How do we set aside the grace of God?

[fli]

You’re failing to grasp a basic part of the gospel. Faith is how we get righteousness, not how we avoid the need for getting it.

We do not do the law to be righteous. we do the law to stay in the Spirit and keep living physically. However, we do it out of love. Because we do it out of love does not mean that it doesn't count. It does not count for righteousness; it counts for staying the Spirit. Because I say we do not have to do it for righteousness, does not mean I am saying not to do the law at all. I am not advocating for lawlessness. I am not saying that it is illegal to do the law. Those who do the law are doing it because they fear if they will not get to heaven if they do not do them. I do them knowing they do not affect my getting into heaven. I do them because Jesus wants me to act like His disciple. Therefore, because I love Him I do what He asks.

You seem not to grasp the fact that if I do them out of love, that I am obedient. You believe that if I do them out of love I am lawless.

 

[fhansen]

We do not do the law to be righteous.

I didn't say we did. In fact, no rightouesness will come by mere observance of the law: 'By the law no one will be justifed', IOW (Rom 3:20). But that doesn't mean that we don't need to be righteous, with a righteousness that is apart from the law (Rom 3:21). IOW, we need a righteousness that doesn't even need to be heard (Rom 2:13) in order to live and practice and fulfill it, a righteousness that 'comes from God through and on the basis of faith' (Phil 3:9), from the inside as His Spirit dwells within us.

You seem not to grasp the fact that if I do them out of love, that I am obedient. You believe that if I do them out of love I am lawless.

Well, we're approaching agreement here, then. Love is that righteousness, apart from the law, that fulfills the law by its nature. It opposes and overcomes sin (lawlessness). It would've inherently produced the obedience that Adam lacked in Eden. Faith is the doorway to that love as faith is the doorway to it's Source, to God.
In fact: "Anyone who does not love remains in death." 1 John 3:14

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Some of these verses especially with Paul is harder to understand sometimes its the way he speaks and other times its the translation being used. Why we should always reconcile his verses by context and the other Scriptures.

For example

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Many take this as the law ended, but if we look a bit more carefully the word for "end" means

έλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

So the better translation is Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness as our righteousness is through faith. While our righteousness comes through faith, does that mean we should disobey God and His instructions for righteousness Psa 119:172 and depend on our own righteousness? Of course not.

Also the commandment to beleive in Jesus does not mean that's the only commandment as Jesus clearly taught

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, [e]“Why do you call Me good? [f]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

And don't deceive oneself that just because the commandments that show us to love God and the greatest commandment to love God with all our heart is not mentioned here, does not mean we do not need to keep. If one of the greatest commandment is mentioned it means both, if one of the Ten Commandments is mentioned it means all James 2:11

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If we beleive in Jesus we need to beleive His teaching or be live them as He instructed quoting OT

Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

 

[fhansen]

So the better translation is Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness as our righteousness is through faith.

Yes, literal, actual, righteousness comes to us through faith, not a merely declared righteousness. Faith is to enter union with God, to become grafted into the Vine whereupon His life, His grace, can begin to flow to and within us.

 

[Dan Perez]

Some of these verses especially with Paul is harder to understand sometimes its the way he speaks and other times its the translation being used. Why we should always reconcile his verses by context and the other Scriptures.

For example

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Many take this as the law ended, but if we look a bit more carefully the word for "end" means

έλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

So the better translation is Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness as our righteousness is through faith. While our righteousness comes through faith, does that mean we should disobey God and His instructions for righteousness Psa 119:172 and depend on our own righteousness? Of course not.

Also the commandment to beleive in Jesus does not mean that's the only commandment as Jesus clearly taught

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, [e]“Why do you call Me good? [f]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

And don't deceive oneself that just because the commandments that show us to love God and the greatest commandment to love God with all our heart is not mentioned here, does not mean we do not need to keep. If one of the greatest commandment is mentioned it means both, if one of the Ten Commandments is mentioned it means all James 2:11

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If we beleive in Jesus we need to beleive His teaching or be live them as He instructed quoting OT

Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

As to what Rom 10:4 means !

And you. do have the word END. /. TELOS and means to. End or. Termination and see Vines Dictionaryn. G 5056

and. read Acts 28 : 25-28 and hereby Paul. explained , Why. Israel was set aside along with the Law and Paul

Paul. turn to the Gentiles , as they will HEAR. !
dan p

 

[SabbathBlessings]

As to what Rom 10:4 means !

And you. do have the word END. /. TELOS and means to. End or. Termination and see Vines Dictionaryn. G 5056

and. read Acts 28 : 25-28 and hereby Paul. explained , Why. Israel was set aside along with the Law and Paul

Paul. turn to the Gentiles , as they will HEAR. !
dan p

I provided what it meant, the goal.

έλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Its the same word used here

1 Peter 1: 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Does our faith really end or is it our goal.

Lets reconcile this with the rest of the Scripture

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Just like we shouldn't believe that Jesus is allowing us to now worship other gods, vain His holy name, steal, lie or break the least of God's commandments, because this is what we have to look forward to with this definition according to Jesus

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Paul never taught to end our faith nor to not keep God's commandments. He said keeping the commandments of God is what matters 1 Cor 7:19

Its why we need to be careful how we interpret Scripture 2 Peter 3:16

 

[fli]

I didn't say we did. In fact, no rightouesness will come by mere observance of the law: 'By the law no one will be justifed', IOW (Rom 3:20). But that doesn't mean that we don't need to be righteous, with a righteousness that is apart from the law (Rom 3:21). IOW, we need a righteousness that doesn't even need to be heard (Rom 2:13) in order to live and practice and fulfill it, a righteousness that 'comes from God through and on the basis of faith' (Phil 3:9), from the inside as His Spirit dwells within us.

Well, we're approaching agreement here, then. Love is that righteousness, apart from the law, that fulfills the law by its nature. It opposes and overcomes sin (lawlessness). It would've inherently produced the obedience that Adam lacked in Eden. Faith is the doorway to that love as faith is the doorway to it's Source, to God.
In fact: "Anyone who does not love remains in death." 1 John 3:14

I have always said that we need to do them, to stay in the Spirit, because we love Jesus. So, if what is what you say then we have always been in agreement. It's so much easier to do them out of love, rather than out of fear. I know the opposite side will say they do not do them out of fear, but if they say they have to do them to be righteous, then they do them out of fear.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Only God knows ones reasons. Nothing we can hide from Him Ecc 12:13-14 so IMO it makes more sense to worry why we do or do not obey Him, than pretend we know other peoples motives which only God can read our hearts.

Its a different argument to say the law ended, to we should keep God’s law out of love. God’s law has always been given because of love- to teach us how to love God and love to man Exo 20:6 John 15:10 1 John 5:2-3 John 14:15 Rom 13:9 Deut 6:5 God’s perfect law converting the soul Psa 19:7 written personally by our perfect Savior. Exo 31:18

But I am glad to hear that we agree, God’s law did not end for His people Heb 8:10 but we should keep God’s commandments because of a changed heart.

 

[fli]

I provided what it meant, the goal.

έλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Its the same word used here

1 Peter 1: receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Does our faith really end or is it our goal.

Lets reconcile this with the rest of the Scripture

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Just like we shouldn't believe that Jesus is allowing us to now worship other gods, vain His holy name, steal, lie or break the least of God's commandments, because this is what we have to look forward to with this definition according to Jesus

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Paul never taught to end our faith nor to not keep God's commandments. He said keeping the commandments of God is what matters 1 Cor 7:19

Its why we need to be careful how we interpret Scripture 2 Peter 3:16

I tried to multiquote both you and Dan Perez so this message is for both of you. I will cite the appropriate scriptures to justify my position.

1 Timothy 6:3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. NKJV

2 Timothy 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.
NKJV

Please do a private debate together. I say this because Paul warns us of arguing over words.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I tried to multiquote both you and Dan Perez so this message is for both of you. I will cite the appropriate scriptures to justify my position.

1 Timothy 6:3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. NKJV

2 Timothy 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.
NKJV

Please do a private debate together. I say this because Paul warns us of arguing over words.

Would this not apply to you or everyone on this forum? That seems a bit judgmental to single out two people, when you have been debating yourself.

There is a difference between trying to reason with Scriptures than what Paul is referring to. My quote to Dan was very much on topic and sharing the Greek meaning so we hopefully do not fall in the trap Scripture warns us of of misinterpreting harder to understand Scripture which comes with a significant warning 2 Peter 3:16

Jesus also told us to teach each other the commandments Mat 5:19 but there is a time to walk away Mat 15:14 when people close their ears to God’s Word, why I usually stop quoting those people and post for other people to see the other side of the Scriptures that doesn’t always get shared or reconciled, which would be profitable to reconcile Paul’s writings to what Jesus taught and to Paul’s other writings.

But I am happy to walk away from the discussion with Dan, that was my plan anyway. We can share the Scriptures but what we do with them is up to us.

God bless.

 

[fhansen]

I have always said that we need to do them, to stay in the Spirit, because we love Jesus. So, if what is what you say then we have always been in agreement. It's so much easier to do them out of love, rather than out of fear. I know the opposite side will say they do not do them out of fear, but if they say they have to do them to be righteous, then they do them out of fear.

I'd put it this way. Man is obligated to be righteous, but with a righteousness that is defined and driven by love, a love that comes only as we draw near to God. Then our rigtheousness comes willingly. I like a quote of Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century bishop,

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

 

[fli]

I'd put it this way. Man is obligated to be righteous, but with a righteousness that is defined and driven by love, a love that comes only as we draw near to God. Then our rigtheousness comes willingly. I like a quote of Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century bishop,

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

I am not arguing with you. I say we need to do them to stay in the spirit. You say obligated. If we are not doing them, Jesus will convict us and if don't repent Jesus will call us home to heaven. It's all a matter of how look at it. Thank you. God bless.

I looked up the meaning to be sure. Obligated is better, We are obligated, because we love Jesus, to conduct ourselves as His disciples.
Thank you again

 

[fli]

Would this not apply to you or everyone on this forum? That seems a bit judgmental to single out two people, when you have been debating yourself.

There is a difference between trying to reason with Scriptures than what Paul is referring to. My quote to Dan was very much on topic and sharing the Greek meaning so we hopefully do not fall in the trap Scripture warns us of of misinterpreting harder to understand Scripture which comes with a significant warning 2 Peter 3:16

Jesus also told us to teach each other the commandments Mat 5:19 but there is a time to walk away Mat 15:14 when people close their ears to God’s Word, why I usually stop quoting those people and post for other people to see the other side of the Scriptures that doesn’t always get shared or reconciled, which would be profitable to reconcile Paul’s writings to what Jesus taught and to Paul’s other writings.

But I am happy to walk away from the discussion with Dan, that was my plan anyway. We can share the Scriptures but what we do with them is up to us.

God bless.

What language do you think the people Paul was referring to were speaking in? It was probably either Latin, Greek or Aramaic. What language are you arguing about the words?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What language do you think the people Paul was referring to were speaking in? It was probably either Latin, Greek or Aramaic. What language are you arguing about the words?

Nice way to set up a question. If you would like to rephrase it I’ll be happy to respond.

 

[fli]

Nice way to set up a question. If you would like to rephrase it I’ll be happy to respond.

The people Paul was referring to were probably debating about the meaning of Latin, Greek or Aramaic words. If that is not the language of the words you are debating about, I believe that the scriptures that I cited still apply.

The rest of us are debating about the meaning of scripture, not words. I you think that I am wrong to cite you and Dan Perez only because we all are debating words then report me to the board.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The people Paul was referring to were probably debating about the meaning of Latin, Greek or Aramaic words. If that is not the language of the words you are debating about, I believe that the scriptures that I cited still apply.

The rest of us are debating about the meaning of scripture, not words. I you think that I am wrong to cite you and Dan Perez only because we all are debating words then report me to the board.

The NT was not written in English so how we interpret words is not necessarily the meaning of the original Greek word that was used for the NT. Words take on meaning and can change the context as was shown by the example I provide, which the true meaning harmonizes with the rest of Scripture.

 

[fli]

The NT was not written in English so how we interpret words is not necessarily the meaning of the original Greek word that was used for the NT. Words take on meaning and can change the context as was shown by the example I provide, which the true meaning harmonizes with the rest of Scripture.

I wrote a ticket to suggest to the moderators that debates about words be for private debates and cite the scriptures I cited to you. It was rejected. Therefore, I will apologize to you. It seems that debates about words are legal on this forum.

 

[fli]

As to what Rom 10:4 means !

And you. do have the word END. /. TELOS and means to. End or. Termination and see Vines Dictionaryn. G 5056

and. read Acts 28 : 25-28 and hereby Paul. explained , Why. Israel was set aside along with the Law and Paul

Paul. turn to the Gentiles , as they will HEAR. !
dan p

I wrote a ticket about debates about words be limited to one-on-one debates, I cited the same scripture plus another on the subject of debates about words. The board does not agree. I apologize to you.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Therefore, I will apologize to you.

No problem, I appreciate that.

God bless.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Rather better to obey Jesus and not to give in to any so-called 'private' interpretation at all, ever, not to seek such.

I was not giving any “private” interpretation, I was showing what the word that was used, means in the the language that it was spoken in, so not sure exactly what you’re referring to by private interpretation. That interpetation reconciles with obedience, not disobedience. But you’re free to make a case based on what was stated on why you disagree with the definition of the Greek that was used, which many turn into lawlessness when its the opposite.