Flat or round earth -The final experiment.

[Phil G]

Like I once said, I can't.

But you are obliged to. It contradicts flat earth. It’s not something you can dismiss as fake, lies or fairy stories. Nor can you just ignore it as if it’s of no consequence. You have observed it yourself.

It is a major inconsistency between what you claim regarding the earth being flat and your own observation. It is reality contradicting your insistence that the earth is flat. It is exposing that you have misunderstood Scripture because reality contradicts your understanding.

You are obliged to take that on board and explain. Otherwise your claims of the earth being flat are hypocritical.

On Saturday you said that you will have to learn to look at the Bible differently, like what is poetic & what is not. Now you seem to be veering hard away from that because you seem to indicate that your inability to explain what you observed in the context of flat earth is not all that important, not important enough to face your responsibility and explain something you brought up and observed yourself.

 

[Apple Sky]

But you are obliged to. It contradicts flat earth. It’s not something you can dismiss as fake, lies or fairy stories. Nor can you just ignore it as if it’s of no consequence. You have observed it yourself.

It is a major inconsistency between what you claim regarding the earth being flat and your own observation. It is reality contradicting your insistence that the earth is flat. It is exposing that you have misunderstood Scripture because reality contradicts your understanding.

You are obliged to take that on board and explain. Otherwise your claims of the earth being flat are hypocritical.

On Saturday you said that you will have to learn to look at the Bible differently, like what is poetic & what is not. Now you seem to be veering hard away from that because you seem to indicate that your inability to explain what you observed in the context of flat earth is not all that important, not important enough to face your responsibility and explain something you brought up and observed yourself.

Really, all this b/c I can't answer one question

 

[Phil G]

Really, all this b/c I can't answer one question

It’s because you can’t answer a very important question. It should be a very easy question to answer within the flat earth context if the earth is flat. It's a daily observation that anybody can make on a clear day. And all you do is try to shirk your responsibility.

You brought up the fact that you observe the sun as bigger at sunrise than at noon. That contradicts flat earth. And it is your own observation that you brought up yourself.

You can’t just dismiss calls to explain it. It’s a major contradiction in what you claim and what you have observed.

I’m not asking you to explain something that somebody else said. I’m asking you to explain what YOU have said. You opened the door to this and now you're trying to slide your way out of it. But it doesn't work that way. It's strong evidence against the earth being flat. And unless you can explain it, it's an own goal that can't be ignored or undone. So explain your observation within the flat earth context.

 

[Apple Sky]

It’s because you can’t answer a very important question. It should be a very easy question to answer within the flat earth context if the earth is flat. It's a daily observation that anybody can make on a clear day. And all you do is try to shirk your responsibility.

You brought up the fact that you observe the sun as bigger at sunrise than at noon. That contradicts flat earth. And it is your own observation that you brought up yourself.

You can’t just dismiss calls to explain it. It’s a major contradiction in what you claim and what you have observed.

I’m not asking you to explain something that somebody else said. I’m asking you to explain what YOU have said. You opened the door to this and now you're trying to slide your way out of it. But it doesn't work that way. It's strong evidence against the earth being flat. And unless you can explain it, it's an own goal that can't be ignored or undone. So explain your observation within the flat earth context.

The sun & the moon are the same size what I did notice about the moon when it rises it is much bigger and goes smaller as it rises, I'm not sure about sunrise as the sun is much harder to look at.

When the sunsets & at the vanishing point the sun appears to get smaller until it has vanished, but it hasn't really vanished as this is due to our perspective the sun has moved so far away that we don't see it anymore, see the diagram I posted earlier.

 

[Apple Sky]

If you can,t believe what is in the first book Genesis how can you believe what is in the rest of the books ?
Mankind has created a creation story like the big bang, God has one and they have one.
I'm not here to mix there theories, there science with the word of God, if their story/ theory contridicts what the word of God says then throw it out the window.
You say that the Bible was written by men but do you know what, your little science books were written by men too & you believe them.

By Pastor Dean Odle

 

[trophy33]

"If you can't believe what is in the first book Genesis how can you believe what is in the rest of the books?"

... is a combination of two classic logical fallacies:
a) false dilemma
b) begging the question/circular reasoning

It presents a false dilemma by implying that either you believe Genesis entirely or you cannot believe any other books, ignoring the possibility that some parts may be believed while others may not, or that belief can be nuanced.

It also begs the question by assuming as a premise that the credibility of all biblical books depends solely on the credibility of Genesis, which is the conclusion it tries to prove, thus making the argument circular without independent support for the premise.

 

[Phil G]

The sun & the moon are the same size what I did notice about the moon when it rises it is much bigger and goes smaller as it rises, I'm not sure about sunrise as the sun is much harder to look at.

When the sunsets & at the vanishing point the sun appears to get smaller until it has vanished, but it hasn't really vanished as this is due to our perspective the sun has moved so far away that we don't see it anymore, see the diagram I posted earlier.

View attachment 367795

This doesn’t even begin to answer the question. Vanishing point is when an object gets so small that it can no longer be seen. This has nothing to do with your observation.

At sunrise or moonrise, if the earth is flat, the moon or sun should start as something very small, a point of light, and grow bigger as they get closer.

This is not what you have said you have observed. You said that the sun and moon appear bigger when they rise and then get smaller.

I don’t know why you can’t see the obvious contradiction. And I don’t know why you keep talking about vanishing points when your observation has nothing to do with an object getting so small that it can’t be seen.

You’re trying to explain why the sun or moon get smaller after rising by telling me that they vanish when they set. You’re not making any sense.

Please explain your observation in the context of flat earth which has nothing at all to do with vanishing points.

 

[pastorwaris]

That's a shame.
There have been discoveries of Biblical scrolls etc since the KJV was written. It's not even always the closest to the original Greek/Hebrew.

As a Bible of choice, it's fine. As the only accurate and reliable translation, it isn't.

I agree with you Dear Brother

 

[Strong in Him]

I agree with you Dear Brother

Sister - but thank you.

 

[pastorwaris]

I only read the KJV.




I think the firmament may be be made out of a kind of aerogel. Aerogel can crumble but scientist have over come this problem.

Aerogel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

---

Dear Sister, thank you for your creative thought!

I appreciate your curiosity and willingness to explore how science and Scripture might connect. It’s always refreshing to see people thinking beyond the surface. That being said, I’d like to respond with both spiritual discernment and biblical clarity.

1. Let’s Be Clear on What the “Firmament” Actually Is​

When Genesis 1 speaks of the "firmament" (Hebrew: raqia), it’s referring to what separates the waters above from the waters below (Genesis 1:6–8). Later, it says God placed the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament (v.14–17), and that birds fly “across the face of the firmament of the heavens” (v.20).

From these verses alone, we can understand this “firmament” isn’t a substance like metal, crystal, or aerogel it’s a space. A vast expanse, which is why many modern translations use the word “expanse” instead of “firmament.” It refers to the sky, the heavens, and the cosmic order not a material object you can touch or analyze under a microscope.

2. Aerogel Is Fascinating but the Bible Isn’t a Physics Lab​

Aerogel is indeed an impressive material light, porous, and translucent. But let’s not confuse modern scientific materials with ancient Hebrew cosmological metaphors.

If we claim that the firmament is made of a physical substance like aerogel, we run into two big issues:

• We’re treating the Bible like it’s trying to explain modern material science, which it’s not.
• We reduce the glory of divine revelation to speculative physical theories that aren’t supported by the text.

God never intended Genesis to be a chemistry class. He gave us Genesis 1 as a theological declaration: He is Creator, He brings order out of chaos, and He sets boundaries for the cosmos. That’s the real miracle not aerogel.

3. Firmament Is Functional, Not Material​

In the ancient Near Eastern world, including Israel’s culture, cosmological terms were understood functionally in terms of purpose, not composition.
God separated, named, and gave purpose to the elements of creation:

• Light to rule the day.
• Lights to mark seasons and days.
• The firmament to separate and contain.

So the “raqia” is not a material dome or some exotic structure, but a divinely ordained space a cosmic boundary that reflects God’s order and sovereignty.

4. Let’s Not Drift from the Word to Speculation​

Honorable Sister in Christ, I say this in love: we have to be careful not to let our imaginations override what the Word actually says. Scripture tells us plainly what the firmament is for, let’s not stretch it into something speculative just because science offers an exciting material.

We’re not called to merge the Bible with scientific guesswork, but to rightly divide the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15). The beauty of the firmament isn’t what it’s made of it’s Who made it, and why.

5.Let’s Marvel at the Creator, Not Just Creation​

It’s okay to explore science. In fact, science should lead us to deeper worship, not deeper speculation. But our foundation must always be the unchanging Word of God.

As Psalm 19:1 declares:

“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands.”

So whether God stretched the sky like a curtain (Isaiah 40:22), or called it “raqia,” the focus is not the material, but the majesty of the One who made it.

Let’s stand in awe, not of aerogel but of the God who stretched out the heavens, who names every star, and who sent His Son to redeem the world beneath them.

I hope this help you to understand deeply and if you have any question regarding this please let me know and the Holy Spirit will guide us to the revelation of the Word of God.

Grace and Blessings!

 

[pastorwaris]

Sister - but thank you.

I extremely Sorry, I did not know.
Dear Sister, May God be with you!

 

[Strong in Him]

I extremely Sorry, I did not know.
Dear Sister, May God be with you!

No problem, brother; I'm not offended at all.

May God be with you too.

 

[Apple Sky]

Thanks to @d taylor .

Dr David L Cooper.

When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning. Unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths indicate clearly otherwise.

 

[prodromos]

fundamental truths indicate clearly otherwise.

This is what we have been telling you all along. That the earth is a globe orbited by the moon, which together orbit around the sun, is a fundamental truth. All observation confirms that truth.

 

[Apple Sky]

This is what we have been telling you all along. That the earth is a globe orbited by the moon, which together orbit around the sun, is a fundamental truth. All observation confirms that truth.

So the earth is a globe orbited by the moon, which together orbit around the sun, is a fundamental truth ?

How do you know this is a fundamental truth ? It mentions nothing about a rotating globe in scripture.

All observation confirms that truth

No it doesn't.

When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning; Meaning when the scriptures make sense (logic) we are to take every word as literal.

 

[Phil G]

So the earth is a globe orbited by the moon, which together orbit around the sun, is a fundamental truth ?

How do you know this is a fundamental truth ? It mentions nothing about a rotating globe in scripture.



No it doesn't.

When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning; Meaning when the scriptures make sense (logic) we are to take every word as literal.

You have observed that the moon is bigger when it rises and then gets smaller. This proves that it is not further away at moonrise than it is when it’s high in the sky.

You have fundamentally and consistently failed to explain this in the context of flat earth. Yet you still persist in your error.

This shows that you fail to take into account clear evidence against flat earth, even when you observe it for yourself.

The fact is you are ignoring the “fundamental truths indicate clearly otherwise” to your claims.

 

[Strong in Him]

So the earth is a globe orbited by the moon, which together orbit around the sun, is a fundamental truth ?

How do you know this is a fundamental truth ? It mentions nothing about a rotating globe in scripture.

Scripture tells us the truth about God, about Jesus who is Truth and about the Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth.
It tells us the truth about ourselves - created in God's image, loved by him, reconciled to him through Jesus, given many blessings and gifts - but also sinners with an imperfect human nature.
It tells us the truth about the Gospel, Jesus's death, resurrection, ascension and that he is coming again.
All of these things are true - the unshakeable, fundamental truth.

But the Bible doesn't tells us all truth about everything.
It doesn't tells us about the Great fire of London, the battle of Hastings or Henry VIII. It doesn't tell us that the chemical symbol for sulphuric acid is H2SO4 or that water is H2O. It doesn't teach us the English alphabet - this is a fundamental truth for being able to read. It doesn't tell us how to make a cup of tea - absolutely vital to start each day.
It doesn't even say that we can, or should, read the KJV Bible.

All of those things are true and part of our everyday life, experience and history. But they are not taught in the Bible. That is not its purpose.

 

[Phil G]

When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning; Meaning when the scriptures make sense (logic) we are to take every word as literal.

When you ignore clear evidence of your own observation that the moon is not further away from you to any significant degree when it rises or sets than when it is high in the sky, you are not making "common sense". It is not logical to take every word of Scripture "as literal" in light of observations such as yours and many others.

 

[Strong in Him]

When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning; Meaning when the scriptures make sense (logic) we are to take every word as literal.

But that is wrong on several counts.
a) the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, not English. Not all languages are the same and there are some Hebrew/Greek words for which there is no English equivalent. So you can't talk about the "plain meaning of Scripture" unless you know the original language.
b) there are verses in the OT which have the footnote "the Hebrew for this verse is unclear". If it's unclear, even in the original language, how on earth can the English translation give a clear translation?
c) and most importantly, where does it say in the Bible that we are to take every word of the Bible literally?
Do you believe that Jesus was literally a gate, a vine, a lamb or a piece of bread? How are you carrying out Paul's instruction to "bring me my cloak and scrolls next time you come"? Are you obeying the Hebrew food laws? Why; when Jesus has fulfilled the law? Do you forcibly remove other women's tights so that you can wash their feet? Why not? The command to wash each other's feet makes sense.

What happened to your statement that you were going to consider the poetry in the Bible?

 

[Phil G]

But that is wrong on several counts.
a) the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, not English. Not all languages are the same and there are some Hebrew/Greek words for which there is no English equivalent. So you can't talk about the "plain meaning of Scripture" unless you know the original language.
b) there are verses in the OT which have the footnote "the Hebrew for this verse is unclear". If it's unclear, even in the original language, how on earth can the English translation give a clear translation?
c) and most importantly, where does it say in the Bible that we are to take every word of the Bible literally?
Do you believe that Jesus was literally a gate, a vine, a lamb or a piece of bread? How are you carrying out Paul's instruction to "bring me my cloak and scrolls next time you come"? Are you obeying the Hebrew food laws? Why; when Jesus has fulfilled the law? Do you forcibly remove other women's tights so that you can wash their feet? Why not? The command to wash each other's feet makes sense.

What happened to your statement that you were going to consider the poetry in the Bible?

The funny thing about this is that, after doing an admittedly quick search, I can't find where Dr David L Cooper says anything about the shape of the earth in Scripture. He was not a flat earth proponent. He seems primarily focused on God's plan for mankind, Jesus as the Messiah and God's promises to Israel. I can't find a single thing about the shape of the earth amongst his book titles or a google search on his name and flat earth.