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Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

SabbathBlessings

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All 10 commandments ARE SUMMED UP in these two commandments. It doesn’t get any clearer than this.

Agreed, its what I said preciously quoting from Paul and Jesus.

The summary does not delete the details. I do not know how the greatest commandment to love thy God with all thy heart soul and mind would have a stipulation we can love God with all our heart, but worship other others gods, bow to idols, vain His holy name, profane Christ by breaking His holy Sabbath day or love thy neighbor by stealing from them or lying to them, or murdering them.

The summary does not delete all of these details. It's like the summary of the of the constitution is justice, but it doesn't delete all of the amendments. Its just silly talk.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Let’s not take away the authority of God for Him to claim what are His commandments. Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 He wrote them He spoke them Exo 31:18, He numbered them by design not 613, not 9, but Ten Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 He claimed them as His Exo 20:6 it is God's Testimony Exo 31:18. He promised not to alter Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18 Jesus taught to keep them and condemned those who don't Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 etc. this argument is not really with me.

Guess all will get sorted out at His soon return.
 
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Hentenza

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Agreed, its what I said preciously quoting from Paul and Jesus.

The summary does not delete the details. I do not know how the greatest commandment to love thy God with all thy heart soul and mind would have a stipulation we can love God with all our heart, but worship other others gods, bow to idols, vain His holy name, profane Christ by breaking His holy Sabbath day or love thy neighbor by stealing from them or lying to them, or murdering them.

The summary does not delete all of these details. It's like the summary of the of the constitution is justice, but it doesn't delete all of the amendments. Its just silly talk.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Let’s not take away the authority of God for Him to claim what are His commandments. Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 He wrote them He spoke them Exo 31:18,His Testimony Exo 31:18 He numbered them by design not 613, not 9, but Ten Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13. He claimed them as His Exo 20:6 He promised not to alter Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18 Jesus taught to keep them and condemned those who don't Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 etc. this argument is not really with me.

Guess all will get sorted out at His soon return.
Nice deflection. I know you are probably running away as fast as you can from Galatians 3 but you are going to have to confront it at some point. Address my post. Nothing that I posted leads to your erroneous conclusion above.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Nice deflection. I know you are probably running away as fast as you can from Galatians 3 but you are going to have to confront it at some point. Address my post. Nothing that I posted leads to your erroneous conclusion above.
Responding to exactly what you were talking about is not "deflection"

I have addressed Galatians many times and the verse you keep quoting is out of context when applying to the Ten Commandments including the 4th commandment. The 4th commandment isn't even mentioned once in all of Galatians.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

The Book of the law was what was place outside/besides the ark of the covenant. The Ten Commandments was placed inside.

What Moses wrote

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

The Ten Commandments is what God wrote- His covenant, His commandments, not Moses.

Until one understands the differences in these laws, chances are they will continue to both be quoted out of context.
 
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Hentenza

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XrxrX

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Responding to exactly what you were talking about is not "deflection"

I have addressed Galatians many times and the verse you keep quoting is out of context when applying to the Ten Commandments including the 4th commandment. The 4th commandment isn't even mentioned once in all of Galatians.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

The Book of the law was what was place outside/besides the ark of the covenant. The Ten Commandments was placed inside.

What Moses wrote

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

The Ten Commandments is what God wrote- His covenant, His commandments, not Moses.

Until one understands the differences in these laws, chances are they will continue to both be quoted out of context.
So what is your point in the Book of the Law placed outside and the Tablets inside? The "10 Commandments" is still called the "ministry of death and condemnation", that its "glory" was to literally fade and be replaced by a more glorious Ministry of the Spirit.
 
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Leaf473

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So what is your point in the Book of the Law placed outside and the Tablets inside?
I can't speak for other people, but from what I've read from Seventh-Day observers here, it seems to make the Ten Commandments more important.

I think that would be an opinion. We could also say that the book of the law is more important because it's accessible to the people

I have hidden your word in my heart - that's Psalm 119, I think

The "10 Commandments" is still called the "ministry of death and condemnation", that its "glory" was to literally fade and be replaced by a more glorious Ministry of the Spirit.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So what is your point in the Book of the Law placed outside and the Tablets inside?
Context. The Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses or what is written in the book of the law are different laws that serve different purposes.
The "10 Commandments" is still called the "ministry of death and condemnation",
The Ten Commandments is what reveals sin Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 and the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23

The law is not the issue, the law is holy, just and good Rom 7:12 perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 sin is the issue not God's Law and Testimony Exo 31:18
that its "glory" was to literally fade and be replaced by a more glorious Ministry of the Spirit.
I know this is a popular teaching, but is it what the Bible teaches. It wasn't the glory of the Ten Commandments that fades. Lets look a bit deeper...


2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

When Moses came down from Mt Sinai and was in the presence of God his face shown where the people of Israel could not look at his face and why he had to wear a veil.

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

What was more glorious is the veil was removed and the face of Jesus replaced the face of Moses ministering through His Spirit John 14:15-18 in the New Covenant

2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

God's law went from tables of stone to tablets of the heart. The location changed where they were written, not the law itself.


2Co 3:3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

We can't fix the outside if the inside is broken. This is what the New Covenant is about. If our thoughts of lust towards someone we ought not to are removed "the heart problem", than thou shalt not commit adultery would automatically be kept. If our thoughts of anger and contempt turn into love and compassion, thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept. This is the experience we are to have in the New Covenant, but sin is still sin in the NC and it is still breaking God's Law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Mat 5:19-30 so if we are still clinging to our life of sin and not coming to the light of God's Truth Psa 119:151, chances are we are not living in the NC, but still in the OC. God will help us overcome any issue we have through His Spirits, but when we don't allow God to be God to define sin and His own laws- we are still living in the flesh and are an enmity against God Rom 8:7-8. We need to confess and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 sadly most people think once they come to Jesus, we can stay the same, but its not the NC experience we are told. Rom 8:12-13 Rom 6:1-4 etc
 
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XrxrX

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Context. The Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses or what is written in the book of the law are different laws that serve different purposes.

The Ten Commandments is what reveals sin Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 and the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23

The law is not the issue, the law is holy, just and good Rom 7:12 perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 sin is the issue not God's Law

I know this is a popular teaching, but is it what the Bible teaches. Lets look a bit deeper...


2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

When Moses came down from Mt Sinai and was in the presence of God his face shown where the people of Israel could not look at his face and why he had to wear a veil.

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

What was more glorious is the veil was removed and the face of Jesus replaced the face of Moses ministering through His Spirit John 14:15-18 in the New Covenant
You've subtly twisted the meaning of this passage. It's not the "veil taken from Moses' face" that reveals a greater glory, it is the surpassing glory of the Ministry of the Spirit.. that Surpasses the fading glory of the ministry of death. So, out of the gate you've misrepresented the word.
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

God's law went from tables of stone to tablets of the heart. The location changed where they were written, not the law itself.
I've heard this case over and over, yet it doesn't stand..
"We know that what the Law says, it says to those under the Law..." and yet:
"For when the Gentiles, which have Not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having Not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law Written In Their Hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;.."
Also, "It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God."
"Then all your sons will be taught by the LORD.."
"For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.."
It clearly isn't the old "tutor" teaching Believers.



2Co 3:3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

We can't fix the outside if the inside is broken. This is what the New Covenant is about. If our thoughts of lust towards someone we ought not to are removed "the heart problem", than thou shalt not commit adultery would automatically be kept. If our thoughts of anger and contempt turn into love and compassion, thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept. This is the experience we are to have in the New Covenant, but sin is still sin in the NC and it is still breaking God's Law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Mat 5:19-30 so if we are still clinging to our life of sin and not coming to the light of God's Truth Psa 119:151, chances are we are not living in the NC, but still in the OC. God will help us overcome any issue we have through His Spirits, but when we don't allow God to be God to define sin and His own laws- we are still living in the flesh and are an enmity against God Rom 8:7-8. We need to confess and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 sadly most people think once they come to Jesus, we can stay the same, but its not the NC experience we are told. Rom 8:12-13 Rom 6:1-4 etc
We don't need to "read" a letter that kills to know not to murder. You are conflating that which is clearly a dead ministry with a Living Ministry. Dead to sin, Alive to Christ.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You've subtly twisted the meaning of this passage. It's not the "veil taken from Moses' face" that reveals a greater glory, it is the surpassing glory of the Ministry of the Spirit.. that Surpasses the fading glory of the ministry of death. So, out of the gate you've misrepresented the word.
Not at all, Paul is quoting OT.

Exo 34:29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. 30 So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him. 31 Then Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him; and Moses talked with them. 32 Afterward all the children of Israel came near, and he gave them as commandments all that the Lord had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. 33 And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face. 34 But whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. 35 And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.

Whose face is now in the New Covenant? Jesus. There is no veil on Jesus we can go directly to Him as He is our High Priest and Mediator of the New Covenant.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

1 Tim 2:For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I've heard this case over and over, yet it doesn't stand..
"We know that what the Law says, it says to those under the Law..." and yet:
"For when the Gentiles, which have Not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having Not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law Written In Their Hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;.."
Also, "It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God."
"Then all your sons will be taught by the LORD.."
"For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.."
It clearly isn't the old "tutor" teaching Believers.
You are not staying in the context of this passage. I can see why you want to move away from the context of the passage we were discussing because it doesn't say what you want it to.

But if you want to go here thats fine..

The phase "under the law" means under the condemnation of the law, the wages of sin is death, again obeying God and His Law is not what is bad, sadly the other spirit has done a good job of twisting this. Breaking God's law is sin 1 John 3:4 and under condemnation Rom 6:23

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become [a]guilty before God.

We are all under the condemnation of the law unless, we are keeping it through the power of the Holy Spirit John 14:15-18

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Rom 8:1 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, (sin) but according to the Spirit.

Sin is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:11-12

If we are not ministering through the Spirit and keeping God's law, than our master is someone other than God, sadly many don't even realize this. It’s the deceitfulness of sin Heb 3:13 that many have harden their heart to and won't allow God to define sin or His law which He does. What the Holy Spirit is calling us out of if we hear Him Heb 3:7-19

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


We don't need to "read" a letter that kills to know not to murder. You are conflating that which is clearly a dead ministry with a Living Ministry. Dead to sin, Alive to Christ.

According to Paul he needed the law to know what sin is. Are we really more wise than he was?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

The issue is people want to go based on what feels right to them, and depend on their own version of right and wrong (righteousness) instead of God's Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-2. Our version is filthy rags and our heart deceitful Jer 17:9

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
 
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Leaf473

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Non-Christians need the law to tell them what sin is.

Born again believers have the Holy Spirit who leads them into all truth

It's true that what was sin remains sin. But commandments can be misunderstood. The Sabbath commandment can be misapplied just like the commandment to honor your father and mother can be misapplied

"Never let loving devotion or faithfulness leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart" Proverbs 3
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So now Paul is a non-Christian. Rom 7:7 o_O

Those who believe God to tell us what sin is are non-Christians, but those who make up their own version of what sin is are Christians.

Not a doctrine coming from the Bible. The Holy Spirit leads us to what God said John 14:26 , not against what He said. That's the other spirit we were warned about Isa 8:20
 
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Leaf473

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Note the verb tenses


Earlier in that same chapter, For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death

Those who follow the Holy Spirit are Christians, yes.

"You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever"
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Paul needed the law to define what sin is, claiming he is not a Christian for doing so, I beleive is a deception. Just like relying on what feels right with us to determine what is right and wrong (righteousness) is another one Jer 17:9 instead of allowing God to define what His Laws are and what is sin, which He does plainly.

Not sure why people believe that God's Law is in conflict with God's Spirit, when the opposite is said in Scripture. 1 John 3:24 John 14:15-18 Another deceptiveness of sin. Heb 3:13 but if we define sin and not God, I guess that's why its so deceptive.
 
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Leaf473

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Again, the verb tenses

"I would not have known"

Yes, Paul needed the law. "Needed" past tense

The earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof, the world and all who dwell therein.
For He has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the waters Psalm 24
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Its past tense because the law was given ages before him as the definition of what is sin. 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12
I would not have known sin except through the law I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
Not past tense that he can now casts aside the commandments of God and rely on his own righteousness. No where does the Text say Paul needed the law to be past tense. Our thoughts and ideas are not Scripture.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

No wonder why Jesus said "whoever" breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to break will be least in heaven. According to the next verse, means not there, as we would be committing sin and in fear of Judgement. Mat 5:19-30 Its best to let God be God to define His laws and what sin is. If we don't allow God to be God we will end up covering our sins instead of forsaking (turning from) them through Christ Pro 28:13 and not a place we want to be when Jesus comes. Rev 22:11

Guess it will all get sorted out soon enough.
 
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Leaf473

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There was a time when Paul was not a Christian. At that time, he needed the law to tell him what sin was. He "would not have known".

Then he became a Christian.

He talks about a woman who is married. When she's married, she needs her husband. When the husband dies, she no longer needs him (we're not talking about grief or financial support here)

The woman whose husband has died at some point moves on.

Such is the generation of those who seek Him, who seek Your face, O God of Jacob Psalm 24
 
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Hentenza

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The ever changing argument. Romans was written after his conversion.
And his anecdotes and experiences come from pre and post conversions. I guess ignoring the obvious does lead to error.

BTW: You still have not addressed Galatians 3. The silence is very telling.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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And his anecdotes and experiences come from pre and post conversions. I guess ignoring the obvious does lead to error.
Sure, but not what was stated in Romans.
BTW: You still have not addressed Galatians 3. The silence is very telling.
I addressed it yesterday


Nice deflection. I know you are probably running away as fast as you can from Galatians 3 but you are going to have to confront it at some point. Address my post. Nothing that I posted leads to your erroneous conclusion above.
Responding to exactly what you were talking about is not "deflection"

I have addressed Galatians many times and the verse you keep quoting is out of context when applying to the Ten Commandments including the 4th commandment. The 4th commandment isn't even mentioned once in all of Galatians.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

The Book of the law was what was place outside/besides the ark of the covenant. The Ten Commandments was placed inside.

What Moses wrote

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

The Ten Commandments is what God wrote- His covenant, His commandments, not Moses.

Until one understands the differences in these laws, chances are they will continue to both be quoted out of context.
 
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Leaf473

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Paul often refers to the past

I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, how often I planned to come to you (but have been prevented from visiting until now), in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles Romans 1
 
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