6,000 Years?

[The Barbarian]

The idea behind the flood was to destroy all life on the planet except for Noah and everything on the ark which it did so it must have covered the whole planet

"On the planet" is a modern revision, of course. God specifically avoided using the word for "whole world" for a reason.

 

[davetaff]

"On the planet" is a modern revision, of course. God specifically avoided using the word for "whole world" for a reason.

Hi Barbarian
thank you for your reply but Gods word says

Gen_7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

if everything died then God must have flooded the whole world for the flood to kill everything we must believe Gods word and not dissect every word to make them suit our theories

 

[Job 33:6]

Hi Barbarian
thank you for your reply but Gods word says

Gen_7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

if everything died then God must have flooded the whole world for the flood to kill everything we must believe Gods word and not dissect every word to make them suit our theories

The old testament frequently employs rhetorical language. A popular example of this is Joshua's conquest in which he and his army killed all the peoples of all the lands, men, women, and children. Yet this isn't actually the case in that caananites are later referenced as being alive and well. It's the same reason the nephelim are still present and alive in numbers 13:33 despite being present during the flood.

 

[davetaff]

The old testament frequently employs rhetorical language. A popular example of this is Joshua's conquest in which he and his army killed all the peoples of all the lands, men, women, and children. Yet this isn't actually the case in that caananites are later referenced as being alive and well. It's the same reason the nephelim are still present and alive in numbers 13:33 despite being present during the flood.

Hi Job
Thank you for your reply so are you telling me I cannot trust Gods word dose that apply to the whole of scripture how do I believe any of it if some of it is not true.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[Job 33:6]

Hi Job
Thank you for your reply so are you telling me I cannot trust Gods word dose that apply to the whole of scripture how do I believe any of it if some of it is not true.

Love and Peace
Dave

Rhetorical language is not untrue. It just requires critical thinking.

If I said "wow my suitcase weights a ton!!!".

You wouldn't run up and grab onto my suitcase and say "hey, you lied! It doesn't weight a ton, it only weights 20 pounds! How can I believe anything you say if this isn't true?! Ahh!"

 

[Platte]

Rhetorical language is not untrue. It just requires critical thinking.

If I said "wow my suitcase weights a ton!!!".

You wouldn't run up and grab onto my suitcase and say "hey, you lied! It doesn't weight a ton, it only weights 20 pounds! How can I believe anything you say if this isn't true?! Ahh!"

Genesis was written the same as the rest of the law...and its not rhetorical.

 

[Platte]

The old testament frequently employs rhetorical language. A popular example of this is Joshua's conquest in which he and his army killed all the peoples of all the lands, men, women, and children. Yet this isn't actually the case in that caananites are later referenced as being alive and well. It's the same reason the nephelim are still present and alive in numbers 13:33 despite being present during the flood.

The Nephalim were not present and alive in Numbers or anywhere else after the flood

 

[tampasteve]

Genesis was written the same as the rest of the law...and its not rhetorical.

Not all of the Torah or Tanakh can be read literal. Take these verses for example, some have had words added in on English translations to clarify them to our understanding, so I am using a literal translation from the Hebrew (Artscroll version). I highlighted the parts that clearly are metaphor or to be read rhetorically:

Isaiah 40: 6 A voice says, "Call!" and it says, "What shall I call?" "All flesh is grass, and all its kindness is like the blossom of the field...
Isaiah 40:10 Behold the Lord God shall come with a strong [hand], and His arm rules for Him; behold His reward is with Him, and His recompense is before Him.

Not to mention verses with direct instructions that would contradict one another if we don't read them with a critical mind (NASB):

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth.

Then the Hebrews were told a few chapters later in directions on the Ark to make images of angels:

Exodus 25:18-22 You shall make two cherubim of gold; make them of hammered work at the two ends of the atoning cover. 19 Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim of one piece with the atoning cover at its two ends. 20 And the cherubim shall have their wings spread upward, covering the atoning cover with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the cherubim are to be turned toward the atoning cover. 21 Then you shall put the atoning cover on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony which I will give to you. 22 There I will meet with you; and from above the atoning cover, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about every commandment that I will give you for the sons of Israel.

 

[Platte]

Not all of the Torah or Tanakh can be read literal. Take these verses for example, some have had words added in on English translations to clarify them to our understanding, so I am using a literal translation from the Hebrew (Artscroll version). I highlighted the parts that clearly are metaphor or to be read rhetorically:

Isaiah 40: 6 A voice says, "Call!" and it says, "What shall I call?" "All flesh is grass, and all its kindness is like the blossom of the field...
Isaiah 40:10 Behold the Lord God shall come with a strong [hand], and His arm rules for Him; behold His reward is with Him, and His recompense is before Him.

Not to mention verses with direct instructions that would contradict one another if we don't read them with a critical mind (NASB):

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth.

Then the Hebrews were told a few chapters later in directions on the Ark to make images of angels:

Exodus 25:18-22 You shall make two cherubim of gold; make them of hammered work at the two ends of the atoning cover. 19 Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim of one piece with the atoning cover at its two ends. 20 And the cherubim shall have their wings spread upward, covering the atoning cover with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the cherubim are to be turned toward the atoning cover. 21 Then you shall put the atoning cover on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony which I will give to you. 22 There I will meet with you; and from above the atoning cover, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about every commandment that I will give you for the sons of Israel.

Again. Genesis was written the same as the rest of the law (Torah)...and its not rhetorical.
There is nothing rhetorical about Exodus 20:4 or 25:18-22

 

[tampasteve]

Again. Genesis was written the same as the rest of the law (Torah)...and its not rhetorical.
There is nothing rhetorical about Exodus 20:4 or 25:18-22

What I was getting at is that the scriptures have to be read using the intelligence that God has given us. Exodus 20 and 25 directly contradict one another unless we use our critical thinking. Exodus 20 tells us to not make any images of anything in Heaven. Exodus 25 told the Hebrews to make images of angels for the Ark. Understanding the passages together literally is not possible.

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis was written the same as the rest of the law...and its not rhetorical.

This doesn't make any sense. So Joshua can use rhetorical language but Genesis can't?

 

[Job 33:6]

The Nephalim were not present and alive in Numbers or anywhere else after the flood

Sure they were. Numbers 13:33.
Numbers 13:33 ESV
[33] And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

 

[Platte]

What I was getting at is that the scriptures have to be read using the intelligence that God has given us. Exodus 20 and 25 directly contradict one another unless we use our critical thinking. Exodus 20 tells us to not make any images of anything in Heaven. Exodus 25 told the Hebrews to make images of angels for the Ark. Understanding the passages together literally is not possible.

Exodus 20 is referring to idols or making image - in the context of worshipping them (do not have any other gods before me)

There was no implying or intent of worshipping the image of the angels on the Ark.

 

[Platte]

Sure they were. Numbers 13:33.
Numbers 13:33 ESV
[33] And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

Sorry - let me clarify....The Nephilim in Numbers (the sons of Anak) were not the same Nephilim of Genesis (they all died)....but rather decendents of them.

 

[tampasteve]

Exodus 20 is referring to idols or making image - in the context of worshipping them (do not have any other gods before me)

There was no implying or intent of worshipping the image of the angels on the Ark.

So, as a Baptist, you would be OK to have statues of Mary and other Saints in church? The text says "no images", you can't parse it out if you are arguing that it has to be read literally. FWIW I agree with you, but that is by using critical thinking to come to the same conclusion that you are.

Sorry - let me clarify....The Nephilim in Numbers (the sons of Anak) were not the same Nephilim of Genesis (they all died)....but rather decendents of them.

Who did the ones in Numbers descend from if they were all wiped out in the Flood?

 

[Platte]

This doesn't make any sense. So Joshua can use rhetorical language but Genesis can't?

Moses wrote Genesis and the rest of the Law....its written in the same manner throughout is the point.....and Genesis and the rest of the Law is not written rhetorically.

 

[Platte]

So, as a Baptist, you would be OK to have statues of Mary and other Saints in church?

Are you saying the image of the angel was meant for Noah to worship? because Exodus 20 was not being rhetorical when stating do not have idols or images in the context of worshiping or having other gods before me.

Who did the ones in Numbers descend from if they were all wiped out in the Flood?

Obviously someone from the ark

 

[tampasteve]

Are you saying the image of the angel was meant for Noah to worship? because Exodus 20 was not being rhetorical when stating do not have idols or images in the context of worshiping or having other gods before me.

I think that you mean Moses? Either way, of course not. What I am saying is that you are applying critical thinking to say that it was only in the context of worship. The text doesn't explicitly say that. It explicitly says "no images". Tradition separates the commandments, but we could easily divide it this way:

Exodus 20:
1 And God spoke all these words 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Commandment 1:
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

Commandment 2:
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Commandment 3:
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Commandment 4:
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

To read it in an explicit and stand alone sense as you are verse 4 should read something like "You shall not make for yourself for worship an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

For clarity I agree that it means for worship, but I am trying to impart how critical thinking and tradition influence our reading of passages.

Obviously someone from the ark

I prefer the stance that they come from unnatural union of wicked demonic worship and activity and women as practiced by the ancients, that's probably a topic for another thread...such as it is.

 

[Platte]

I think that you mean Moses?

Yes - sorry.

Either way, of course not. What I am saying is that you are applying critical thinking to say that it was only in the context of worship. The text doesn't explicitly say that. It explicitly says "no images". Tradition separates the commandments, but we could easily divide it this way:

For clarity I agree that it means for worship, but I am trying to impart how critical thinking and tradition influence our reading of passages.

Yes you always have to think when you read...You have to understand context and such...
But there is nothing rhetorical in that Scripture.

I prefer the stance that they come from unnatural union of wicked demonic worship and activity and women as practiced by the ancients, that's probably a topic for another thread...such as it is.

the women who with them them had a lot of children I'm sure....Anyone on the ark could have been decendents from one of them....even Noah (we don't know anything about his mother). One of the boy's wife would be my guess.

 

[Job 33:6]

Sorry - let me clarify....The Nephilim in Numbers (the sons of Anak) were not the same Nephilim of Genesis (they all died)....but rather decendents of them.

It's hard to have descendants if you're dead.