https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-863036

[Valletta]

Hamas knows exactly what it is doing. Starvation is a bargaining chip; the emaciated hostage is a living press release.​

Evyatar David, hostages are being starved in Gaza by Hamas | The Jerusalem Post

Hamas knows exactly what it is doing. Starvation is a bargaining chip; the emaciated hostage is a living press release.

www.jpost.com

Realize that the people of Gaza continue to allow Hamas to rule.

 

[Nithavela]

Hamas knows exactly what it is doing. Starvation is a bargaining chip; the emaciated hostage is a living press release.​

Evyatar David, hostages are being starved in Gaza by Hamas | The Jerusalem Post

Hamas knows exactly what it is doing. Starvation is a bargaining chip; the emaciated hostage is a living press release.

www.jpost.com

Realize that the people of Gaza continue to allow Hamas to rule.

It's not like they have much of a choice. Hamas has weapons, and anyone who protests is swiftly punished, along with their family.

 

[JosephZ]

Realize that the people of Gaza continue to allow Hamas to rule.

Like they have any say in the matter. Hamas is a terrorist group and Gazans live under a constant threat of violence from them.

 

[Valletta]

Like they have any say in the matter. Hamas is a terrorist group and Gazans live under a constant threat of violence from them.

Most were supportive of the massacre. Hamas is severely weakened and the people certainly could tell Israel were Hamas is hiding.

 

[JosephZ]

Most were supportive of the massacre. Hamas is severely weakened and the people certainly could tell Israel were Hamas is hiding.

Turning against Hamas would pose significant risks to the lives of Gazans and their families. The fear of approaching anyone associated with Israel is another reason they're not going to tell where Hamas is hiding. Who in Gaza would trust Israel after what they have witnessed and experienced over the past 22 months? Maybe if Israel had taken a different approach from the start, the hostages would have been released and Hamas eliminated long before now.

 

[Hentenza]

Turning against Hamas would pose significant risks to the lives of Gazans and their families.

Not turning against hamas pose a higher risk, like starvation, for the people of Gaza.

The fear of approaching anyone associated with Israel is another reason they're not going to tell where Hamas is hiding. Who in Gaza would trust Israel after what they have witnessed and experienced over the past 22 months? Maybe if Israel had taken a different approach from the start, the hostages would have been released and Hamas eliminated long before now.

What kind of approach would you have Israel take after Oct. 7th?

 

[JosephZ]

What kind of approach would you have Israel take after Oct. 7th?

Below are some posts I made shortly after the October 7, 2023, terrorist attack where I gave my opinion on this.

Oct 12, 2023

Israel is not going to be able to destroy Hamas militarily.... The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue. With every Palistinian child, brother, sister, father, mother, or grandparent that is killed by Isreali forces, another potential terrorist is born.

...Until there's a comprehensive approach that addresses the grievances of not only the Palestinians but also those of the Israelis, the conflict between the two will continue.

Oct 15, 2023

Israel needs to focus exclusively on hunting down all of the terrorists responsible for the attack, including the leadership of Hamas, and holding them accountable. Israel also needs to stop the influx of outside funding from countries like Iran. Bombing Gaza and punishing everyone living there for the actions of Hamas isn't going to destroy Hamas or end future terror attacks against Israel. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue.

To defeat Hamas, Israel has to make supporting and joining them less attractive to Palestinians and potential recruits. This can be done by Israel recognizing and respecting a Palestinian state and improving the lives of the Palestinian people. Israel will need to play a direct role in rebuilding Gaza and improving infrastructure once the dust settles from this most recent bombardment. This, along with supporting economic development and offering livelihood opportunities, would go a long way in changing the attitude and mindset of those who live in Gaza. If Israel can show that they care more about the Palestinian people than Hamas, then Hamas will lose the support of the Palestinian people and their primary recruiting tool. This is the only way to destroy Hamas. To make this happen, it will take a concerted effort by the Israeli government, the UN, NGO's, and the Palestinians themselves.

Oct 21, 2023

History tells us a couple of things; first, the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians isn't going to be resolved by war; and second, military force alone can't defeat a terrorist group like Hamas.

Oct 25, 2023

The IDF is not doing everything it can to prevent civilian casualties, and their response to the October 7th terrorist attack played right into the hands of Hamas. The IDF is making a grave mistake that will have negative consequences not only for Israel, but also the United States for many years to come.

Oct 26, 2023
Hamas knew that carrying out such a horrific attack on Israel would result in an overwhelming show of force and a devastating bombing campaign in Gaza. Terrorist groups exist and thrive when there is discord, chaos, injustice, and conflict; leveling homes, killing civilians, and destroying infrastructure is exactly what Hamas wants Israel to do in Gaza.

Nov 12, 2023

...It was a trap, and Israel fell right into it.

 

[ozso]

It's a strange world where certain people side with crazed radical terrorists and vilify the civized democracy they attacked, blaming Israel for the suffering and death brought on by an extremist terrorist jihad.

 

[Valletta]

It's a strange world where certain people side with crazed radical terrorists and vilify the civized democracy they attacked, blaming Israel for the suffering and death brought on by an extremist terrorist jihad.

The evil of Marxist style politics is behind it, trying to always define an oppressed and oppressor.

 

[Valletta]

Oct 25, 2023

The IDF is not doing everything it can to prevent civilian casualties, and their response to the October 7th terrorist attack played right into the hands of Hamas. The IDF is making a grave mistake that will have negative consequences not only for Israel, but also the United States for many years to come.

Oct 26, 2023
Hamas knew that carrying out such a horrific attack on Israel would result in an overwhelming show of force and a devastating bombing campaign in Gaza. Terrorist groups exist and thrive when there is discord, chaos, injustice, and conflict; leveling homes, killing civilians, and destroying infrastructure is exactly what Hamas wants Israel to do in Gaza.

Nov 12, 2023

...It was a trap, and Israel fell right into it.

Throughout modern history the deterrence factor, the threat of inflicting more damage on the attackers in a response, prevents most countries or organizations from attacking. Not all, most. Japan, for instance, knew the U.S. would respond to Pearl Harbor, to say that the U.S. fell into Japan's "trap" is a most unusual assessment. To say that responding will just create more enemies is the propaganda of the attackers. I totally agreed with the Israeli policy of taking more land each time they were attacked. A lot of the jihadists are dead, we don't know exactly what their idea of a "trap" was, but Israel can and will in the future respond to inflict severe damage on those who attack Israel. The U.S. under Trump will do the same. Now what Hamas must be surprised at is the incredible lengths Israel has gone to in order to avoid civilian casualties, unprecedented in world history. With all of the money spend to spread anti_Israeli propaganda into American universities and around the world the truth shines through, and it shows who is good and who is evil.

 

[Hentenza]

Below are some posts I made shortly after the October 7, 2023, terrorist attack where I gave my opinion on this.

Oct 12, 2023

Israel is not going to be able to destroy Hamas militarily.... The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue. With every Palistinian child, brother, sister, father, mother, or grandparent that is killed by Isreali forces, another potential terrorist is born.

...Until there's a comprehensive approach that addresses the grievances of not only the Palestinians but also those of the Israelis, the conflict between the two will continue.

Oct 15, 2023

Israel needs to focus exclusively on hunting down all of the terrorists responsible for the attack, including the leadership of Hamas, and holding them accountable. Israel also needs to stop the influx of outside funding from countries like Iran. Bombing Gaza and punishing everyone living there for the actions of Hamas isn't going to destroy Hamas or end future terror attacks against Israel. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue.

To defeat Hamas, Israel has to make supporting and joining them less attractive to Palestinians and potential recruits. This can be done by Israel recognizing and respecting a Palestinian state and improving the lives of the Palestinian people. Israel will need to play a direct role in rebuilding Gaza and improving infrastructure once the dust settles from this most recent bombardment. This, along with supporting economic development and offering livelihood opportunities, would go a long way in changing the attitude and mindset of those who live in Gaza. If Israel can show that they care more about the Palestinian people than Hamas, then Hamas will lose the support of the Palestinian people and their primary recruiting tool. This is the only way to destroy Hamas. To make this happen, it will take a concerted effort by the Israeli government, the UN, NGO's, and the Palestinians themselves.

Oct 21, 2023

History tells us a couple of things; first, the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians isn't going to be resolved by war; and second, military force alone can't defeat a terrorist group like Hamas.

Oct 25, 2023

The IDF is not doing everything it can to prevent civilian casualties, and their response to the October 7th terrorist attack played right into the hands of Hamas. The IDF is making a grave mistake that will have negative consequences not only for Israel, but also the United States for many years to come.

Oct 26, 2023
Hamas knew that carrying out such a horrific attack on Israel would result in an overwhelming show of force and a devastating bombing campaign in Gaza. Terrorist groups exist and thrive when there is discord, chaos, injustice, and conflict; leveling homes, killing civilians, and destroying infrastructure is exactly what Hamas wants Israel to do in Gaza.

Nov 12, 2023

...It was a trap, and Israel fell right into it.

I don’t know what kind of a trap are you talking about. The terrorists inflicted tremendous damage on Israel on October 7th and Israel responded in the only sensible way left, by force. A good portion of the civilian casualty comes from Hamas penchant of using the civilian population to hide behind which still continues. I guess Israel could evacuate Gaza completely, round up all terrorist jihadists and execute them, and destroy any remaining terrorist infrastructure left. That might save civilian lives.

 

[JosephZ]

Throughout modern history the deterrence factor, the threat of inflicting more damage on the attackers in a response, prevents most countries or organizations from attacking. Not all, most. Japan, for instance, knew the U.S. would respond to Pearl Harbor, to say that the U.S. fell into Japan's "trap" is a most unusual assessment.

Hamas is a terrorist group, not a soverign state or state actor. History shows that military force rarely succeeds in putting an end to terrorist groups (Fewer than 10% have been defeated this way). In fact, more terrorist groups have been victorious in achieving their goals than have been defeated by military force.

The evidence since 1968 indicates that terrorist groups rarely cease to exist as a result of winning or losing a military campaign. Rather, most groups end because of operations carried out by local police or intelligence agencies or because they join the political process.

Of the 648 groups that were active at some point between 1968 and 2006, a total of 268 ended during that period. Another 136 groups splintered, and 244 remained active... most ended for one of two reasons: They were penetrated and eliminated by local police and intelligence agencies (40 percent), or they reached a peaceful political accommodation with their government (43 percent). Most terrorist groups that ended because of politics sought narrow policy goals. The narrower the goals, the more likely the group was to achieve them through political accommodation—and thus the more likely the government and terrorists were to reach a negotiated settlement. In 10 percent of cases, terrorist groups ended because they achieved victory. Military force led to the end of terrorist groups in 7 percent of cases.

(Source)

To say that responding will just create more enemies is the propaganda of the attackers.

It's not propaganda of the attackers, it's counterinsurgency mathematics, and it's been proven to be true in multiple theaters of war over the past few decades and it's happening in Gaza today. When people see their homes leveled, family members killed, or entire communities destroyed by military action, it often leads them to support or even join terrorist groups themselves.

A lot of the jihadists are dead, we don't know exactly what their idea of a "trap" was, but Israel can and will in the future respond to inflict severe damage on those who attack Israel.

Israel's overresponse and collective punishment against civilians in Gaza has guaranteed at least another generation of terrorists and terrorist threats against itself and its allies.

 

[Hentenza]

Hamas is a terrorist group, not a soverign state or state actor. History shows that military force rarely succeeds in putting an end to terrorist groups (Fewer than 10% have been defeated this way). In fact, more terrorist groups have been victorious in achieving their goals than have been defeated by military force.

The evidence since 1968 indicates that terrorist groups rarely cease to exist as a result of winning or losing a military campaign. Rather, most groups end because of operations carried out by local police or intelligence agencies or because they join the political process.

Of the 648 groups that were active at some point between 1968 and 2006, a total of 268 ended during that period. Another 136 groups splintered, and 244 remained active... most ended for one of two reasons: They were penetrated and eliminated by local police and intelligence agencies (40 percent), or they reached a peaceful political accommodation with their government (43 percent). Most terrorist groups that ended because of politics sought narrow policy goals. The narrower the goals, the more likely the group was to achieve them through political accommodation—and thus the more likely the government and terrorists were to reach a negotiated settlement. In 10 percent of cases, terrorist groups ended because they achieved victory. Military force led to the end of terrorist groups in 7 percent of cases.

View attachment 367993

(Source)


It's not propaganda of the attackers, it's counterinsurgency mathematics, and it's been proven to be true in multiple theaters of war over the past few decades and it's happening in Gaza today. When people see their homes leveled, family members killed, or entire communities destroyed by military action, it often leads them to support or even join terrorist groups themselves.


Israel's overresponse and collective punishment against civilians in Gaza has guaranteed at least another generation of terrorists and terrorist threats against itself and its allies.

So all that is left now is for Israel to create a temporary police state in Gaza so that they can arrest the rest of the terrorists.

 

[JosephZ]

I don’t know what kind of a trap are you talking about. The terrorists inflicted tremendous damage on Israel on October 7th and Israel responded in the only sensible way left, by force. A good portion of the civilian casualty comes from Hamas penchant of using the civilian population to hide behind which still continues. I guess Israel could evacuate Gaza completely, round up all terrorist jihadists and execute them, and destroy any remaining terrorist infrastructure left.

Israel has all but guaranteed Hamas' survival for at least a generation by inflicting so much death, destruction, and suffering in Gaza. Nearly every individual there has lost a loved one or has been harmed in some way by Israel's response to Hamas. Many of these individuals will have a desire for vengeance and retribution towards Israel as a result. There are many children who have lost parents and siblings who are too young to avenge their deaths at this time, but as they grow older they will seek revenge. Many of these children will become lone actors or join Hamas or another terrorist organization in the region to avenge the deaths of their loved ones at some point in the future if the root causes of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians are not addressed by then. Evidence of this can already be seen as Hamas is having no trouble replenishing its ranks despite nearly two years of all out war and the suffering taking place in Gaza today.

This is the trap Israel fell into.

 

[JosephZ]

So all that is left now is for Israel to create a temporary police state in Gaza so that they can arrest the rest of the terrorists.

That would have been a good first step for Israel to have taken, but that window of opportunity was shut long ago.

 

[Hentenza]

That would have been a good first step for Israel to have taken, but that window of opportunity was shut long ago.

Actually that option is very much in play. Israel ceases fire and creates the police state. Israeli soldiers don’t have to leave just because there is a cease fire.

 

[Hentenza]

Israel has all but guaranteed Hamas' survival for at least a generation by inflicting so much death, destruction, and suffering in Gaza. Nearly every individual there has lost a loved one or has been harmed in some way by Israel's response to Hamas. Many of these individuals will have a desire for vengeance and retribution towards Israel as a result. There are many children who have lost parents and siblings who are too young to avenge their deaths at this time, but as they grow older they will seek revenge. Many of these children will become lone actors or join Hamas or another terrorist organization in the region to avenge the deaths of their loved ones at some point in the future if the root causes of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians are not addressed by then. Evidence of this can already be seen as Hamas is having no trouble replenishing its ranks despite nearly two years of all out war and the suffering taking place in Gaza today.

This is the trap Israel fell into.

But their source of money has dried out. There is more to the jstor article that you posted, which I enjoyed reading thanks. All terrorist organizations need material and financial help to continue operations.

 

[JosephZ]

Actually that option is very much in play. Israel ceases fire and creates the police state.

That ship has already sailed. You have an entire population that has been traumatized, including children who see little in the way of hope. Any Israeli presence in Gaza will be a target for terrorists for many years to come. The only solution for peace at this point is a ceasefire in Gaza, the removal of all Israeli forces and settlements in the Palestinian territories, and the establishment of a Palestinian state. This would also have to include a plan for rebuilding Gaza. Since this is an unlikely outcome, we can unfortunately expect the cycle of violence to continue.

But their source of money has dried out... All terrorist organizations need material and financial help to continue operations.

People with nothing left to lose will do things for reasons other than money. There will be no shortage of recruits willing to join Hamas, even if Hamas can no longer pay members for joining their ranks. Israel has also provided Hamas with thousands of tons of unexploded ordnance that they are and will continue to use to make IEDs and other weapons of mass destruction to use against Israeli forces and perhaps even Israeli citizens at some point in the future. Hamas is also not the only terrorist group operating in the Palestinian territories. There will likely even be some new groups that will be formed in the future as a result of this conflict as well as individuals that will act alone in carrying out terrorist attacks against Israel and its allies. It's a bleak outlook, but terrorism always thrives where there is conflict and often reaches places that are far removed from it.

There is more to the jstor article that you posted, which I enjoyed reading thanks.

You're welcome, and yes, there is much more to the article than what I shared.

 

[Hentenza]

That ship has already sailed. You have an entire population that has been traumatized, including children who see little in the way of hope. Any Israeli presence in Gaza will be a target for terrorists for many years to come. The only solution for peace at this point is a ceasefire in Gaza, the removal of all Israeli forces and settlements in the Palestinian territories, and the establishment of a Palestinian state. This would also have to include a plan for rebuilding Gaza. Since this is an unlikely outcome, we can unfortunately expect the cycle of violence to continue.


People with nothing left to lose will do things for reasons other than money. There will be no shortage of recruits willing to join Hamas, even if Hamas can no longer pay members for joining their ranks. Israel has also provided Hamas with thousands of tons of unexploded ordnance that they are and will continue to use to make IEDs and other weapons of mass destruction to use against Israeli forces and perhaps even Israeli citizens at some point in the future. Hamas is also not the only terrorist group operating in the Palestinian territories. There will likely even be some new groups that will be formed in the future as a result of this conflict as well as individuals that will act alone in carrying out terrorist attacks against Israel and its allies. It's a bleak outlook, but terrorism always thrives where there is conflict and often reaches places that are far removed from it.

You're welcome, and yes, there is much more to the article than what I shared.

I’m going to disagree with you. Forming the police state is the logical next step after ceasing fire. The IDF is not just going to pack up and leave. How the police state will be formed remains to be seen.