No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Brightfame52]

Adam, Not you or I. Unless one understands "Adam" figuratively as all of us every day.

Look I have spoken to you about this already, do a review

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I addressed it already that's why you gave your view against mine

That's what you call addressing it? This is hopeless. You think your one liner responses and your vague responses are an acceptable way of addressing my arguments. No.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That scripture is about the unbeliever.

That scripture I referenced was this passage...

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

You are trying to tell me this is about the unbeliever? Did you not even read it? How can an unbeliever turn away from God when they are already turned away from God? How can unbelievers encourage one another daily? How can an unbeliever hold his or her original conviction firmly to the very end when they have no conviction in the first place? Why would the author (probably Paul) call his readers "brothers and sisters" if they were unbelievers, keeping in mind that he also referred to them as his "holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling" earlier?

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

So, no, Hebrews 3:12-14 is not about the unbeliever. Not even close. I'm thinking you didn't even bother reading the passage.

Try Hebrews 13:5.

You need to try understanding it in context.

Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”

This only says that God would never leave us or forsake us. It does not say we can never leave or forsake Him. Why would it say "keep your lives free from the love of money" if it wasn't possible for us to get caught up in the love of money, which is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10)? You can't just look at part of the story by cherry picking scripture like this. You need to look at all of scripture and you need to stop taking scripture out of context like you're doing here and like you do with Hebrews 3:12-14.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When God draws thats regeneration by the Spirit, you are saved at that point and will be converted.

Show us where scripture equates God's drawing with regeneration by the Spirit. Good luck.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That was Gods will being done.

You think it was God's will for Adam to choose to sin? You understand that sin is the act of disobeying God, right? You're saying you believe God purposely made Adam disobey Him? If so, is that your understanding of God, that He makes people do things that He commands them not to do?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It has nothing to do with Calvinism, it is a Biblical standard that is spoken of by Jesus, Paul, and many others.

What you call the Biblical standard is just your opinion that agrees with what Calvinism teaches.

Genesis 3:14-17 (NASB95) 14 The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” 16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.” 17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

That is God kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden, the fall happening BECAUSE OF ADAM, and the promise to Eve that her descendent will save the earth and mankind. That was the cause of God’s wrath. The whole world, including mankind, was cursed because of Adam (verse 17). What is your validation for believing that we are not bound by this curse caused by Adam?

Nowhere does scripture teach that God's wrath is on unbelievers because of what Adam did. That is complete nonsense. If that was the case, then unbelievers would have an excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness even though Paul said that they have no excuse for that (Romans 1:18-21). Their excuse in that case would be that they rebel against God because of what Adam did. But, scripture does not teach that.

Each person is responsible for their own actions, not for Adam's. We inherited a sinful nature because of what Adam did, but that doesn't give anyone an excuse to not repent of their sins and to suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Each person is responsible for their own sins and can't blame Adam for them.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This doesn't say someone is condemned because of Adam, it says they are condemned because of not believing in Jesus and rejecting Him.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

This doesn't say that Jesus will punish people because of what Adam did, it says He will punish them for not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

 

[concretecamper]

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ.

Thank you for repeating what His Church has taught for close to 2,000 years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I told you what I would tell them

Yes, which wasn't the same as what Paul and Silas told the jailer who asked that question. It's very strange that you would not give the same answer they gave to that question and says a lot about your beliefs and how they come from your own imagination rather than from scripture.

 

[A New Dawn]

That scripture I referenced was this passage...

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

You are trying to tell me this is about the unbeliever? Did you not even read it? How can an unbeliever turn away from God when they are already turned away from God? How can unbelievers encourage one another daily? How can an unbeliever hold his or her original conviction firmly to the very end when they have no conviction in the first place? Why would the author (probably Paul) call his readers "brothers and sisters" if they were unbelievers, keeping in mind that he also referred to them as his "holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling" earlier?

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

So, no, Hebrews 3:12-14 is not about the unbeliever. Not even close. I'm thinking you didn't even bother reading the passage.


You need to try understanding it in context.

Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”

This only says that God would never leave us or forsake us. It does not say we can never leave or forsake Him. Why would it say "keep your lives free from the love of money" if it wasn't possible for us to get caught up in the love of money, which is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10)? You can't just look at part of the story by cherry picking scripture like this. You need to look at all of scripture and you need to stop taking scripture out of context like you're doing here and like you do with Hebrews 3:12-14.

Are you suggesting that there are never unbelievers in a group where the gospel might be being preached. Sometimes the whole group is unbelievers. People hear the gospel, some believe, some turn away.

It seems you don’t understand what being saved means.

 

[A New Dawn]

What you call the Biblical standard is just your opinion that agrees with what Calvinism teaches.


Nowhere does scripture teach that God's wrath is on unbelievers because of what Adam did. That is complete nonsense. If that was the case, then unbelievers would have an excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness even though Paul said that they have no excuse for that (Romans 1:18-21). Their excuse in that case would be that they rebel against God because of what Adam did. But, scripture does not teach that.

Each person is responsible for their own actions, not for Adam's. We inherited a sinful nature because of what Adam did, but that doesn't give anyone an excuse to not repent of their sins and to suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Each person is responsible for their own sins and can't blame Adam for them.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This doesn't say someone is condemned because of Adam, it says they are condemned because of not believing in Jesus and rejecting Him.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

This doesn't say that Jesus will punish people because of what Adam did, it says He will punish them for not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

I did nothing but quote the Bible to you. Genesis 3, that passage, clearly shows that the earth and all creation (including mankind) fell, they no longer walked with God (and neither did anyone after them), the earth turned to dust and man had to toil ALL BECAUSE OF ADAM it says. And BECAUSE OF ADAM, sin entered the earth. And Paul says in Romans that “as by one man sin entered the earth, and death by sin”. We are not paying for Adam’s sin, we are paying for our own sins. Adam created the conditions, we live in sin because of Adam, but it is our own sin. And because we sin, we are spiritually dead in our sins, BECAUSE OF ADAM.

 

[Lukaris]

I tend to believe we have a mental mechanism that can be understood as “free will” to do good or evil. This is taken into account by the Lord in John 14 while He asserts His authority in John 14:6. Faith in the Lord & keeping His commandments is our will conformed to God ( John 14:15-18). While the overall commandment of love is preached, we find the primary detailed commandments in scripture like Romans 13:8-10.

Living by faith requires will power since for me to say this is easier than me living it.

 

[Brightfame52]

Jn 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word “can” is a word of ability not merely will not accept. Why doesn’t man have the ability to come to Christ? Simply because they are dead in sins. Colossians 2:13

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The word dead nekros :

1. metaph.
   1. spiritually dead
      1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
      2. inactive as respects doing right
   2. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

A spiritually dead person can only be one thing and that is dead until a resurrection occurs. 14

 

[Brightfame52]

That's what you call addressing it? This is hopeless. You think your one liner responses and your vague responses are an acceptable way of addressing my arguments. No.

What you mean no argument ? What was it you responded to with your argument ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Show us where scripture equates God's drawing with regeneration by the Spirit. Good luck.

I cant show you, God has to do that, you at His Mercy on that. You have scripture shown you and dont believe Jn 6:44,65

 

[Brightfame52]

@Spiritual Jew

You think it was God's will for Adam to choose to sin?

Absolutely Yes, I know it so. Was it Gods will for Pharoah to disobey His command to let His People Go out of Egypt ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, which wasn't the same as what Paul and Silas told the jailer who asked that question. It's very strange that you would not give the same answer they gave to that question and says a lot about your beliefs and how they come from your own imagination rather than from scripture.

So you dont think Paul said nothing after that as to who Jesus is and what He accomplished. Explain Vs 32

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

What was the word of the Lord they spake ? You think Paul and Silas Just kept repeating, Believe in the Lord and thou shalt be saved 100 times ?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Who are you to decide God is not just?

Or how is it not just that God gets to decide how salvation is given?

God constantly teaches us about justice and calls us to act justly. Bible Verses About Justice - Justice in the Bible- Shared Hope International

Would God act contrary to his own word and teaching?

What has happened is that we have taken a literal interpretation of Adam and his sin to make some sense of the death of Jesus. Used Augustine's concept of original sin to fabricate a justification for his the death. Then layer after later through the centuries have added to the house of cards, especially with guys like Calvin and his famous TULIP.

Of course the Gospels and epistles themselves borrowed heavily from Jewish concepts of atonement and sacrifice. We have done our best to make sense of it all but really have failed. The phrase "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" is quoted by Jesus from the prophet Hosea. By the time of Hosea even God was interested more in mercy. And 1 Samuel, "I desire obedience, not sacrifice."

But none of that really deals with the question of who can be saved. It really seems to be a question of the power of grace. There are those who doubt that power.

 

[zoidar]

It IS a work if you make it a stipulation. Anything YOU have to do, even if you place those requirements on it yourself, makes it a work. God doesn’t ask your permission when He saves you. He does it at HIS own pleasure. Period. He does it, it’s done. There is no accepting or rejecting.

I don't know what more I can say without repeating myself. All I can say is look how Paul uses the word "works" (ergon) and see if it fits your understanding.

 

[Brightfame52]

@ A New Dawn

It IS a work if you make it a stipulation. Anything YOU have to do, even if you place those requirements on it yourself, makes it a work.

Amen thats correct !

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are you suggesting that there are never unbelievers in a group where the gospel might be being preached. Sometimes the whole group is unbelievers. People hear the gospel, some believe, some turn away.

It seems you don’t understand what being saved means.

Are you being purposely dense? I referenced Hebrews 3:12-14 where "brothers and sisters" in Christ are being addressed, not unbelievers. Does context mean nothing to you?