No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Brightfame52]

@fhansen

Yes, no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him

Right, Drawing them and saving them are one and the same. One cant come to Christ and believe unless God saves them first. When God draws you He has already given you a new heart and new Spirit and is causing you to come, its part of the Covenant Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The causing and drawing are the same, the person is saved first !

 

[fhansen]

Do you believe God knew b4 He created them that they were going to die in their sins and perish forever ? Yes or No

Yes, but that does not mean that God is simply incapable of making a morally accounbtable being, who can choose for themselves at the end of the day whether or not they wish to spend eternity with Him, eternity bathed in everlasting, ineffable love, or in the cold selfish pride that so often attracts us from and opposes and destroys that love, that opposes Him, in favor of Me.

 

[fhansen]

Right, Drawing them and saving them are one and the same. One cant come to Christ and believe unless God saves them first. When God draws you He has already given you a new heart and new Spirit and is causing you to come, its part of the Covenant Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The causing and drawing are the same, the person is saved first !

No, we can taste of the heavenly gift and later spit it out (Heb 6:4), we can escape the pollution of the world by knowing Christ and then return to the world (2 Pet 2:20).

Grace is resistible, by God's wisdom and decree. He covets your participation, and your increasing participation. Otherwise He would've jsut stocked heaven with whomever He wants there at the beginning.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, but that does not mean that God is simply incapable of making a morally accounbtable being, who can choose for themselves at the end of the day whether or not they wish to spend eternity with Him, eternity bathed in everlasting, ineffable love, or in the cold selfish pride that so often attracts us from and opposes and destroys that love, that opposes Him, in favor of Me.

Okay you believe God knew b4 He created the person that the person was going to die in their sins. Yet God created the person anyway. Could God not have created that person if He so willed and and prevent the person from eternal punishment ? Or do you believe God thought maybe if I create him and give him a lot of opportunities to repent and I save him, and then he wont go to hell as I first saw that he was going to. ?

 

[Brightfame52]

No, we can taste of the heavenly gift and later spit it out (Heb 6:4), we can escape the pollution of the world by knowing Christ and then return to the world (2 Pet 2:20).

Grace is resistible, by God's wisdom and decree. He covets your participation, and your increasing participation. Otherwise He would've jsut stocked heaven with whomever He wants there at the beginning.

Im sorry drawing isnt tasting, its an inward power that comes in Salvation. The person drawn is saved with a new heart and the Spirit in them. Look at the properties that come with drawing or causing. Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause[draw] you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[fhansen]

Okay you believe God knew b4 He created the person that the person was going to die in their sins. Yet God created the person anyway. Could God not have created that person if He so willed and and prevent the person from eternal punishment ? Or do you believe God thought maybe if I create him and give him a lot of opportunities to repent and I save him, and then he wont go to hell as I first saw that he was going to. ?

Yes, God could've simply not created, or created but withheld freewill from any of His creatures. Instead, knowing the evil/sin that would result from the abuse of free will, He created anyway, and gave that gift, in His wisdom deeming it better to create while planning to ultimately bring an even greater good out of that evil that resulted, a greater good than He began with.

That's what he's doing now. He's still creating as He patiently draws and guides and steers His creation, without force, into willing alignment with His will, into alignment with His love to put it best. That love in us is His crown jewel, or what makes man the crown jewel of His creation. And, while a gift of grace, that love is also, necessarily, a human choice. That is man's very purpose, to know and love God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, God could've simply not created, or created but withheld freewill from any of His creatures. Instead, knowing the evil/sin that would result from the abuse of free will, He created anyway, and gave that gift, in His wisdom deeming it better to create while planning to ultimately bring an even greater good out of that evil that resulted, a greater good than He began with.

That's what he's doing now. He's still creating as He patiently draws and guides and steers His creation, without force, into willing alignment with His will, into alignment with His love to put it best. That love in us is His crown jewel, or what makes man the crown jewel of His creation. And, while a gift fo grace, that love is also, necessarily, a human choice. That is man's very purpose, to know and love God.

Then you have a stupid god. He knew if he created a person that the person was going to sin up all grace and die and go to hell for their sins, yet with his dumb self, he created him anyway, knowing no matter how many opportunities he gives him, he is going to spurn them away and die a fool. Does that sound like a all wise God to you, even a loving God ? Sounds like a fool

 

[fhansen]

Then you have a stupid god. He knew if he created a person that the person was going to sin up all grace and die and go to hell for their sins, yet with his dumb self, he created him anyway, knowing no matter how many opportunities he gives him, he is going to spurn them away and die a fool. Does that sound like a all wise God to you, even a loving God ? Sounds like a fool

A much stupider-and evil-God would be one who simply created some to be punished eternally to begin with without regard to their own wills. But if, OTOH, someone wished to spend their existence apart from God, He allows that, even it that separation, itself, is the essence of hell.

 

[Brightfame52]

A much stupider-and evil-God would be one who simply created some to be punished eternally to begin with without regard to their own wills. But if, OTOH, someone wished to spend their existence apart from God, He allows that, even it that separation, itself, is the essence of hell.

Listen, this is how stupid and foolish your god is. Now He knows that if he creates a person and put that person in a room with a loaded gun, that on a certain day, that person is going to pick up that gun and kill themselves. So okay your god creates him anyway, knowing that day is coming, and yet your god doesnt want the person to pick up the gun on that day and kill themselves, then finally the day arrives and shazaam pop the man picks up the gun and kills themselves to the sorrow of the dumb god who created him knowing that is what is going to occur. Now isn't that dumb god ? Its an idol, its the god of your imagination.

 

[fhansen]

Listen, this is how stupid and foolish your god is. Now He knows that if he creates a person and put that person in a room with a loaded gun, that on a certain day, that person is going to pick up that gun and kill themselves. So okay your god creates him anyway, knowing that day is coming, and yet your god doesnt want the person to pick up the gun on that day and kill themselves, then finally the day arrives and shazaam pop the man picks up the gun and kills themselves to the sorrow of the dumb god who created him knowing that is what is going to occur. Now isn't that dumb god ? Its an idol, its the god of your imagination.

And your God creates the person to be evil, then blames the person for being evil, then puts the person in hell for being evil. That's quite the good and rational and intelligent god you have there. At least the real God gives the person the choice, of life over death, good over evil, God over no God.

We're already in a half-way house between heaven and hell here in this world, where we taste of both. Which will we decide on?

 

[Brightfame52]

And your God creates the person to be evil, then blames the person for being evil, then puts the person in hell for being evil. That's quite the good and rational and intelligent god you have there. At least the real God gives the person the choice, of life over death, good over evil, God over no God.

We're already in a half-way house between heaven and hell here in this world, where we taste of both. Which will we decide on?

Do you really want to represent a stupid god like that ?

 

[zoidar]

Do you really want to represent a stupid god like that ?

If you are wrong, are you willing to tell God is stupid when you meet Him?

 

[Brightfame52]

If you are wrong, are you willing to tell God is stupid when you meet Him?

Im not wrong, read the illustrations. Do you believe God created people knowing beforehand they are ultimately going to hell for their sins and suffer eternally ? Yes or No

 

[fhansen]

Do you really want to represent a stupid god like that ?

Well, I'm sorry if you think God's stupid. But He does things His own way, according to His supreme, infinite wisdom, and either way your God is not a God even worth following. Not a good god

 

[zoidar]

Im not wrong, read the illustrations. Do you believe God created people knowing beforehand they are ultimately going to hell for their sins and suffer eternally ? Yes or No

Yes! Do you?

But I'm more in the annihilation camp...

 

[Brightfame52]

Well, I'm sorry if you think God's stupid. But He does things His own way, according to His supreme, infinite wisdom, and either way your God is not a God even worth following. Not a good god

Any god is stupid who created people knowingly going to hell for their sins, then created them wishing they dont go to hell and couldn't prevent it. That god is a powerless idiot

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes! Do you?

But I'm more in the annihilation camp...

You do ? Then that god is an imbecile. No the God I know He created some people He knew were going to hell for their sins because He predetermined it. He knew what He was doing when He created them, it was for His Purpose.

 

[fhansen]

Any god is stupid who created people knowingly going to hell for their sins, then created them wishing they dont go to hell and couldn't prevent it. That god is a powerless idiot

Well there's nothing really bright about saying that God makes the determination rather than allowing man to be part of it. Maybe if you gave it some consideration you could see why it might be a good thing for God to place value on man's freedom to choose, and why loving Him is so important and central to salvation and why loving Him cannot be love if it excludes choice.

Either way, there's certainly nothing superior about a God who would just create people for no other purpose than to suffer eternally. He has a higher purpose for us all, and we can get on board with that, or not. That's what all the centuries of sin and drama and struggle have been all about, culminating, in the fullness of time, with the full revelation of the true God when man might be ready to receive that light, that love.

Your scenario seems to be that, in the fullness of time, God suddenly gives up and decides to throw some in heaven and the rest in hell, with the directive to choose good over evil no longer truly relevant.

 

[Brightfame52]

Well there's nothing really bright about saying that God makes the determination rather than allowing man to be part of it. Maybe if you gave it some consideration you could see why it might be a good thing for God to place value on man's freedom to choose, and why loving Him is so important and central to salvation and why loving Him cannot be love if it excludes choice.

Either way, there's certainly nothing superior about a God who would just create people for no other purpose than to suffer eternally. He has a higher purpose for us all, and we can get on board with that, or not. That's what all the centuries of sin and drama and struggle have been all about, culminating, in the fullness of time, with the full revelation of the true God when man might be ready to receive that light, that love.

Your scenario seems to be that, in the fullness of time, God suddenly gives up and decides to throw some in heaven and the rest in hell, with the directive to choose good over evil no longer truly relevant.

You sticking with that notion of a foolish god. Good luck with that.

 

[enoob57]

John 12:31-32 (KJV)

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.