Watch: CNN Cuts Tulsi Gabbard Off as She Lays Out the Inconvenient Facts of the Russia Hoax

[iluvatar5150]

Just so I'm clear on the current narrative, is the suggestion here that if someone posts a meme containing misinformation on social media, and that meme causes someone to vote a certain way, this somehow constitutes "stealing" an election?

For the record, I never got worked up about Russia waging a propaganda campaign during our elections. I always thought it was sort of a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" thing. It sucks to be on the wrong end of it, but <shrug emoji>.

Why is it that no one can explain why more than 2/3 of Democratic voters believed the conspiracy that Russia had changed votes to get Trump elected? 2/3 is a sizable portion of voters. Why did that many Democrats believe votes had been tampered with if no one was suggesting that was the case?

Because people are stupid and don't read, that's why. Even many Democrats.

 

[Bradskii]

Why is it that no one can explain why more than 2/3 of Democratic voters believed the conspiracy that Russia had changed votes to get Trump elected? 2/3 is a sizable portion of voters. Why did that many Democrats believe votes had been tampered with if no one was suggesting that was the case?

And nearly a fifth of Republicans thought the same: Russia's impact on the election seen through partisan eyes | YouGov

Show people that Russian interfered with the election and some will jump to assumptions as to what what actions they might have taken. I don't see your average US voter spending the time to dig deep into a large and complex enquiry to parse the exact details. There was a colossal amount of Republicans who thought that the voting apparatus was being hacked when Biden won. They were wrong as well. People believe all sorts of crud. Big deal.

Except no votes were fixed in either case. But there was interference when Trump won. That was proved beyond any doubt. You seem to have a problem in dealing with it and spend an inordinate amount of time accusing some Democrats of getting the exact details wrong. When, as I have just noted, Republicans overwhelmingly were completely wrong on all counts when they listened to that clown show of a group of reprobates led by the risible Giuliani, the idiotic Powell (we're going to release the Kraken!) and some moron who sells pillows for a living.

And you've got the brass nerve to complain about some Dems thinking votes were fixed. What a laugh...

 

[eclipsenow]

In 2016 when it mattered, Democrats and media talking heads were running all over creation proclaiming that the election had been STOLEN!!!

Again - being specific about these matters is important. Hillary Clinton never claimed vote tallies were changed by Russian hackers. Can you find evidence she did? Instead, she made other claims - that they had hacked the DNC and John Podesta’s emails, that they had promoted disinformation on social media, and there was James Comey’s public statements about the FBI investigation.

It was from THESE claims that she said:

“You can run the best campaign, you can even become the nominee, and you can have the election stolen from you.”

The American public often misunderstands public claims and runs with their own peer-group's understanding of things. EG: Climate change, Epstein & QANON, the Birther Conspiracy that Trump himself promoted, lies and lies and lies.

 

[eclipsenow]

Except no votes were fixed in either case. But there was interference when Trump won. That was proved beyond any doubt. You seem to have a problem in dealing with it and spend an inordinate amount of time accusing some Democrats of getting the exact details wrong. When, as I have just noted, Republicans overwhelmingly were completely wrong on all counts when they listened to that clown show of a group of reprobates led by the risible Giuliani, the idiotic Powell (we're going to release the Kraken!) and some moron who sells pillows for a living.

And you've got the brass nerve to complain about some Dems thinking votes were fixed. What a laugh...

Exactly! This just shows what a little NPD in leadership can do to a country! As Statistica says:

President Trump still has not accepted the result of the 2020 election and he has claimed it involved widespread voter fraud, though he has yet to reveal any evidence. A recent Politico poll has found that the vast majority of the president's supporters believe his allegations with 70 percent of Republicans stating that the election "was not free or fair".​

That is in stark contrast to 90 percent of Democrats who think the event was fair. Party allegiances aside, the research found that 60 percent of the U.S. public consider last week's contest free and fair, 34 percent say it was not while five percent remain unsure. This infographic shows how trust in the 2020 election compares to contests since 2000.​

​

​

America and conspiracy theories​

This general crisis with respect for truth is now so bad a number of big YouTubers have done specials on why Americans are SO prone to believing completely untrue conspiracy theories.

This is Matt Bevan, an Australian ABC journalist (who used to go to my church.)
He does deep dives into this sort of thing. Why Americans believe so many conspiracy theories!

Also - having just mentioned Matt Bevan - he did a great piece on Russian sponsorship of alt-right YouTubers.

 

[probinson]

Because people are stupid and don't read, that's why. Even many Democrats.

So your explanation for why more than 2/3 of Democrats thought votes had been tampered with is because they didn't read? You don't think the media and/or the Democrats running around irresponsibly claiming that the election had been STOLEN!!! and that Trump was an illegitimate President bear any responsibility for the fact that more than 2/3 of their voters believed this baseless conspiracy theory?

 

[probinson]

And nearly a fifth of Republicans thought the same: Russia's impact on the election seen through partisan eyes | YouGov

Indeed. The propaganda was so effective that a very large percentage of people believed it was true. Here's the screenshot again.

Show people that Russian interfered with the election and some will jump to assumptions as to what what actions they might have taken.

Use the ambiguous term "interference" and throw in "stolen" and "illegitimate President" and you have a wildly effective propaganda campaign to convince people that votes were tampered with without ever stating it directly.

I don't see your average US voter spending the time to dig deep into a large and complex enquiry to parse the exact details.

Do you think that, perhaps, the words "interference", "stolen" and "illegitimate" could have been chosen on purpose to elicit a certain response from those people?

There was a colossal amount of Republicans who thought that the voting apparatus was being hacked when Biden won. They were wrong as well. People believe all sorts of crud. Big deal.

I am continually amazed when people can see the results of propaganda clear as day when it's on the other side of the aisle, but they are completely blinded to it when their side does it.

Except no votes were fixed in either case. But there was interference when Trump won. That was proved beyond any doubt. You seem to have a problem in dealing with it and spend an inordinate amount of time accusing some Democrats of getting the exact details wrong.

"The exact details"? Are you serious? There is a world of difference between a social media campaign with inaccurate memes and vote tampering. Surely you must know that. It's not that they were just a little wrong about "the exact details". They were horribly, and I believe intentionally, misled.

When, as I have just noted, Republicans overwhelmingly were completely wrong on all counts when they listened to that clown show of a group of reprobates led by the risible Giuliani, the idiotic Powell (we're going to release the Kraken!) and some moron who sells pillows for a living.

And you've got the brass nerve to complain about some Dems thinking votes were fixed. What a laugh...

I'm not sure what you think your whaboutism proves here, but all it really goes to show is that you are wholly incapable of identifying propaganda when you agree with it.

 

[Bradskii]

Exactly! This just shows what a little NPD in leadership can do to a country! As Statistica says:

President Trump still has not accepted the result of the 2020 election​

Exactly. I try to avoid giving anyone the opportunity to accuse me of whataboutism, but it really is a bit rich to ignore the fact that there was Russian interference and complain that some Democrats wrongly assumed that votes were tampered with when so many Republicans, including Trump himself, still don't accept the Biden result. With absolutely zero evidence and umpteen court cases all dismissed.

The chutzpah is so off the scale it's laughable.

 

[probinson]

Again - being specific about these matters is important. Hillary Clinton never claimed vote tallies were changed by Russian hackers.

Perhaps, but she certainly implied it by choosing to repeat the fallacy that the election had been STOLEN!!! from her.

Can you find evidence she did? Instead, she made other claims - that they had hacked the DNC and John Podesta’s emails, that they had promoted disinformation on social media, and there was James Comey’s public statements about the FBI investigation.

So she lied. None of those things amount to a STOLEN!!! election.

The word STOLEN!!! was chosen because of the connotations it carries and the emotions it elicits.

 

[Vambram]

Note to self: certain MAGA types do not like to be reminded that:-

1. Trump has NPD,
2. that as a result, his administration has been documented lying more than any other in American history,
3. that tracking these lies is a whole industry,
4. that they are willing participants in said lies when they are willing to 'just believe' the Trump-appointed head of department / committee,
5. (AKA official carrier of Trumpist lies).

Note to self:

The quoted post is completely filled with untruths and misinformation.

 

[probinson]

Exactly. I try to avoid giving anyone the opportunity to accuse me of whataboutism, but it really is a bit rich to ignore the fact that there was Russian interference and complain that some Democrats

Listen to yourself try to downplay what happened. I'm not sure you can honestly claim that MORE THAN 2/3 is accurately portrayed as "some" Democrats. "Most" Democrats, or "a majority of Democrats" would be far more accurate.

wrongly assumed that votes were tampered with

They didn't just "wrongly assume" that. They were led to believe that was the case by a coordinated propaganda campaign that told them at every opportunity that the election was STOLEN!!!

when so many Republicans, including Trump himself, still don't accept the Biden result. With absolutely zero evidence and umpteen court cases all dismissed.

As I've already acknowledged in this thread, the Republican propaganda to meke people think that the election was STOLEN!!! from Trump was also highly effective. I'm just continually amazed that you can't see it on the other side. Newsflash: The whatboutisms don't play nearly as well with independents who are frustrated with Democrats and Republicans alike.

 

[Bradskii]

Indeed. The propaganda was so effective...

You can keep continue this as often as you like. But if you keep repeating the exact same dross then my only response will always be to repeat the same answer. And to point out yet again that you can seemingly ignore the beam in the Republican eye while refusing to confront reality and accept that there was indeed Russian interference.

 

[probinson]

You can keep continue this as often as you like. But if you keep repeating the exact same dross then my only response will always be to repeat the same answer. And to point out yet again that you can seemingly ignore the beam in the Republican eye while refusing to confront reality and accept that there was indeed Russian interference.

I know that's the only response you have, but I've already acknowledged the Republicans propaganda campaign and its effectiveness regarding false claims of the 2020 election being STOLEN!!! If you're going to engage with independents who are fed up with the propaganda campaigns from both parties, you're going to have to do better than be a one-trick pony with whataboutisms.

 

[Bradskii]

Listen to yourself try to downplay what happened.

The same tune. The exact same line of argument. An exercise in semantics. I'd suggest that you get your own (glass?) house in order before throwing stones. When you've done that, there'll be a welcome for you in what we term 'The Real World'.

This might be a little grammatical exercise for me. How to reword exactly the same response to exactly the same dross to keep it interesting. For me that is. I'm sure that no-one else is the slightest bit interested in reading the same thing post after post. But if you want to continue...

 

[Vambram]

Should you believe this?

'The intelligence community has assembled probably an unparalleled amount of evidence in regards to the Russian not just efforts to interfere in 2016, but ongoing efforts to interfere in American society.'

That's a quote from the Senate Intelligence Committee who issued a bipartisan review of the 2016 intelligence in 2018. The person who made the quote is Marco Rubio. You can listen to him saying that at the 3 minute mark on the video link that has been posted at least three times. Maybe you should watch it.

His view now (from here: MSN):

'Rubio, who previously chaired the Senate Intelligence Committee, said his own investigation into the matter found "zero, zilch proof" that the Trump campaign coordinated with Russia.'

Hey, whaddya know. I guess all that 'unparallelled amount of evidence' simply evaporated. But let's face it: the Sec of State lied to you. Your mission, should you wish to accept it, is to decide if he lied back then, or is lying now. But seeing that Trump prefers him inside the tent directing waste products out of it rather than outside the tent directing them into it, I have a good idea which it is.

And as for casting (some rather desperate) doubts about the bona fides of the CIA agent who was instrumental in preparing the evidence...

From here: Michael van Landingham — CYBERWARCON
'Michael E. van Landingham is an independent researcher through his firm Active Measures, LLC. Until 2019 he was a government intelligence analyst. He was the lead author of the 2017 Intelligence Community Assessment on Russian interference in the 2016 election. Van Landingham holds degrees in Slavic Languages and Literatures and Russian, Eastern European, and Central Asian Studies from Princeton and Harvard Universities, respectively.

And here: Active Measures, LLC Providers of Research & Analysis to Defense, Security, Agencies
'For eight years, Michael was an analyst for a federal government agency, where he provided strategic and tactical analysis across a range of formats to senior policymakers and others.
Michael received his Bachelor’s from Princeton University in Slavic Languages and Literatures. He earned a Master’s from Harvard University in Russian, Eastern European, and Central Asian Studies. Michael is in the process of developing a dissertation for the graduate program in Sociology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He resides in Wisconsin and speaks Russian and French.'

He's the guy who had his finger on the pulse. He's the guy that had the facts at his fingertips. He's the guy that produced what Rubio called an 'unparallelled amount of evidence'.

Deal with it. And note that everyone here seems to be able to pass gas and chew gum at the same time, so Epstein is still front and centre. Nobody has forgotten about it. It ain't gone aways.

What we have been trying to get y'all to attempt to understand is that there is new information which was recently declassified that was not included in any of the previously released investigations. Deal with it. That websites information about that one, singular ex-CIA agent does NOT actually prove that he used to be a CIA agent, NOR do those websites actually prove that Michael Landingham actually did what those websites claim that he did. Deal with it.

 

[Bradskii]

I know that's the only response you have...

If you keep making exactly the same irrelevant points in each post, then it's not too difficult to understand that it's the only response I'm going to need.

 

[Bradskii]

What we have been trying to get y'all to attempt to understand is that there is new information...

I can't wait for the new facts to be presented. I'll bet you're the same. Any idea when that'll happen? 'Two weeks' is Trump's go-to time limit for when there's nothing actually going to happen.

 

[Vambram]

The Durham report is old news and was replied to as old news. What's new? What are the new FACTS that were released - that are not recycled discredited talking points from Trumps last NPD tanty about this years ago?

Newly Declassified Appendix to Durham Report Sheds Additional Light on Clinton Campaign Plan to Falsely Tie Trump to Russia and FBI’s Failure to Investigate | U.S. Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa

WASHINGTON – Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) today is making public the...

www.grassley.senate.gov

WASHINGTON – Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) today is making public the formerly Classified Appendix (“Durham annex”) to John Durham’s 2023 Special Counsel report. The Unclassified Report and the Classified Appendix form the entirety of Durham’s Special Counsel Report.

The Durham annex contains previously classified information exposing a reported Clinton campaign plan to falsely tie President Donald Trump to Russia.

The annex also goes into further detail on matters discussed in the Unclassified Report, specifically:

Potential election influence by a foreign government regarding Hillary Clinton;

False statements to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA court) regarding FISA renewal applications for Carter Page;

The FBI’s failure – under the leadership of then-Director James Comey – to investigate intelligence that the Clinton campaign may have created the Russia collusion hoax. Meanwhile the Comey-led FBI used the Steele Dossier – a Clinton campaign creation – to obtain FISA warrants on Carter Page.

Attorney General Pam Bondi, Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Director Kash Patel and Intelligence Community elements declassified the Durham annex at Grassley’s request. In requesting its declassification, which included declassification of information by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and National Security Agency (NSA), Grassley argued that “the overriding public interest demands the release of this information, and doing so would benefit public transparency and accountability.”

“Based on the Durham annex, the Obama FBI failed to adequately review and investigate intelligence reports showing the Clinton campaign may have been ginning up the fake Trump-Russia narrative for Clinton’s political gain, which was ultimately done through the Steele Dossier and other means. These intelligence reports and related records, whether true or false, were buried for years. History will show that the Obama and Biden administration’s law enforcement and intelligence agencies were weaponized against President Trump. This political weaponization has caused critical damage to our institutions and is one of the biggest political scandals and cover-ups in American history. The new Trump administration has a tremendous responsibility to the American people to fix the damage done and do so with maximum speed and transparency,” Grassley said.

“For years, I’ve fought to assemble and publicize all the facts surrounding Durham’s investigation, Crossfire Hurricane and related matters. The American people shouldn’t be shortchanged or strung out on matters of significant public interest, and that firm belief fuels my tireless oversight. It’s been a refreshing change to see Attorney General Bondi and Director Patel’s increased efforts to bring transparency to a very dark corner of the people’s government. I hope that attitude continues, and you can be sure my oversight work will continue as well, because there’s much work yet to be done,” Grassley concluded.




If y'all would like to read the rest of the information on this report filed by Senator Grassley, please feel free to click on the link I've provided and read what else is there.

 

[Bradskii]

If y'all would like to read the rest of the information on this report filed by Senator Grassley, please feel free to click on the link I've provided and read what else is there.

I did. I read the actual annex. It's only 29 pages, so doesn't take long. Is this what you've been waiting for? There's nothing there. It simply says that there were investigations being done into Russian interference and that connections between Team Trump and various Russians were being looked into (which turned out to be true). And that Clinton and her team sought to make these connections known.

Hey, wake up to the real world. This is politics. If you have dirt on your opponent then you put it to good use. There's literally nothing wrong about it whatsoever.

Meanwhile, back in Epstein World...

 

[probinson]

This might be a little grammatical exercise for me. How to reword exactly the same response to exactly the same dross to keep it interesting.

I like how you term things that are damaging to your argument "dross".

For me that is. I'm sure that no-one else is the slightest bit interested in reading the same thing post after post.

I'd love for someone (anyone) to explain why over 2/3 of Democrats believed the conspiracy theory that Russia had changed votes if there was no one implying it. But you and I both know that you can't answer that honestly and still contend that there wasn't an effective propaganda campaign to convince people that Russia had changed votes in the STOLEN!!! election. So, you'll just ignore it, repeat, WHAT ABOUT THE REPUBLICANS?!?! even though I've already acknowledged multiple times that anyone who believes the 2020 election was STOLEN!!! is guilty of buing into the Republican propaganda. It seems to be the only card in your hand.

 

[Vambram]

I did. I read the actual annex. It's only 29 pages, so doesn't take long. Is this what you've been waiting for? There's nothing there. It simply says that there were investigations being done into Russian interference and that connections between Team Trump and various Russians were being looked into (which turned out to be true). And that Clinton and her team sought to make these connections known.

Hey, wake up to the real world. This is politics. If you have dirt on your opponent then you put it to good use. There's literally nothing wrong about it whatsoever.

Meanwhile, back in Epstein World...

Senator Grassley completely disagrees with your summary and conclusions about that annex.