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Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Bob S

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Yes, the "Way of the Lord" that the Jesus "of the bible" and Paul, and the Church of God under His Prophesied New Priesthood Covenant walked in, and taught others to "walk in", are moral. They define God's Righteousness, they define "Holiness" so that we can "Yield ourselves" to God, as Paul teaches, and be Holy for HE is Holy, as we are also instructed to be.

This Lord who defines theses things, AKA, "The Christ" who led Israel out of Sin (Egypt,) became flesh in the person of Jesus, at least according to scriptures.
the above doesn't seem to be even close to commenting on my statement. Where are you coming from?
Eph. 2 isn't talking about the Commandments or Ordinances that God gave Israel.
That is strictly your opinion, and your opinion is wrong. Where do you get these beliefs? Jesus could only change or remove laws that He made. Pharisees were free agents, not robots. They could make or break laws just as we can today. Since the Pharisees were free to make their own laws, Jesus could not have taken them away. How on Earth did you come up with the idea that Eph 2 account meant Jesus destroyed man's commandments????. While on Earth, He only pointed out how wrong they were. Jesus is not a dictator. Only once time did Jesus display how He detested the money tables at the Temple and overturned them, but He couldn't stop them from setting them back.
That is the deception, the insidious lie. The teaching that it does is one of many lies and falsehoods being promoted by this world's religious system, "Who call Jesus Lord, Lord". Jesus and Paul both warn us about these deceivers "who come in Christ's Name".
Nice comment, eh!
 
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Bob S

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No one is saved by keeping God's laws- keeping God's laws is a consequence of our salvation, not a means to it.
I take it from what you wrote that once we are saved, we will be able to keep God's laws. In other words, do we become robots? God gave the Israelites the Ten Commandments for them to keep. Is there any evidence that they were saved? Nine of the Ten could be kept out of duty. The requirements of the fourth one made it impossible to keep. Everyone thinks about and talks about issues of everyday life. Preachers are a great example of preaching about secular things Keeping Sabbath is a big misnomer.
Just like for Abraham

Gen 26: 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Was ole Abe a perfect example of righteousness? He lied about Sarah, had concubines, and took Sarah's handmaiden.
 
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ralliann

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Yes, the "Way of the Lord" that the Jesus "of the bible" and Paul, and the Church of God under His Prophesied New Priesthood Covenant walked in, and taught others to "walk in", are moral. They define God's Righteousness, they define "Holiness" so that we can "Yield ourselves" to God, as Paul teaches, and be Holy for HE is Holy, as we are also instructed to be.

This Lord who defines theses things, AKA, "The Christ" who led Israel out of Sin (Egypt,) became flesh in the person of Jesus, at least according to scriptures.



Eph. 2 isn't talking about the Commandments or Ordinances that God gave Israel. That is the deception, the insidious lie. The teaching that it does is one of many lies and falsehoods being promoted by this world's religious system, "Who call Jesus Lord, Lord". Jesus and Paul both warn us about these deceivers "who come in Christ's Name".

This is the reason for my reply, to show that according to Scriptures, the teaching that it was God's Laws that He gave to Israel that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" is an insidious lie, based on what is actually written in Eph. 2.

You keep insisting that it was God's Laws HE gave to Israel, as do "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that caused the wall of separation between Faithful Jews as being "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". But when a person actually studies the bible, and actually reads God's Laws concerning Non-Jews who turn to Him, this popular doctrine is exposed as a lie.

I wanted to show others the truth about Eph. 2, because it seems important to know the truth rather than philosophies and religious traditions of men. Which was also part of Paul's teaching in his other epistles.

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ.



This doesn't surprise me and is why I left the religion, that you have adopted and are now promoting, so many years ago. But according Paul, it was the "Christ" who was the Holy One of Israel, who taught them in the way that they should go.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Lev. 23: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. 4 These are the feasts "of the LORD", even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

And it was this Christ who came to earth and dwelled among men,

The Jesus "of the bible" even tells men that HE is Lord "even of the Sabbath Days". But like HE said:

Matt. 15: 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.




I'm not interested in the image of God after the likeness of man being promoted by this world's religious system, nor do I care about the high days they created in worship of this image. I know they are important for the economy of many countries, and truly "the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through" them. While the Feasts of the Christ are rejected, despised and promoted as unworthy of respect and honor by "Many" who come in Christ's Name".

But I don't want to get distracted from the discussion about whose Commandments and Ordinances that Jesus made a show of openly, that HE nailed to the cross, that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"


Certainly not me.




Can you show me one place in my posts where I said Jesus didn't expose and nail to His Cross the Commandments and Ordinances that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"? Of course you can't, because it's a lie.

This is why it is so frustrating to try and have an honest discussion with you.

So again, for the umpteenth time, the issue here is "WHOSE" Commandments and ordinances relegated faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"?

You, Clare73, and "many" who profess to know God, preach to anyone who will listen to you, that it was God and HIS Commandments and Ordinances that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"

But Paul is saying that it was the Pharisees AKA, "The Circumcision, made with hands" whose commandments and ordinances they taught for doctrines, relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

I want others reading along to read for themselves what Paul actually says in Eph. 2, and also read what God's Commandment actually teaches about Faithful Gentiles.

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be "unto you" as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

This is the Biblical Truth Bob. This is why you can't find any Commandment or ordinance written anywhere in the Law and Prophets that relegated a faithful Non-Jew of any nation, as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

Because it wasn't God or His Laws that were the problem, it was the mainstream preachers of that time, who were "teaching for doctrines the commandments "of men"."



So in your religion, Caleb and Joshua and Abraham and Isaiah, David and Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, regarded themselves as "Superior" to Faithful Non-Jews?

Bob, who is teaching you this crap, certainly not the Christ "of the Bible"?



Let's stick to accepting the truth about Whose Commandments and Ordinances relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

Then we can fellowship about the New Priesthood VS. the Old Priesthood.
Wow, this is quite an indictment..
Is it possible to take these things one at a time?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I am sure you don't believe everything others write here in the forum. I guess she thinks Noah and Abraham were Jews.
I'm not talking about individual covenants, I am talking about a covenant with a whole nation. God only made that with Israel and Judah and in God's NC still made with Israel and Judah Heb 8:10 but its not based on nationality, it based on faith.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Btw- Abraham was considered the father of Jews.
 
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ralliann

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No one is saved by keeping God's laws- keeping God's laws is a consequence of our salvation, not a means to it.
No one can keep law from Moses. The Levitical priesthood needs to function for that
Just like for Abraham

Gen 26: 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Not Mosaic Levitical law
Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No one can keep law from Moses. The Levitical priesthood needs to function for that

Not Mosaic Levitical law
Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Yes, not the same covenant, God only made an agreement/covenant with individuals until Israel. This covenant was the first covenant with a whole nation, which represents His church or people. A covenant means an agreement, not a set of laws. The agreement was based on the people keeping the Ten Commandments which was agreed on the people doing Exo 19:8 Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28. They broke it immediately but God who is long suffering established a new covenant- based on better promises, Heb 8:6 of what He will do. God writes His New Covenant not on stony hearts Eze 36:26 so if we are still hardening our hearts to the deceitfulness of sin Heb 3:13 and rebelling against God's law Rom 8:7-8 we are still in the Old Covenant. The New Covenant God writes His laws on the hearts and minds of His new covenant people Heb 8:10 and causes them to keep His laws though our love and cooperation of Him and the power of the Holy Spirit John 14:15-18

I do not believe that God gives us commandments without the power to keep them through Him. Also, the Ten Commandments is not called the Mosaic Levitical law according to God. Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Exo 20:6 Exo 31:18. If we can't beleive God's own Testimony Exo 31:18- I don't really see the point of the Bible because the whole Bible is about the testimony of Him through His prophets and disciples, but if we can't beleive God's own personal Testimony to live by as Jesus told us to quoting OT Mat 4:4, we might as well just write our own bible and live by it.
 
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ralliann

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I'm not talking about individual covenants, I am talking about a covenant with a whole nation.
Which is the covenant made in Sinai/Horeb
Not made with Abraham.
Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Which is the covenant made in Sinai/Horeb
Not made with Abraham.
Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Addressed here Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Abraham also kept God's commandments
Gen 26: 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

because that's what God's people do.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


Not to be saved but because we love Him
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
 
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ralliann

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Yes, not the same covenant,
Covenant of circumcision
God only made an agreement/covenant with individuals until Israel.
What does this mean. The twelve patriarchs were in this agreement.
This covenant was the first covenant with a whole nation,
Which covenant are you talking about?
Please address these "individuals", including the "twelve patriarchs" before anymore is added to this conversation.
One step at a time
 
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SabbathBlessings

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He did. You nor anyone else can keep Levitical law. So you are not keeping the law.
A step at a time.. Before we go further.
Many of the Levitical laws were attached to Jerusalem were the OT prescription of sin.

The Ten Commandment is the description of sin 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Mat 5:19-30 Rom 7:7 and not tied to Jerusalem. They were written in our heart for the NC and instead of an animal sacrifice in the OT, we can go directly to Jesus when we confess and repent, which means a change of heart and direction
 
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ralliann

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Many of the Levitical laws were attached to Jerusalem were the OT prescription of sin.
What does this mean? Please be clear. This is too vague.
In hopes you address my other posts. Or I see no point in going further in this.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Covenant of circumcision
One first needs to understand why circumcision and what it meant.
I wrote about it previously here

What does this mean. The twelve patriarchs were in this agreement.
I am talking about the covenant with the Nation of Israel. It was based on the people doing Exo 19:8

The New Covenant is based on what God will do Heb 8:10 Eze 36:27 so its a much better promise what the New Covenant is established on Heb 8:6
Which covenant are you talking about?
Please address these "individuals", including the "twelve patriarchs" before anymore is added to this conversation.
One step at a time
God never made any covenant with a Nation before the covenant with Israel which represents God's church and people. All covenants prior to this were individual covenants.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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What does this mean? Please be clear. This is too vague.

It was how in the OT they handled their sins for breaking God's laws.

Lev 4:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them,
Lev 4:3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.
Lev 4:4 He shall bring the bull to the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, lay his hand on the bull's head, and kill the bull before the LORD.

There is no more animal sacrifices in the NC- Jesus took it away to establish the second- through His blood

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Sin in the NC is still the same as it was in the OC- breaking God's laws 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 breaking one we break them all James 2:11

Now instead of taking an animal sacrifice to a Levitical priest in Jerusalem which one would have to be circumcised to gain access- which we can't because Jesus tore down that old system. Jesus took away that enmity by the sacrifice of Himself- He became our sacrificial Lamb and Passover 1 Cor 5:7

So when we sin or break God's Law, we can go to Him in earnest prayer and ask for His forgiveness and healing and true repentance means a change of heart and direction as we need to confess and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 no one is saved in their sins Heb 10:26-30, we are saved from our sins Mat 1:21 we need a conversion in Christ dying of our old self, being reborn and abiding in Him and in doing so one would be keeping God's commandments John 15:10 through the power of the Holy Spirit John 14:15-18. All God's Law does is show us our sins, so we are not depending on what we feel is right or wrong. but depending on God's righteousness Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-2 which is everlasting Psa 119:142 and the foundation of His throne Isa 89:14
 
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ralliann

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One first needs to understand why circumcision's and what it meant.
I wrote in detail here

This is nothing in detail at all with regards to the texts themselves. Stick to the text of scripture.
I am talking about the covenant with the Nation of Israel. It was based on the people doing Exo 19:8
But you never addressed my question. You said God made a covenant with individuals. I asked you about the twelve patriarchs in that covenant. The covenant of circumcision.....
The New Covenant is based on what God will do Heb 8:10 Eze 36:27 so its a much better promise what the New Covenant is established on Heb 8:6
You are just jumping ahead, while giving vague overview opinions on what went before.
God never made any covenant with a Nation before the covenant with Israel which represents God's church and people. All covenants prior to this were individual covenant.
More of the same...

Who were the individuals? The firstborn, the son of the birthright. and all that goes along with that.?
Heirs, and then the one heir set apart from the other heirs?
You just blast right on past all this stuff.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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This is nothing in detail at all with regards to the texts themselves. Stick to the text of scripture.
You never provided text, just said Covenant of circumcision.

I addressed by Scripture in the link I provided what it meant.
But you never addressed my question. You said God made a covenant with individuals. I asked you about the twelve patriarchs in that covenant.
The descendants of Jacob was the congregation or Nation of Israel Jesus was speaking to. Israel was just a name God gave to identify His people. It represents His church. In the OT it was literal but Gentiles or foreigners could be grafted in through circumcision. Exo 12:43-48 In the NT, there is no Jew or Gentile just those grafted in through faith and part of the promise. Gal 3:26-29
You are just jumping ahead, while giving vague overview opinions on what went before.
I'm not sure how providing specific Scriptures addressing the Levitical Law is being vague.
More of the same...

Who were the individuals? The firstborn, the son of the birthright. and all that goes along with that.?
Heirs, and then the one heir set apart from the other heirs?
You just blast right on past all this stuff.
The individuals was everyone God made a covenant with prior to making one with the entire nation of Israel.
 
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ralliann

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You never provided text, just said Covenant of circumcision.
right. You spoke of covenant with individuals. I gave it a name. I also questioned your context of individuals The twelve patriarchs were also party to that covenant.

I addressed by Scripture in the link I provided what it meant.
That was not the text of scripture.
The descendants of Jacob was the congregation or Nation of Israel Jesus was speaking to. Israel was just a name God gave to identify His people.
The twelve patriarchs were the congregation of Israel? The twelve Patriarchs were the nation of Israel?
Here it seems to say they became a nation in Egypt?
Deut 26:5 And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:
6 And the Egyptians evil entreated us, and afflicted us, and laid upon us hard bondage:

It represents His church. In the OT it was literal but Gentiles or foreigners could be grafted in through circumcision. Exo 12:43-48 In the NT, there is no Jew or Gentile just those grafted in through faith and part of the promise. Gal 3:26-29

I'm not sure how providing specific Scriptures addressing the Levitical Law is being vague.
Because you are not speaking about the covenant of circumcision.
The covenant of circumcision? The firstborn etc.
A royal covenant/ royal seed???
Kings and nations
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

The individuals was everyone God made a covenant with prior to making one with the entire nation of Israel.

What entire nation?
Levi
De 10:9 Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him.
De 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.



Nu 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Jos 13:14 Only unto the tribe of Levi he gave none inheritance; the sacrifices of the LORD God of Israel made by fire are their inheritance, as he said unto them.
Jos 13:33 But unto the tribe of Levi Moses gave not any inheritance: the LORD God of Israel was their inheritance, as he said unto them.
Jos 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That was not the text of scripture.

The twelve patriarchs were the congregation of Israel? The twelve Patriarchs were the nation of Israel?
Here it seems to say they became a nation in Egypt?
They came out of the bondage of Egypt. God's people were captives in Egypt. He spoke His covenant after they were delivered.
Deut 26:5 And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:
6 And the Egyptians evil entreated us, and afflicted us, and laid upon us hard bondage:
I'm not sure your point here or how it disputes anything I have said.
Because you are not speaking about the covenant of circumcision.
No I said this already.
The covenant of circumcision? The firstborn etc.
A royal covenant/ royal seed???
Kings and nations
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
This was also said before God codifying the Ten Commandments and them agreeing on what God said Exo 19:8.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

The covenant of circumcision was the sign on what separated His people from everyone else. The Ten Commandments is the covenant they agreed on to be part of God's people - I will be their God, they will be My people. Its always been on the condition of obeying God.
What entire nation?
Levi
De 10:9 Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him.
De 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
Nu 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Jos 13:14 Only unto the tribe of Levi he gave none inheritance; the sacrifices of the LORD God of Israel made by fire are their inheritance, as he said unto them.
Jos 13:33 But unto the tribe of Levi Moses gave not any inheritance: the LORD God of Israel was their inheritance, as he said unto them.
Jos 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.

The Levites was not the entire nation of Israel. They were the tribe that was loyal to God, when all the others worshipped the golden cow, why God made them priests.
 
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