No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Brightfame52]

And if not, that is the individuals fault?

Then man gets what he deserves eternal death

 

[Brightfame52]

But you should be willing to address what I said instead of just ignoring it. Pharaoh was given as an example of a vessel of wrath and it absolutely does not say he was made a vessel of wrath from birth. Clearly, God didn't start dealing with Pharaoh and using him for His purposes until well after he had already hardened his own heart and decided to be an evil person who ended up mistreating God's people and keeping them as slaves.

I addressed it already that's why you gave your view against mine

 

[Brightfame52]

But you should be willing to address what I said instead of just ignoring it. Pharaoh was given as an example of a vessel of wrath and it absolutely does not say he was made a vessel of wrath from birth. Clearly, God didn't start dealing with Pharaoh and using him for His purposes until well after he had already hardened his own heart and decided to be an evil person who ended up mistreating God's people and keeping them as slaves.

My view address is your view

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, something different than what Paul and Silas told someone who asked them that same question! That's very telling about you and what you believe. As for me, I would answer the exact same way that Paul and Silas did because I know that they knew what they were talking about, unlike someone like you who thinks he can answer the question better than they did.


I have mentioned to you multiple times now that Paul contrasted faith with works in Ephesians 2:8-9 and you still haven't addressed that! Why will you not address that? Are you just too brainwashed to do so or are you a robot? How can you equate faith with the kind of works that Paul said in relation to salvation not being by works when Paul said salvation IS through faith, but NOT by works. If faith was a work in that sense Paul would not have said that salvation is through faith. Please address this if you want to be taken seriously. If you don't, then you will continue to ignore this point while revealing that you just believe what you want to believe and don't care if you can back up your beliefs or not.

I told you what I would tell them

 

[Brightfame52]

John 6:44 is undisputably disclosing to us that no one person can come to the Lord Jesus Christ by his or her own freewill !13

 

[ThatDumbChicken]

John 6:44 is undisputably disclosing to us that no one person can come to the Lord Jesus Christ by his or her own freewill !13

True. Then add Romans 2:4

"Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?"

God draws us. We have a choice to "despise" or be lead to repentance.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Then man gets what he deserves eternal death

How does he deserve it if it is not his fault?

Can't you see the absurdity of this view. ? That is part of the problem when one takes scripture to be some kind of new Torah,

We are all fallen people. Not because of Adam (who may be the first individual or individuals to make a moral choice) but because we are all on a journey of growth. And we all are faced with choices every day. So the question is, do you believe God is gracious enough to truly offer salvation to everyone or just a few chosen?

How many will be saved is indeterminable and up to God. Most likely everyone but it may take eternity.

The point is that we need to live attentive to the voice of God directing our choices with love.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

According to Calvinism, it can't be the individual's fault because Calvinism says that individuals are born totally depraved and they can't do anything about it unless God gives them repentance and faith. So, what is the Calvinism reasoning behind God's wrath and punishment of individuals who don't repent and don't believe? Who knows? There's no basis for it in Calvinism. I guess they think that God just enjoys punishing people for no real reason.

It sure looks that way. No wonder so many people say, "No thanks."

 

[A New Dawn]

Because it is only by his grace that we can turn to him. Without it we cannot, we are incapable, even the innocent newborn child.

That is correct as far as it goes, but what you suggest is that God should save everybody? For what reason? Salvation is God’s to give, and to decide who to give it to, not for you to demand it be given to everybody.

 

[A New Dawn]

In Calvinism, it means that God ensures that the saints will persevere and keep their faith until the end. But, passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 put the responsibility on us to be faithful and keep our confidence and trust in God until the end. God doesn't do that for us or else the warnings about making sure not to turn away from God in unbelief and making sure to keep our original conviction and faith until the end are completely pointless.

That scripture is about the unbeliever.

Try Hebrews 13:5.

 

[A New Dawn]

My understanding is a gift is free (particularily salvation) if you don't have to work for it. Receiving a free gift is not a work in Paul's mind. As been shown by Spiritual Jew already, Paul contrasts faith with work, so faith itself is not a work.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:8-9

When it comes to Romans 3, I think it teaches everyone being under the curse of sin, both Jew and Gentile and the grim reality of human rebellion is demonstated by the OT verses. I think we read too much into it if we believe it says we can't respond unless we are first regenerated. It can just as well be pointing to God being the one who initiates the seeking, rather than saying we can't respond.

It IS a work if you make it a stipulation. Anything YOU have to do, even if you place those requirements on it yourself, makes it a work. God doesn’t ask your permission when He saves you. He does it at HIS own pleasure. Period. He does it, it’s done. There is no accepting or rejecting.

 

[A New Dawn]

"Representative" as in figurative language. OK

So you’ve changed the goalposts. That makes this a different topic. You need to start a new thread for this.

 

[Brightfame52]

True. Then add Romans 2:4

"Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?"

God draws us. We have a choice to "despise" or be lead to repentance.

When God draws thats regeneration by the Spirit, you are saved at that point and will be converted.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Akita Suggagaki

How does he deserve it if it is not his fault?

It was Adams fault that he sinned, whose else was it ? He made a choice didnt he ?

 

[ThatDumbChicken]

It was Adams fault that he sinned, whose else was it ? He made a choice didnt he ?

He chose to go against God's will? I thought you said that was impossible.

 

[Brightfame52]

He chose to go against God's will? I thought you said that was impossible.

That was Gods will being done.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

@Akita Suggagaki



It was Adams fault that he sinned, whose else was it ? He made a choice didnt he ?

Adam, Not you or I. Unless one understands "Adam" figuratively as all of us every day.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That is correct as far as it goes, but what you suggest is that God should save everybody? For what reason? Salvation is God’s to give, and to decide who to give it to, not for you to demand it be given to everybody.

In that view God is not just.

 

[A New Dawn]

According to Calvinism, it can't be the individual's fault because Calvinism says that individuals are born totally depraved and they can't do anything about it unless God gives them repentance and faith. So, what is the Calvinism reasoning behind God's wrath and punishment of individuals who don't repent and don't believe? Who knows? There's no basis for it in Calvinism. I guess they think that God just enjoys punishing people for no real reason.

It has nothing to do with Calvinism, it is a Biblical standard that is spoken of by Jesus, Paul, and many others.

Genesis 3:14-17 (NASB95) 14 The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” 16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.” 17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

That is God kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden, the fall happening BECAUSE OF ADAM, and the promise to Eve that her descendent will save the earth and mankind. That was the cause of God’s wrath. The whole world, including mankind, was cursed because of Adam (verse 17). What is your validation for believing that we are not bound by this curse caused by Adam?

 

[A New Dawn]

In that view God is not just.

Who are you to decide God is not just?

Or how is it not just that God gets to decide how salvation is given?