No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[pasifika]

freewill speaking of in the Bible is the will to seek after God. We as sinners by nature cannot do that because of the Sin that lives within us.

 

[A New Dawn]

Didnt I just say its guided by His Purpose ? Listen please

You said “His grace is only sufficient and efficient to cover the sins of His sheep.” So I am asking if everyone in the world was his sheep, would Christ’s sacrifice be sufficient? It’s a simple question. Please pay attention.

 

[ozso]

I have to disagree. In John 6, not only doe He say that none can come unless they are drawn, but that of all that God gives him (and He draws) He will lose none. So there is a disconnect between the verse you quoted and Christ’s words in John. I propose that the disconnect lies in that fact that while God wants everyone to be saved (as all parents would) the only ones that are actually saved are those He has elected to save. The rest will not be drawn or regenerated, and therefore will not even have a desire to be saved.

It's one of the chinks found in calvinism.

 

[Mark Quayle]

All this is irrelevant to the choices we face each day.

Hardly so! God is the source and sustenance of all good.

That being so, how can anyone make good choices without being IN CHRIST?

"Apart from me you can do nothing" is not hyperbole. And that includes faith, regeneration and salvation. Your eternity does not hinge on your decision, but on God's alone.

 

[A New Dawn]

It's one of the chinks found in calvinism.

No, it’s the Arminian wish to make want mean the same as will.

I mean, it’s spelled out as clear as day.

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

 

[CoreyD]

This is a bunch of human reasoning, worthless.

I understand you are lashing out from the other thread.
However, his is not a meaningful response, as is the case of 95% of your posts.
It simply says, "I am just going to hand wave every post, I don't have a response to."
From your OP, to this point, isn't anything more than worthless human reasoning, simply because you said it.
See yah.

 

[d taylor]

freewill speaking of in the Bible is the will to seek after God. We as sinners by nature cannot do that because of the Sin that lives within us.

-

​

Cornelius did and there are examples of Jesus praising people for their faith. Sinners seek after God all the time.

Seeking God: Hebrews 11:6 and 2 Chronicles 15:2 – Grace Evangelical Society

No One Seeks God (Romans 3:11) – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[A New Dawn]

Cornelius did and there are examples of Jesus praising people for their faith. Sinners seek after God all the time.​

Seeking God: Hebrews 11:6 and 2 Chronicles 15:2 – Grace Evangelical Society

No One Seeks God (Romans 3:11) – Grace Evangelical Society

People only seek God because God has already worked in their hearts. Not every relationship with God starts with a “road to Damascus” experience. The ones that do are awesome, but sometimes God starts with smaller, quieter workings on the heart, and I suppose that many times those people can feel that they are the ones seeking rather than responding to God’s work in them. But the Bible is clear, far beyond Romans 3, that it is God’s work in us, not our own.

1 John 4:19 We love, because He first loved us. Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith;
John 15:16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Brightfame52]

No man can come to Christ by his own freewill ability because by nature hes dead in trespasses and sins and without spiritual life and ability to do or act. So consequently he cant come and believe on Christ of himself, or of his own freewill.

 

[d taylor]

People only seek God because God has already worked in their hearts. Not every relationship with God starts with a “road to Damascus” experience. The ones that do are awesome, but sometimes God starts with smaller, quieter workings on the heart, and I suppose that many times those people can feel that they are the ones seeking rather than responding to God’s work in them. But the Bible is clear, far beyond Romans 3, that it is God’s work in us, not our own.

1 John 4:19 We love, because He first loved us. Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith;
John 15:16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

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​

Again you are picking out verses and using them to support your belief.

John 15:16 is part of Jesus addressing the 11 disciples. So yes Jesus did choose these 11 disciples to bring the message of eternal life in Jesus, to the world.

Acts 13:48 When seen in the Greek it reads. like it is being stated, the ones who believed were appointed to eternal life.

 

[Brightfame52]

@A New Dawn

You said “His grace is only sufficient and efficient to cover the sins of His sheep.”

Yes guided by His Purpose. Grace is Given to some according to purpose 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

So I am asking if everyone in the world was his sheep, would Christ’s sacrifice be sufficient?

If its His Purpose. But His Purpose is Election, a Remnant according to Grace. So I dont deal in suppositions and neither does God. So why ask ?

It’s a simple question. Please pay attention.

I answered it

 

[Brightfame52]

I understand you are lashing out from the other thread.
However, his is not a meaningful response, as is the case of 95% of your posts.
It simply says, "I am just going to hand wave every post, I don't have a response to."
From your OP, to this point, isn't anything more than worthless human reasoning, simply because you said it.
See yah.

Lol, its a bunch garbage, thats a meaningful response

 

[KevinT]

No one may come to Christ without God's power reaching into our hearts. But we have free will to reject His drawing love.

KT

 

[d taylor]

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​

The existence of The Bible is proof that man can seek God, because that was the reason there is now a Bible. That man may read it and seek God and find out how to receive eternal life, by belief in Jesus . Which is recorded in the pages of The Bible.

Many people have picked up a Bible and read The Gospel of John and because of The Gospel of John's message of life by belief in Jesus. Have become pernamnet born again children of God, when they believed in Jesus for Eternal Life.

 

[A New Dawn]

-
​

Again you are picking out verses and using them to support your belief.

John 15:16 is part of Jesus addressing the 11 disciples. So yes Jesus did choose these 11 disciples to bring the message of eternal life in Jesus, to the world.

Acts 13:48 When seen in the Greek it reads. like it is being stated, the ones who believed were appointed to eternal life.

​

Again? This is the first time I’ve responded to you.

Are you suggesting that Jesus’ words to the disciples are not applicable to us?

And just because those words are in that order doesn’t mean they make sense in that order. It is clear that the second part “as many as were appointed to life eternal” is a descriptive of the preceding part of the statement “Hearing [it] then the Gentiles were rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord and believing”. Nowhere does it say that as many as believed were appointed to eternal life. I have done a study of this verse, also, because the church I used to attend turned this verse around like you are trying to do to support their own theology.

 

[A New Dawn]

@A New Dawn



Yes guided by His Purpose. Grace is Given to some according to purpose 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



If its His Purpose. But His Purpose is Election, a Remnant according to Grace. So I dont deal in suppositions and neither does God. So why ask ?



I answered it

No, you didn’t answer it. You sidestepped it so you didn’t have to answer because you know that sufficient and efficient have two different meanings. If they meant the same, there wouldn’t be two distinct words for the same thing.

But if I am to take “If it’s His purpose” as an answer, then I guess it’s a yes. So, yes, his sacrifice is sufficient for all, but it is efficient only for the elect.

 

[A New Dawn]

-
​

The existence of The Bible is proof that man can seek God, because that was the reason there is now a Bible. That man may read it and seek God and find out how to receive eternal life, by belief in Jesus . Which is recorded in the pages of The Bible.

Many people have picked up a Bible and read The Gospel of John and because of The Gospel of John's message of life by belief in Jesus. Have become pernamnet born again children of God, when they believed in Jesus for Eternal Life.

You should end your purely speculative opinion pieces with “IMHO”.

 

[A New Dawn]

No one may come to Christ without God's power reaching into our hearts. But we have free will to reject His drawing love.

KT

Maybe, maybe not. On the maybe side, since it is only after God has drawn us to Christ and He turns our hearts to himself that we actually do have free will. But, on the maybe not side, in the process of turning our hearts to him he changes our nature from fallen to redeemed, at which time we agree with Him about sin and the need to repent. And because we agree with Him, we can in no wise reject Him. If our hearts are truly turned to Him.

 

[d taylor]

Again? This is the first time I’ve responded to you.

Are you suggesting that Jesus’ words to the disciples are not applicable to us?

And just because those words are in that order doesn’t mean they make sense in that order. It is clear that the second part “as many as were appointed to life eternal” is a descriptive of the preceding part of the statement “Hearing [it] then the Gentiles were rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord and believing”. Nowhere does it say that as many as believed were appointed to eternal life. I have done study of this verse, also, because the church I used to attend turned this verse around like you are trying to do to support their own theology.

-

​

In that context they are not because you were not part of the 11, did Jesus also wash your feet. Are you preforming miracles, Were you put out of the synagogues?

“These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.

 

[KevinT]

Whenever these discussions come up about God's election, or decision about the future of mankind, I think one element of confusion is our mental visualization of God. God is sometimes portrayed in Scripture like a humanoid shape sitting on a throne, i.e. has a single location(Revelation 4), and making a decision about this or that -- like Santa Claus deciding about children's presents. But we also know that God is supporting and running every atom of the universe (Acts 17:28), and His thoughts are not the same as our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

So when I stumble and skin my knee, that is God at work. When one of those amazing contraptions comprised of Dominoes is set up, and the first piece is tipped over, causing the chain reaction such that they all ultimately will be knocked over -- that too is God in action. As the Dominoes are falling, we can say that the destiny of that final Domino is fixed. It's going to be knocked over unless someone intercedes. Thus all of the universe may be filled with similar chains of cause-to-effect. And when we see this in action, one can rightly say that this was all exactly as God ordained it.

But a clockwork model like this of the universe has no randomness built in. It was the prevailing understanding until detailed study of atoms showed that some events occur irregularly. We have observed that a group of uranium-238 atoms will spontaneously convert to Thorium-234, and onward through a chain of decays to Lead-206. Uranium-238's half-life is measured in billions of years, while Uranium-222 has a half-life of 1.4 microseconds. But when scientists isolate a single atom, they can't say exactly when THAT atom will decay, and to us it appears random. This too is God in action. It may be that God is individually deciding when each atom will decay, or it may be that He set up a physical rule guiding this that we haven't yet understood.

When a child is born in a destitute 3rd world country and dies in the first year of life from Cholera, we can imagine a chain of events that started with Adam and Eve sinning that led directly to that child's death. Some might say that God ordained this child to die. Others might say that it was inevitable based on the physics of cause-and-effect based on earthly circumstances combined with universal randomness. My point is that these may be just two different ways of saying the same thing.

But when God told Adam and Eve that they must not eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, the seed of evil had not yet been sown. All was perfect, so what went wrong? Supralapsarianism belief teaches that even before Eve disobeyed and ate the fruit, her death and the destruction of our earth was already ordained (read: a chain of action already set in motion). I strongly disagree with this view.

tl;dr -- God doing or deciding something may be more in the line of consistent physical laws (including randomness) and less like the arbitrary decisions of human dictator.

KT