They get to America just to save their other children and daughters from all that. And they're desperate! So they collect the garbage or pump the gas. These 'terrible illegals' are so desperate to live in the USA they commit about HALF the crime of native born, and work ANY job - these terrible people are 'stealing your jobs'?

Studies show native born Americans don't WANT those jobs in the first place!

Why not watch that old doco - "A day without Mexicans"? See what life in California would look like without these "terrible people"? It turns out they're not "eating the dogs" - they're the ones cleaning up dog poop. They're the ones taking out the trash, washing the dishes, pumping the gas, doing all the thankless background work that helps a city run.

What happened to the days when Republicans used to see human beings as economic units - a form of human capital that would increase the GDP of America?

MAGA happened. Trump happened. Racism happened.
And you claim your country isn't suffering democratic decline?
Don't make me laugh!

Nothing but a bunch of leftist tripe. Our country is moving forward. Slowly leaving the leftist ideology behind. But I know, Australia is the best country in the world. Maybe we ought to ship.our 20 million illegals there. They can steal your jobs and murder people, cause terrible accidents and lower your wages and upset your political systems.

Yeah we get it. Australia is awesome, Australia is great, Australia is the best country in the world while youve given yourselves over to the authoritarianism and lack of freedom of the left which all leftists love. Somehow rounding up criminals is suddenly a bad thing, suddenly making a city safer from criminality is a bad thing.

And all those things you claim are being done by Mexicans could be done by Americans or LEGAL Mexicans. We have a pathway here of coming here legally and participating in the American dream in a legal way. You dont need to be stealing people's identities. There is a pathway to legal entry and legal jobs. We are happy to have you follow our laws and live and work here in a legal fashion.

You know all those American poor everyone is talking about? Well they could do those jobs as well. Work construction, work in motels, work in kitchens etc instead of collecting handouts from the rest of us who are working.

 

[rjs330]

All this Gerrymandering uproar from the left is nothing but a bunch of hypocrites whining over things they do when it looks like it might effect them. Its like slapping someone in the face and thinking it was a wonderful act and the going nuts when someone slaps them.

Hypocrites all.

 

[Yarddog]

Texas is obviously not the reason CA already has such a rigged system. Your beef with Texas is from something that occurred only 17 days ago.

California doesn't have a rigged system and they are considered one of the best states for voting districts. Texas, on the other hand, is rated one of the worst and has three of top 10 worst gerrymandered districts.

Newsom has put forth a gerrymandered map on the ballot for residents to vote on, in November. It will be up to the people to decide this issue, unlike Texas.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Is that the Democratic Party method - if you do not like what the voters decided at some point - change the rules?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Is that the Democratic Party method - if you do not like what the voters decided at some point - change the rules?

No, you ask the voters again.

 

[eclipsenow]

Nothing but a bunch of leftist tripe.

Which bit is 'leftist'? Please define 'lefist'? If you mean "nothing but critical of America" then that's another subject - and a whole range of economic perspectives can do that. Like "The Economist" that we've been discussing!

Our country is moving forward.

Depends what you mean - and in which area.
If you mean being harsh on minority groups - then I guess if you see that as 'progress' - you're progressing.
If you mean being harsh on desperate refugees and 'illegal migrants' - then you're definitely killing it! (As in your human rights record - that is!)
If you mean being sceptical of modern climate and vaccine science - again - you're killing it!

Slowly leaving the leftist ideology behind.

Ah, yes - as I feared. But that's not what we are currently discussing.
We're discussing how functional your democratic systems are - and how immune to corruption.

To try and tease out the difference between party-political ideology - which you seem submerged in and unable to swim above and get a view of that new landscape of OTHER ideas OUT of the swamp you're in - let's try this.

Put the party ideologies aside and ask yourself this.

As the President flexes new powers - and as the country engages in weird, antiquated corruption like Gerrymandering - ask yourself this:

Would I be happy if the OTHER team got those powers!!??​

But I know, Australia is the best country in the world. Maybe we ought to ship.our 20 million illegals there. They can steal your jobs and murder people, cause terrible accidents and lower your wages and upset your political systems.

First - we do not have the 330 million people that has the wealth and infrastructure to cope with 20 million as a tiny fraction of our numbers.

Second - your condemning emotive language is completely, scientifically unjustified! Scientific analysis of the data shows you to be completely wrong - you've drunk the Trump coolaid. "They're eating the dogs" - or something! But the data says otherwise.

From 2019:​

"most studies have shown that illegal immigrants tend to commit less crime than the native born"
Gonzalez, Benjamin; Collingwood, Loren; El-Khatib, Stephen Omar (2019). "The Politics of Refuge: Sanctuary Cities, Crime, and Undocumented Immigration". Urban Affairs Review. 55: 107808741770497. doi:10.1177/1078087417704974. S2CID 32604699.

From 2020:​

We make use of uniquely comprehensive arrest data from the Texas Department of Public Safety to compare the criminality of undocumented immigrants to legal immigrants and native-born US citizens between 2012 and 2018. We find that undocumented immigrants have substantially lower crime rates than native-born citizens and legal immigrants across a range of felony offenses. Relative to undocumented immigrants, US-born citizens are over 2 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes, 2.5 times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes, and over 4 times more likely to be arrested for property crimes. In addition, the proportion of arrests involving undocumented immigrants in Texas was relatively stable or decreasing over this period. The differences between US-born citizens and undocumented immigrants are robust to using alternative estimates of the broader undocumented population, alternate classifications of those counted as “undocumented” at arrest and substituting misdemeanors or convictions as measures of crime.
Light, Michael T.; He, Jingying; Robey, Jason P. (December 2, 2020). "Comparing crime rates between undocumented immigrants, legal immigrants, and native-born US citizens in Texas". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 117 (51): 32340–32347. Bibcode:2020PNAS..11732340L. doi:10.1073/pnas.2014704117. PMC 7768760. PMID 33288713.
Comparing crime rates between undocumented immigrants, legal immigrants, and native-born US citizens in Texas - PMC

From 2024​

"A range of studies by academics and think tanks have shown that immigrants do not commit crime at a higher rate than native-born Americans. A more limited universe of studies specifically examine criminality among immigrants in the US illegally but also find that they do not commit crimes at a higher rate."
Hesson, Ted; Rosenberg, Mica; Hesson, Ted; Rosenberg, Mica (July 16, 2024). "Trump says migrants are fueling violent crime. Here is what the research shows". Reuters. Retrieved July 28, 2024.

Australia is the best country in the world while youve given yourselves over to the authoritarianism and lack of freedom of the left which all leftists love.

Incorrect. We're not the best in many regards - and I'm critical of those areas also.

But at least (for now) we are keeping our democratic SYSTEMS in place. Which means our democratic FUNCTIONS of government agencies are more likely to help us express our democratic views on things - not less. What those views are - and how the population's views might be manipulated by lies on social media and the press - that's ANOTHER SUBJECT!

I'm talking about SYSTEMS - you're talking about POLICIES!

The American SYSTEMS are in decline - at least according to independent reports from The Economist and other agencies.

You seem to be equating policy outcomes YOU DESIRE with the health of the system that produces them.

That's like confusing the cleanliness of a food production line with whether or not you like beef or pork sausages at the end! ​

​

I'm saying "Look out - there's dog poo on the line!" ​

​

You're saying "I like beef - get that pork away from me!"​

 

[rambot]

Frustrating stuff to have your crappy tactics used against you.

I agree 100%

 

[Aldebaran]

Republicans are predictably outraged that democrats are now doing what republicans do.

If that were the case, the border would have been secured during biden's regime. Wasteful government spending would have been identified and eliminated.

 

[The Barbarian]

(Newsome is Gerrymandering in the same way Texas republicans are Gerrymandering)

Republicans are predictably outraged that democrats are now doing what republicans do.

If that were the case,

If that were the case, they'd be criticizing Newsome for Gerrymandering:

Trump, California Republicans move to block Newsom's redistricting ballot measure​

Trump, California Republicans move to block Newsom's redistricting ballot measure

the border would have been secured during biden's regime.

Republicans went into pearl-clutching outrage over Obama's moves to deport dangerous criminals:

PBS NewsHour

"President Obama earned the nickname deporter-in-chief because he deported more people than any previous president," reports Amna Nawaz.

www.facebook.com

Wasteful government spending would have been identified and eliminated.

Trump administration scrambles to rehire key federal workers after DOGE firings​

https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/24/politics/doge-fired-workers-rehired

​

​

Deficits haven't been this high since the pandemic.

 

[DaisyDay]

Is that the Democratic Party method - if you do not like what the voters decided at some point - change the rules?

McConnell-Garland/Barrett

 

[The Barbarian]

All this Gerrymandering uproar from the left is nothing but a bunch of hypocrites whining over things they do when it looks like it might effect them. Its like slapping someone in the face and thinking it was a wonderful act and the going nuts when someone slaps them.

Hypocrites all.

Republicans aren't the left. But they are going nuts because democrats are starting to do the same things they've been doing.

 

[The Barbarian]

Is that the Democratic Party method - if you do not like what the voters decided at some point - change the rules?

Here's a way to find out:

Are these guys republicans or democrats?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Is that the Democratic Party method - if you do not like what the voters decided at some point - change the rules?

Does the Republican Party employ similar tactics?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Republicans aren't the left. But they are going nuts because democrats are starting to do the same things they've been doing.

In the fight over gerrymandering, the DNC is unlikely to outmaneuver the GOP, as there are more swing districts in red states for the GOP to redraw than in blue states for the DNC. The DNC could instead focus efforts on states like California to make GOP members vulnerable, then leverage this for legislation requiring independent, bipartisan mapping for districts—with non-compliance resulting in exclusion from Congress. Although states control elections, action is needed since both parties exploit gerrymandering; however, at that time, the GOP and President Trump were especially blatant in their approach.

 

[eclipsenow]

In the fight over gerrymandering, the DNC is unlikely to outmaneuver the GOP, as there are more swing districts in red states for the GOP to redraw than in blue states for the DNC. The DNC could instead focus efforts on states like California to make GOP members vulnerable, then leverage this for legislation requiring independent, bipartisan mapping for districts—with non-compliance resulting in exclusion from Congress. Although states control elections, action is needed since both parties exploit gerrymandering; however, at that time, the GOP and President Trump were especially blatant in their approach.

Or - the Federal government should legislate that each state should have a constitutionally bound, mathematically prescribed, independent bipartisan electoral authority.

Imagine if citizens picked their politicians, rather than politicians picking and choosing their citizens?

Imagine if we could prevent further democratic backsliding.

Imagine if no one committed this obscene, archaic and corrupt Gerrymandering practice?

This - and a few other tweaks - and American democracy might be able to leave the FLAWED label it currently carries.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Or - the Federal government should legislate that each state should have a constitutionally bound, mathematically prescribed, independent bipartisan electoral authority.

Imagine if citizens picked their politicians, rather than politicians picking and choosing their citizens?

Imagine if we could prevent further democratic backsliding.

Imagine if no one committed this obscene, archaic and corrupt Gerrymandering practice?

This - and a few other tweaks - and American democracy might be able to leave the FLAWED label it currently carries.

I agree, but neither party will act unless pressured. If the DNC takes power, they’ll behave just like the GOP. Change will only happen by forcing the other side to concede. If Democrats can persuade a few at-risk GOP members—perhaps those vulnerable due to gerrymandering in places like CA or NYC—they might vote with the Democrats to protect their seats.