No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[fhansen]

You have it wrong, by Grace God saves. Drawing is Salvation begun, salvation starts within Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Its a blessing of the Covenant Death of the Great Shepherd Heb 13:20-21

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Drawing is that inward power, the word draw ἕλκω:

, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

You can be confident that that is God's purpose and yet Paul knew full well that it's still contingent on our remaining in Him. That's why we're told to remain in Him, and to strive, to be vigilant, persist in doing good, make effort, persevere, etc , etc. Again, both carrots and sticks are offered. Some people don't want to hear about those nasty sticks even if they' exist for their own good. Wouldn't want to think God would actually place any demands or obligations on us poor little believers that we might need to be cognizant of. But go ahead and ignore Scripture where it doesn't fit with your preferences.

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:17-22

Jesus had a pretty good idea about it as well:
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6

If you've got the fruit, then you should have more confidence.

 

[fhansen]

@fhansen



yes it does, no life, no movement, action, activity.

That's just novel theory. We can't be raised apart from Him but we're still morally accountable beings, not inanimate objects or beasts-and, again, He's not into producing automatons- beggining in Eden. But when we turn, when we respond in faith to His drawing, He's very, very pleased-because we could do otherwise.

 

[Brightfame52]

You can be confident that that is God's purpose and yet Paul knew full well that it's still contingent on our remaining in Him. That's why we're told to remain in Him, and to strive, to be vigilant, persist in doing good, make effort, persevere, etc , etc. Again, both carrots and sticks are offered. Some people don't want to hear about those nasty sticks even if they' exist for their own good. Wouldn't want to think God would actually place any demands or obligations on us poor little believers that we might need to be cognizant of. But go ahead and ignore Scripture where it doesn't fit with your preferences.

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:17-22

Jesus had a pretty good idea about it as well:
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6

If you've got the fruit, then you should have more confidence.

You have it wrong, by Grace God saves.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's just novel theory. We can't be raised apart from Him but we're still morally accountable beings, not inanimate objects or beasts-and, again, He's not into producing automatons- beggining in Eden. But when we turn, when we respond in faith to His drawing, He's very, very pleased-because we could do otherwise.

You still remain deceived, no life, no activity.

 

[fhansen]

You have it wrong, by Grace God saves.

The fruit, itself, is the result of grace, the life of God in us now. It’s His work, that we cooperate in, or not. So, again, life through the Spirit:
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of Godare the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

But, IDK, you seem to be pretty well indoctrinated with a theology that ignores much of Scripture, reason, and the historic understanding of the Christian faith.

 

[Brightfame52]

All Gods Elect and the non elect are by nature spiritually dead, dead in sin Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13. This means that all men naturally are living without spiritual life and alienated from God. Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

As such we are naturally in spiritual death Rom 8:6

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

All by nature are carnal minded, that cant be helped, even if we are very pious and religious and moral.

In this state we have no affections or motion towards God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Thats why Jesus says of man naturally Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 4

 

[fhansen]

All Gods Elect and the non elect are by nature spiritually dead, dead in sin Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13. This means that all men naturally are living without spiritual life and alienated from God. Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

As such we are naturally in spiritual death Rom 8:6

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

All by nature are carnal minded, that cant be helped, even if we are very pious and religious and moral.

In this state we have no affections or motion towards God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Thats why Jesus says of man naturally Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 4

Yes, reconciliation must take place beforehand, along with the grace to draw us to the God Jesus died to reconcile us with. Now, will we care? Will we come when He calls, or open the door when He knocks? Will we accept that reconciliation; do we want it,? And will we remain in that state?

 

[ThatDumbChicken]

@Brightfame52 How do you reconcile Hebrews 11?

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, reconciliation must take place beforehand, along with the grace to draw us to the God Jesus died to reconcile us with. Now, will we care? Will we come when He calls, or open the door when He knocks? Will we accept that reconciliation; do we want it,? And will we remain in that state?

False teaching

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52 How do you reconcile Hebrews 11?

Rabbit trail, stick with op

 

[enoob57]

It says "whosoever will" meaning that it's up to people's will.

Whosoever will; not willing any should perish; are absolute statements, contrary to TULIP… Which they will write off as a mystery, but the unusual thing about this is, that in all the subjects in the Bible God calls us to reason with him in Soteriology
Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

so the obvious then occurs if God calls us to reason with him about soteriology and the Calvinist claim that the Bible only allows mystery, but what they claim as mystery- is not, it is without reason… irrational because it answer yes, and no to the same instance. When a person considers this, TULIP just doesn‘t fit the Biblical witness….

 

[Brightfame52]

Whosoever will; not willing any should perish; are absolute statements, contrary to TULIP… Which they will write off as a mystery, but the unusual thing about this is, that in all the subjects in the Bible God calls us to reason with him in Soteriology
Isaiah 1:18 (KJV)

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

so the obvious then occurs if God calls us to reason with him about soteriology and the Calvinist claim that the Bible only allows mystery, but what they claim as mystery- is not, it is without reason… irrational because it answer yes, and no to the same instance. When a person considers this, TULIP just doesn‘t fit the Biblical witness….

But it is Gods will for some to perish, the vessels of wrath He fits for destruction. Rom 9

 

[enoob57]

I just thought everyone should see this ha ha… I rest my case… as you are without reason giving yes and no in the same instance… I really can’t reply to anything of this because it’s unreasonable!

 

[fhansen]

View attachment 367554
I just thought everyone should see this ha ha… I rest my case… as you are without reason giving yes and no in the same instance… I really can’t reply to anything of this because it’s unreasonable!

God, in His wisdom, can reconcile the fact of His soveriegnty with the ability to make man a morally accountable being. So it's not either/or but both/and, with man's participation required. The church came to the understanding that God, existing in eternity and in His omniscience, knows our choices beforehand and uses them for His purposes, without predetermining them. He certainly predestines none to hell.

 

[enoob57]

knows our choices beforehand and uses them for His purposes, without predetermining them. He certainly predestines none to hell.

Yes, knowing and causing are entirely two different things… the Soteriology of TULIP is absolutely unreasonable…

 

[Brightfame52]

The scripture plainly teaches that none [by nature] will come to God in Christ Jn 5:40 cp Rom 3:11

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Scripture teaches that the unwillingness to come to God in Christ is founded in mans inability to do the same Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Notice Vs 44 states this inability is only remedied by the Fathers drawing, which is nothing short of the Power of God. The drawing power of God which imparts Spiritual life and strength/ability, changes the unwillingness to come to causing to be willing to come Ps 110:3

3 Thy people[The elect/Sheep] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The person now has a willing mind to come to Christ, the person has been chosen by God to approach Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Thats the drawing in Jn 6:44, its God causing by His drawing power.5

 

[Brightfame52]

God, in His wisdom, can reconcile the fact of His soveriegnty with the ability to make man a morally accountable being. So it's not either/or but both/and, with man's participation required. The church came to the understanding that God, existing in eternity and in His omniscience, knows our choices beforehand and uses them for His purposes, without predetermining them. He certainly predestines none to hell.

Sure He predestines people to hell, He predetermined to create them whom He knew were going to hell for their sins. He could have determined not to create them and spare them the eternal suffering.

 

[fhansen]

Sure He predestines people to hell, He predetermined to create them whom He knew were going to hell for their sins. He could have determined not to create them and spare them the eternal suffering.

But He left it up to them. He didn't create them to sin; He wants none to perish but all to repent, 1 Pet 2:9

 

[fhansen]

The scripture plainly teaches that none [by nature] will come to God in Christ Jn 5:40 cp Rom 3:11

Yes, no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him. And yet that man can still refuse to come, or can turn around and leave later, even with that grace. Beleivers still battle with pride and the sin it leads to.

"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God." John 12:42-43

"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven." Matt 10:32-33

 

[Brightfame52]

But He left it up to them. He didn't create them to sin; He wants none to perish but all to repent, 1 Pet 2:9

Do you believe God knew b4 He created them that they were going to die in their sins and perish forever ? Yes or No