Scriptural Baptism

[WordSword]

Dr. Kenneth Wuest stated that “the Greek word for ‘baptism’ speaks of the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, so as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition.”

When we believed, the Holy Spirit baptized us into the Lord Jesus. “By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.” “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (though the “old man” yet indwells believers, they are new and separated from it - Ro 8:9; 1Co 12:13; 2Co 5:17—NC).

By this spiritual act of baptism, the Spirit places us in union with the Lord Jesus. We were taken out of our old environment and position in the first Adam, and positioned in the new environment of the Last Adam. By that means our position is changed from that of a lost sinner with a depraved nature to that of a righteous saint with the divine nature [not that this divine nature makes us divine, we are only “partakers” and not possessors: “not essentially, nor of the essence of God, this is impossible, for the nature, perfections, and glory of God are incommunicable to creatures - John Gill - 2Pe 1:4—NC). Our relationship to the Law is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint.

This spiritual baptism occurs once, at the new birth, and is forever (most important spiritual growth doctrine from which all growth doctrines derive—NC). The act of water baptism is meant to be our practical public testimony to, and illustrative of our spiritual baptism into the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

Positionally, judicially, each believer was positioned in, identified with the Lord Jesus on the Cross. From that point on, in that judicial oneness, what happened to Him happened to us. “I am crucified with Christ” (Gal 2:20). That crucifixion had to do with His and our death unto sin. “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” (Rom 6:3)

As we are submerged in the waters of baptism we are testifying to the fact that the Spirit has baptized us into the Lord Jesus’ death unto sin. Our identification in His death includes a number of blessed factors:

a) In Christ we died to the penal consequences of sin. “For he who has died has been freed from sin” (Ro 6:7).

b) In Christ we died to the power and reign of sin. “Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin” (Ro 6:6).

c) In Christ we died to the world. “But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal 6:14). Here, by the “world” is meant God is left out.

Hence, we are to “love not the world neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world” (1Jn 2:15, 16).

d) In Christ we died to the self-centered life. “He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again” (2Co5:15).

e) In Christ the believer died to the claims of the Law, as well as the principle of law in general (the principle of law is “he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons” - Col 3:25—NC). “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the Law by the Body of Christ.” Our death with the Lord Jesus, as symbolized in our water baptism, has satisfied the demand of the Law. “For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.” “For I through the Law am dead to the Law, that I might live unto God” (Ro 10:4; Gal 2:19).

f) In Christ we died to the dominion of Satan. “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Heb 2:14, 15).

I. Our water baptism pictures our burial with the Lord Jesus in His death unto sin. “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death” (Rom 6:4). As we allow ourselves to be submerged beneath the surface of the baptismal waters, we are enables to appreciate what our Lord passed through in order to save us both from the penalty of our sins, and the power of our sin (“the power of sin is the Law” - 1Co 15:56—NC). We are henceforth better able to understand and comply with His statement to us, “Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin” (saints are not dead to sin by reckoning, but reckon because they are dead to sin – Ro 6:11—NC).

Now we can know something more of His bitter anguish and cry on our behalf: “The waters are come in unto my soul. I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.” Again He cried out, “Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and Thou hast afflicted me with all Thy waves” (Psa 69:1, 2, 20, 21; 88:6, 7).

II. Our Lord Jesus was not only delivered for our transgressions, but He was “raised again for our justification” (Rom 4:25). When we were brought up out of the waters of baptism we illustrated our resurrection from the dead, in Him. “That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection” (Ro 6:4, 5).

III. Hence our baptism not only consists of immersion in water, submersion under water, but emergence from the water to complete the picture of our spiritual baptism in union with the Lord Jesus. As He arose from the dead, to live in the power of an endless life, so we are to reckon ourselves “alive unto God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (again, reckoning doesn’t establish what has already been established, but depends on it (Ro 6:11).

In this new position of life from the dead, the Word says to us, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you” (Ro 6:12, 13, 14)


—Miles J Stanford (1914-1999)








MJS daily devotion for July 28

“No true believer expects the Law to give life, yet many expect it to govern life. Too few realize that their death on the Cross separated them from the entire principle of law, and that their resurrection united them to the Lord Jesus,” “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14). —MJS

“All of the Lord’s commands to me are according to the new nature I already have. He is my life, and all His words are the expression of that life. Therefore when His words are given to me, they only give me the authority to do what my new nature likes to do. ‘A new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in Him and in you” (1 John 2:8). –John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)

“Does our Father mock us by bidding us do what He knows we are unable to do? No! He gives commands we cannot perform in our strength that we may know what we ought to request from Him.”

“Legalism is an effort to shape oneself to given laws or rules. Seeking to urge oneself into conformity to law, the old man is before the eye, and satisfaction is felt according as there is conformity to a given standard.

“The moment legality is sanctioned, it must be with reference to that which needs to be made subject. This is not Christian, because as believers we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, against which there is no law.” —MJS

None But The Hungry Heart

 

[Hoping2]

Dr. Kenneth Wuest stated that “the Greek word for ‘baptism’ speaks of the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, so as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition.”

When we believed, the Holy Spirit baptized us into the Lord Jesus. “By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.” “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (though the “old man” yet indwells believers, they are new and separated from it - Ro 8:9; 1Co 12:13; 2Co 5:17—NC).

His version of 2 Cor 5:17 must be different from mine.
2 Cor 5:17..."Wherefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (KJV)
If the old is passed away, how can it still indwell any believer ?

By this spiritual act of baptism, the Spirit places us in union with the Lord Jesus. We were taken out of our old environment and position in the first Adam, and positioned in the new environment of the Last Adam. By that means our position is changed from that of a lost sinner with a depraved nature to that of a righteous saint with the divine nature [not that this divine nature makes us divine, we are only “partakers” and not possessors: “not essentially, nor of the essence of God, this is impossible, for the nature, perfections, and glory of God are incommunicable to creatures - John Gill - 2Pe 1:4—NC). Our relationship to the Law is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint.

This spiritual baptism occurs once, at the new birth, and is forever (most important spiritual growth doctrine from which all growth doctrines derive—NC). The act of water baptism is meant to be our practical public testimony to, and illustrative of our spiritual baptism into the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

Positionally, judicially, each believer was positioned in, identified with the Lord Jesus on the Cross. From that point on, in that judicial oneness, what happened to Him happened to us. “I am crucified with Christ” (Gal 2:20). That crucifixion had to do with His and our death unto sin. “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” (Rom 6:3)

As we are submerged in the waters of baptism we are testifying to the fact that the Spirit has baptized us into the Lord Jesus’ death unto sin. Our identification in His death includes a number of blessed factors:

a) In Christ we died to the penal consequences of sin. “For he who has died has been freed from sin” (Ro 6:7).

b) In Christ we died to the power and reign of sin. “Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin” (Ro 6:6).

c) In Christ we died to the world. “But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal 6:14). Here, by the “world” is meant God is left out.

Hence, we are to “love not the world neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world” (1Jn 2:15, 16).

d) In Christ we died to the self-centered life. “He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again” (2Co5:15).

e) In Christ the believer died to the claims of the Law, as well as the principle of law in general (the principle of law is “he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons” - Col 3:25—NC). “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the Law by the Body of Christ.” Our death with the Lord Jesus, as symbolized in our water baptism, has satisfied the demand of the Law. “For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.” “For I through the Law am dead to the Law, that I might live unto God” (Ro 10:4; Gal 2:19).

f) In Christ we died to the dominion of Satan. “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Heb 2:14, 15).

I. Our water baptism pictures our burial with the Lord Jesus in His death unto sin. “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death” (Rom 6:4). As we allow ourselves to be submerged beneath the surface of the baptismal waters, we are enables to appreciate what our Lord passed through in order to save us both from the penalty of our sins, and the power of our sin (“the power of sin is the Law” - 1Co 15:56—NC). We are henceforth better able to understand and comply with His statement to us, “Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin” (saints are not dead to sin by reckoning, but reckon because they are dead to sin – Ro 6:11—NC).

Now we can know something more of His bitter anguish and cry on our behalf: “The waters are come in unto my soul. I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.” Again He cried out, “Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and Thou hast afflicted me with all Thy waves” (Psa 69:1, 2, 20, 21; 88:6, 7).

II. Our Lord Jesus was not only delivered for our transgressions, but He was “raised again for our justification” (Rom 4:25). When we were brought up out of the waters of baptism we illustrated our resurrection from the dead, in Him. “That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection” (Ro 6:4, 5).

III. Hence our baptism not only consists of immersion in water, submersion under water, but emergence from the water to complete the picture of our spiritual baptism in union with the Lord Jesus. As He arose from the dead, to live in the power of an endless life, so we are to reckon ourselves “alive unto God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (again, reckoning doesn’t establish what has already been established, but depends on it (Ro 6:11).

In this new position of life from the dead, the Word says to us, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you” (Ro 6:12, 13, 14)

I hate it when men say one is "freed from the penalty of sin", without saying that we are also freed from committing sin.
It makes it look like one can commit sin without a penalty !
That would be the antithesis of Christ like behavior.

 

[WordSword]

His version of 2 Cor 5:17 must be different from mine.
2 Cor 5:17..."Wherefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (KJV)
If the old is passed away, how can it still indwell any believer ?

Hi, and appreciate your reply! I like everything you're sharing. I think John Gill's commentary does a good job of explaining this passage. The "old man" is not eradicated because God teaches us by using it. It's my belief that man, choosing to sin, became aware of God's holiness. Adam and Eve only knew what was right and wrong but not was good and evil, and becoming part with evil, God used it (sin nature) to teach them His holiness. They did not know good and evil until they sinned (Gen 3:7 ). So now He is continually teaching believers to grow in their faith in Christ's expiation for all our sin.

"Old things are passed away:" the old course of living, the old way of serving God, whether among Jews or Gentiles; the old legal righteousness, old companions and acquaintance are dropped; and all external things, as riches, honors, learning, knowledge, former sentiments of religion, are relinquished.
(for a complete commentary visit this link) 2 Corinthians 5 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible | Christianity.com.

I hate it when men say one is "freed from the penalty of sin", without saying that we are also freed from committing sin It makes it look like one can commit sin without a penalty !
That would be the antithesis of Christ like behavior.

"The old course of living" involved desiring and wanting to sin, and trying to avoid as much sin as possible. Thus, the believers sins are less frequent and severe.

I believe we still sin, but now it's as a "captive," which captivity is against our will (Rom 7:23). Hence Christians do not want to sin intentionally, and this is God's goal for us, not sinning "willfully" (Heb 10:26).

 

[Hoping2]

Hi, and appreciate your reply! I like everything you're sharing. I think John Gill's commentary does a good job of explaining this passage.

I was referring to K West's citing.
And I disagree with it.

The "old man" is not eradicated because God teaches us by using it.

That cannot be true, if 2 Cor5:17 is correct.
"Old things are passed away."
Not just "some old things".

It's my belief that man, choosing to sin, became aware of God's holiness. Adam and Eve only knew what was right and wrong but not was good and evil, and becoming part with evil, God used it (sin nature) to teach them His holiness. They did not know good and evil until they sinned (Gen 3:7 ). So now He is continually teaching believers to grow in their faith in Christ's expiation for all our sin.

Wouldn't that have made the Mosaic Law irrelevant ?
If men knew what was forbidden and what was acceptable, why provide a greatly detailed book of rules and regulations ?

"Old things are passed away:" the old course of living, the old way of serving God, whether among Jews or Gentiles; the old legal righteousness, old companions and acquaintance are dropped; and all external things, as riches, honors, learning, knowledge, former sentiments of religion, are relinquished.

2 Cor 5:17 says..."all things are made new".
That includes "the man".
We are new creatures now.

"The old course of living" involved desiring and wanting to sin, and trying to avoid as much sin as possible. Thus, the believers sins are less frequent and severe.

The things that have "passed away" include everything associated with the seed of Adam; including living in and after the "flesh".

I believe we still sin, but now it's as a "captive," which captivity is against our will (Rom 7:23). Hence Christians do not want to sin intentionally, and this is God's goal for us, not sinning "willfully" (Heb 10:26).

All sin is intentional. (James 1:14-15)
Repentance FROM sin turns a man into a non-sinner.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ washes all the old sins away: making a man totally clean. (Also sanctified and justified)
The gift of the Holy Ghost keeps us on track.
Rebirth from God's seed insures one will not manifest Adam's fruit.
So, we end up with a non-sinner who is completely cleansed by the blood of Christ, sanctified and justified by the Holy Spirit, and fit for God's use.
An apt temple for His residence.

 

[WordSword]

Wouldn't that have made the Mosaic Law irrelevant ?
If men knew what was forbidden and what was acceptable, why provide a greatly detailed book of rules and regulations ?

Like much of what you said, but we will have different understandings on a few things. It's all because of sin, thus "the Law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient" (1Ti 1:9).

The things that have "passed away" include everything associated with the seed of Adam; including living in and after the "flesh".

To me, living after the "flesh" means still following the old man, i.e. sin nature. The old man is the flesh (Rom 8:9; Rom 6:6).

All sin is intentional. (James 1:14-15)

If it were intentional how do we understand Heb 10:26 - "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins." It's about not wanting to sin, even though we will against our desire (Num 15:30). Paul said his sin was always against his desire to sin (Rom 7:15, 16, 19, 20).

 

[Hoping2]

Like much of what you said, but we will have different understandings on a few things. It's all because of sin, thus "the Law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient" (1Ti 1:9).

If they already knew right from wrong, why supply a Law showing them right from wrong ?

To me, living after the "flesh" means still following the old man, i.e. sin nature. The old man is the flesh (Rom 8:9; Rom 6:6).

I agree, but Christians; the reborn of God's seed, don't walk in the "flesh" anymore.
We walk in the Spirit.

If it were intentional how do we understand Heb 10:26 - "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins." It's about not wanting to sin, even though we will against our desire (Num 15:30). Paul said his sin was always against his desire to sin (Rom 7:15, 16, 19, 20).

Paul was describing his pre-conversion life, in most of Rom 7.
Those walking in the Spirit; the light, want to walk without sin...and have been enabled to do just that.
To the glory of God !

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Paul was describing his pre-conversion life, in most of Rom 7.

I reject this assumption.

Paul is writing about this POST conversion in Romans 7 not his "pre-conversion life" as you have written.

• Paul is mainly writing of his post-conversion experience as a Christian; this is evidenced by his consistent usage of the present tense throughout this chapter. Paul will speak about himself in verse 9, but contextually it is not about him being a small child, and certainly not as himself being guiltless, sinless or morally neutral before the “Age of Accountability.”
• Furthermore, in Romans 7 Paul mainly is not talking autobiographically, but is addressing all believers in general as Paul stated in vs. 4 “Brothers and Sisters.” Some parts of this chapter seems to be autobiographical…verse 7 and 9. However I take this as a literary device referring himself in the first person as a substitute for all either Christians or all of humanity.
• Lastly, in the latter part of the chapter he will raise the question “What is the believers relationship with the law?” This will bring up the tension between the Old Man and New Man (vs. 18-25) as summarized in the Reformation era…..the Christian is simul justus et peccator.
• The verse in dispute: I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
• However, in verses 18-25 he is using himself as an example to describe this tension of man’s two natures. Only the believer feels the pull of his sin nature as he consciously, and conscientiously, lives his life in the presence of God, obeying His Word and relying on the Holy Spirit to guide him according to the Word. The unbeliever knows nothing of this tension. Sin is his natural world, as water is for fish. And it is under this standard, the unregenerate erroneously out of ignorance and unbelief, believe they are “alive” when in fact they are spiritually dead.

 

[WordSword]

If they already knew right from wrong, why supply a Law showing them right from wrong ?

Good question, but not sure of what you mean.

I agree, but Christians; the reborn of God's seed, don't walk in the "flesh" anymore.
We walk in the Spirit.

True, even though we still sin because of the old man (Rom 7:17, 20).

Paul was describing his pre-conversion life, in most of Rom 7.

It's my understanding the Paul realized the sin nature (old man) was still "indwelling" him after rebirth: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom 7:18; 21). The "flesh" in the NT is in reference to the old man. It can't refer to the body because it is a thing, that is not accountable for sin. The accountability goes to the spirit and soul, not the body; it is used for evil and has no accountability. Paul was simply stating that when he sinned, there was "deliverance" through Christ (vs 24, 25).

Albert Barnes: "Because it accords with the experience of Christians, and not with sinners. It is just such language as plain Christians, who are acquainted with their own hearts, use to express their feelings.

With me, a "sinner" is one who still sins "willfully."

Thank you much for your replies and God bless!

 

[WordSword]

I reject this assumption. Paul is writing about this POST conversion in Romans 7 not his "pre-conversion life" as you have written.

I like the mention of Huldrych Zwingli, he was a great reformation expounder; especially when it came to transubstantiation.

Thanks for your comments, and God bless!

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

The accountability goes to the spirit and soul, not the body

Yeap.

 

[Hoping2]

I reject this assumption.
Paul is writing about this POST conversion in Romans 7 not his "pre-conversion life" as you have written.

• Paul is mainly writing of his post-conversion experience as a Christian; this is evidenced by his consistent usage of the present tense throughout this chapter.

I disagree, as some of it is in the present-historical tense....(see "present-historical tense vs present-past tense" in google search.)
This tense is used to narrate a past event in the present tense.
The fact some of Paul's narrative is from his past, is based on the fact he is no longer in the flesh. (Rom 7:5,18)
Also, we see some of his past laments, (v 23-24), have been answered !
V 23 in Rom 8:2; and v 24 in Rom 6:6.

• Paul will speak about himself in verse 9, but contextually it is not about him being a small child, and certainly not as himself being guiltless, sinless or morally neutral before the “Age of Accountability.”

Again I disagree.
Who judges a child worthy of eternal damnation before they know right from wrong ?

• Furthermore, in Romans 7 Paul mainly is not talking autobiographically, but is addressing all believers in general as Paul stated in vs. 4 “Brothers and Sisters.” Some parts of this chapter seems to be autobiographical…verse 7 and 9. However I take this as a literary device referring himself in the first person as a substitute for all either Christians or all of humanity.

He starts in that vein for sure, but changes from instructive to narrative at verse 8.

• Lastly, in the latter part of the chapter he will raise the question “What is the believers relationship with the law?” This will bring up the tension between the Old Man and New Man (vs. 18-25) as summarized in the Reformation era…..the Christian is simul justus et peccator.

You must be basing that misfortunate conclusion on verse 18, which actually just makes verse 5's separation clearer between his past and his present.
He is no longer in the "flesh", and in verse 18 is referring back to verse 5 to make it clear he is citing from past experience.

• The verse in dispute: I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
• However, in verses 18-25 he is using himself as an example to describe this tension of man’s two natures. Only the believer feels the pull of his sin nature as he consciously, and conscientiously, lives his life in the presence of God, obeying His Word and relying on the Holy Spirit to guide him according to the Word. The unbeliever knows nothing of this tension. Sin is his natural world, as water is for fish. And it is under this standard, the unregenerate erroneously out of ignorance and unbelief, believe they are “alive” when in fact they are spiritually dead.

Romans 6:6 illustrates the end of the old Paul and any connection to the "flesh" there ever was.
Rom 8:2 illustrates the freedom from the law of sin that all those whose repentance from sin has been true can enjoy.
Rom 7:25 clarifies the direction Paul took at the end of narrative, and of his life lived in and after the "flesh".
He chose to serve the Law of God with his mind, instead of remaining in the "flesh" and serving the law of sin.
So can we.

 

[Hoping2]

Good question, but not sure of what you mean.

Too much time has passed to keep my train of thought...sorry.

True, even though we still sin because of the old man (Rom 7:17, 20).

Why wasn't your "old man" destroyed like Paul's ?
He told us how it was accomplished in Romans 6:6.
2 Cor 5:17 also shows that ALL things have been made new, right after telling us that "old things" are passed away.
You seem to be opining a new creature with a split-personality.
I assure you, no member of the body of Christ suffers such a condition.
The old is destroyed...all of it.

It's my understanding the Paul realized the sin nature (old man) was still "indwelling" him after rebirth: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom 7:18; 21). The "flesh" in the NT is in reference to the old man. It can't refer to the body because it is a thing, that is not accountable for sin. The accountability goes to the spirit and soul, not the body; it is used for evil and has no accountability. Paul was simply stating that when he sinned, there was "deliverance" through Christ (vs 24, 25).

You'll have to read my response to "Ain't Zwinglian", in post #11.

Albert Barnes: "Because it accords with the experience of Christians, and not with sinners. It is just such language as plain Christians, who are acquainted with their own hearts, use to express their feelings.
With me, a "sinner" is one who still sins "willfully."

All sin is willful, as it requires temptation, lust, enticement, and finally commission. (James 1:14-15)
That doesn't occur without some thought being involved.

 

[pastorwaris]

Dr. Kenneth Wuest stated that “the Greek word for ‘baptism’ speaks of the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, so as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition.”

When we believed, the Holy Spirit baptized us into the Lord Jesus. “By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.” “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (though the “old man” yet indwells believers, they are new and separated from it - Ro 8:9; 1Co 12:13; 2Co 5:17—NC).

By this spiritual act of baptism, the Spirit places us in union with the Lord Jesus. We were taken out of our old environment and position in the first Adam, and positioned in the new environment of the Last Adam. By that means our position is changed from that of a lost sinner with a depraved nature to that of a righteous saint with the divine nature [not that this divine nature makes us divine, we are only “partakers” and not possessors: “not essentially, nor of the essence of God, this is impossible, for the nature, perfections, and glory of God are incommunicable to creatures - John Gill - 2Pe 1:4—NC). Our relationship to the Law is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint.

This spiritual baptism occurs once, at the new birth, and is forever (most important spiritual growth doctrine from which all growth doctrines derive—NC). The act of water baptism is meant to be our practical public testimony to, and illustrative of our spiritual baptism into the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

Positionally, judicially, each believer was positioned in, identified with the Lord Jesus on the Cross. From that point on, in that judicial oneness, what happened to Him happened to us. “I am crucified with Christ” (Gal 2:20). That crucifixion had to do with His and our death unto sin. “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” (Rom 6:3)

As we are submerged in the waters of baptism we are testifying to the fact that the Spirit has baptized us into the Lord Jesus’ death unto sin. Our identification in His death includes a number of blessed factors:

a) In Christ we died to the penal consequences of sin. “For he who has died has been freed from sin” (Ro 6:7).

b) In Christ we died to the power and reign of sin. “Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin” (Ro 6:6).

c) In Christ we died to the world. “But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal 6:14). Here, by the “world” is meant God is left out.

Hence, we are to “love not the world neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world” (1Jn 2:15, 16).

d) In Christ we died to the self-centered life. “He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again” (2Co5:15).

e) In Christ the believer died to the claims of the Law, as well as the principle of law in general (the principle of law is “he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons” - Col 3:25—NC). “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the Law by the Body of Christ.” Our death with the Lord Jesus, as symbolized in our water baptism, has satisfied the demand of the Law. “For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.” “For I through the Law am dead to the Law, that I might live unto God” (Ro 10:4; Gal 2:19).

f) In Christ we died to the dominion of Satan. “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Heb 2:14, 15).

I. Our water baptism pictures our burial with the Lord Jesus in His death unto sin. “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death” (Rom 6:4). As we allow ourselves to be submerged beneath the surface of the baptismal waters, we are enables to appreciate what our Lord passed through in order to save us both from the penalty of our sins, and the power of our sin (“the power of sin is the Law” - 1Co 15:56—NC). We are henceforth better able to understand and comply with His statement to us, “Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin” (saints are not dead to sin by reckoning, but reckon because they are dead to sin – Ro 6:11—NC).

Now we can know something more of His bitter anguish and cry on our behalf: “The waters are come in unto my soul. I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.” Again He cried out, “Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and Thou hast afflicted me with all Thy waves” (Psa 69:1, 2, 20, 21; 88:6, 7).

II. Our Lord Jesus was not only delivered for our transgressions, but He was “raised again for our justification” (Rom 4:25). When we were brought up out of the waters of baptism we illustrated our resurrection from the dead, in Him. “That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection” (Ro 6:4, 5).

III. Hence our baptism not only consists of immersion in water, submersion under water, but emergence from the water to complete the picture of our spiritual baptism in union with the Lord Jesus. As He arose from the dead, to live in the power of an endless life, so we are to reckon ourselves “alive unto God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (again, reckoning doesn’t establish what has already been established, but depends on it (Ro 6:11).

In this new position of life from the dead, the Word says to us, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you” (Ro 6:12, 13, 14)


—Miles J Stanford (1914-1999)

Beloved Brother in Christ,​

Thank you for such a thorough post and for quoting respected Christian thinkers such as Dr. Kenneth Wuest and Miles J. Stanford. Many of the thoughts shared are profound and resonate with biblical truths. However, in our love for truth and in line with Acts 17:11, let’s be Bereans examining everything by the Word of God to see whether these things are so.

Let’s walk together in grace and truth, while highlighting some theological errors, clarifying confusing statements, and reaffirming what Scripture actually says about spiritual baptism, water baptism, and union with Christ.

1. The Confusion of Spiritual Baptism and Water Baptism​

You rightly affirm that spiritual baptism is performed by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation (1 Corinthians 12:13), but then you confuse that spiritual reality with what water baptism “illustrates.” Let’s separate these clearly:

• Spiritual baptism is not symbolic it is real and invisible. It is the work of God, placing the believer into Christ at the moment of faith (Romans 6:3–4).
• Water baptism, on the other hand, is symbolic and testifies to that reality after salvation (Acts 10:47–48, Acts 2:41, Matthew 28:19–20).

Correction Needed: You said, “Our water baptism pictures our burial with the Lord Jesus…” yes, it pictures, but it does not participate in or complete our spiritual baptism. This is important: Water baptism does not unite us with Christ; faith alone does that (Ephesians 2:8–9).

2. Romans 6 Misapplied​

Much of your theological explanation relies on Romans 6, particularly:

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?” (Romans 6:3)

Some take this to mean water baptism, but the context clearly indicates spiritual baptism a non-ritual, Holy Spirit-wrought union with Christ in His death and resurrection.

Danger of Misinterpretation: If we interpret Romans 6 as referring to water baptism, it implies that justification and freedom from sin come by a work (baptism), not grace through faith which contradicts the entire gospel (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28).

Correct View: Romans 6 is Paul explaining our new position in Christ, dead to sin and alive to God, based on our union with Christ, not a ritual.

3. Overemphasis on Identification Without Transformation​

You said:

“Our death with the Lord Jesus, as symbolized in our water baptism, has satisfied the demand of the Law.”

But Scripture teaches that Christ alone satisfied the demands of the Law on our behalf (Romans 8:3–4). We are not justified by identifying with His death symbolically, but by faith in His substitutionary atonement. Symbolism cannot fulfill law or satisfy divine wrath.

“Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:4)

And again, Romans 7:4 says:

“You also have died to the Law through the body of Christ…”

This is positional truth that takes effect at conversion, not at water baptism.

4. The Role of the “Old Man” Misunderstood​

Your comment:

“Though the ‘old man’ yet indwells believers…”

That is theologically incorrect. The Bible says:

“Our old self was crucified with Him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with.” (Romans 6:6, NIV)

The “old man” (or “old self”) is not something that continues to live in the believer it is a former identity, crucified with Christ. What remains is the flesh (our unredeemed human nature), but not the old man. Confusing the two creates contradiction and leads to spiritual defeatism.

5. Rightly Dividing Between Positional and Practical Truth​

You rightly quote:

“Reckon yourselves dead to sin…” (Romans 6:11)

But your interpretation implies that believers are dead to sin only by reckoning it so, as if this were a mind game.

No, Dear Brother. Believers are dead to sin positionally (Romans 6:2, 6), and therefore we are commanded to reckon it to be true in daily experience. Reckoning is not wishful thinking, it is faith applied to a fact. We don’t “die to sin” by behavior. We live out what is already true in Christ.

6. Legalism Lurking in the Language of Law​

You mention:

“We died to the claims of the Law, as well as the principle of law in general…”

Here, you are right in doctrine but slightly misleading in tone. The Law is holy, just, and good (Romans 7:12). What we are dead to is the law as a means of righteousness (Galatians 2:21), not the moral character of God revealed in it.

The Law no longer condemns us (Romans 8:1), but it still teaches us (1 Timothy 1:8–11). Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf (Matthew 5:17).

---

7. Deliverance from Satan's Dominion: Fully True in Christ​

You beautifully declare:

“In Christ we died to the dominion of Satan.”

This is solid, biblical truth (Colossians 1:13, Hebrews 2:14). The cross stripped Satan of his legal power over the believer. Yet we must be clear: Satan still tempts, deceives, and accuses but he cannot own or condemn the believer (Romans 8:33–39, Revelation 12:10).

---

8. Final Clarification on Baptism: It's a Testimony, Not a Transaction​

The biggest theological error here is confusing baptism (the symbol) with salvation (the substance).

“He saved us… not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy…” (Titus 3:5)

“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16)
Note: It's unbelief not unbaptized status that condemns.

Water baptism is obedience, not salvation.
It’s the public celebration of a personal transformation that already happened the moment one believed in Christ.

Dear saints, let’s rejoice in the finished work of Christ, cling to grace through faith, and never confuse the external symbol for the internal miracle.
Your identity is in Christ, not in your performance, ritual, or feelings.
Let us preach Christ crucified, risen, and living in us through the Spirit, not through a pool of water but through the power of His Word.

“For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.” (Romans 3:28)

“Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3)

---

In Christ's love and truth,​

Pastor Waris,
"Rightly dividing the word of truth" – 2 Timothy 2:15

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I disagree, as some of it is in the present-historical tense....(see "present-historical tense vs present-past tense" in google search.)
This tense is used to narrate a past event in the present tense.

Typical American Evangelical Hermenuetics: The past tense means the present tense and the present tense means the past tense. Plain gibberish.

Your statement above is excellent for Bible class.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

It’s the public celebration of a personal transformation that already happened the moment one believed in Christ.

Chapter and verse please for this definition of baptism.

 

[WordSword]

All sin is willful, as it requires temptation, lust, enticement, and finally commission. (James 1:14-15)
That doesn't occur without some thought being involved.

James 1:14-15 is descriptive of one who is still in sin and not reborn.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Again I disagree.
Who judges a child worthy of eternal damnation before they know right from wrong ?

All infants are born faithless. This is a clear transgression of the first commandment....

 

[Hoping2]

Typical American Evangelical Hermenuetics: The past tense means the present tense and the present tense means the past tense. Plain gibberish.

Your statement above is excellent for Bible class.

You should have done the search on Google to research "present-historical tense".
If one presents a prior occurrence, he can use the present tense perspective to describe his prior feelings and reactions while they were happening.

 

[Hoping2]

James 1:14-15 is descriptive of one who is still in sin and not reborn.

All who continue to satisfy the "flesh", have not been reborn of Godly seed.

 

[Hoping2]

All infants are born faithless. This is a clear transgression of the first commandment....

All are also born sinless.
For what transgression would they require faith for redemption ?