Hot Button Issue: Can You Be Pro-Choice and Be a Christian?

[2PhiloVoid]

The first factor can only be the woman's decision to have sex and risk pregnancy. Women control reproduction and if they have sex with an unreliable man then there are consequences to that. Men legally have no rights over a child in the womb in most western societies so why are the irresponsible actions of men the first concern? Especially when women know the risks.

Men can lie and fail to be what they said they would be for a woman. So, don't give me this crap that men should be exonerated and summarily dismissed without repercussions for the part they've played in the problem.

Women control reproduction? That has to be the stupidest, most ignorant thing I've ever heard. In fact, I think men with the philosophical and moral framework of a Hugh Hefner, a Bob Guccione, or an Andrew Tate should be neutered.

Moreover, when I read the Old Testament and even when I read the New Testament, it appears the Lord puts more responsibility on a man to create a functional, family oriented outcome than He does upon women.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Men can lie and fail to be what they said they would be for a woman. So, don't give me this crap that men should be exonerated and summarily dismissed without repercussions for the part they've played in the problem.

Women control reproduction? That has to be the stupidest, most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

Would you be willing to give men rights over their children in the womb? Do you think most sex is non consensual for women? That they are unaware of the consequences and are mostly subject to rape or sexual assault?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Would you be willing to give men rights over their children in the womb? Do you think most sex is non consensual for women? That they are unaware of the consequences and are mostly subject to rape or sexual assault?

I don't think in terms of rights, and I don't think the biblical corpus of literature expresses rights thinking either. We need to erase that philosophical error. Responsibility before the Lord is the prime value, not "rights awareness." This goes for both men and women.

Men often forget this , and they wonder why their prayers are hindered so often, with a boo-hoo here and a boo-hoo there.

 

[Fervent]

I don't think in terms of rights, and I don't think the biblical corpus of literature expresses rights thinking either. We need to erase that philosophical error. Responsibility before the Lord is the prime value, not "rights awareness." This goes for both men and women.

Men often forget this , and they wonder why their prayers are hindered so often, with a boo-hoo here and a boo-hoo there.

Thinking in terms of "rights" is precisely why abortion is an issue, as it becomes a question of mediating between competing "rights" between the right of bodily autonomy and the right to life. Which is why the discussion is unlikely to be productive, as both sides must diminish the reality of the claims of the other to pretend that rights are absolute and unassailable.

Such discussion is far more comfortable in humanistic individualism than it is in an ethic that emphasizes denying oneself and taking up our cross daily. As Paul stated, "Why not let yourself be wronged?"

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I don't think in terms of rights, and I don't think the biblical corpus of literature expresses rights thinking either. We need to erase that philosophical error. Responsibility before the Lord is the prime value, not "rights awareness." This goes for both men and women.

Men often forget this , and they wonder why their prayers are hindered so often, with a boo-hoo here and a boo-hoo there.

So you want to advocate for a Christian vision of responsibility within a system that makes said Christian responsibility hard to put into practice?

I agree on the Christian basis that men should be held responsible but that doesnt matter if society has divorced men from this responsibility by allowing the woman to murder her child simply because its an inconvenience. You actually need to address the reality and propose solutions.

Would you be against men having rights over their child in the womb? What do you make of the fact that most men historically have not been able to pass on their genetics? You were saying that women aren't in control of reproduction but id maintain they are by the fact that they select who gets to pass on their genes. This has mostly been consensual as well.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So you want to advocate for a Christian vision of responsibility within a system that makes said Christian responsibility hard to put into practice?

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just like it was done during the 1st century. I don't see Peter or Paul handing out exemptions slips to all those Christians in their care who lived under the Roman hegemony. Do you?

I agree on the Christian basis that men should be held responsible but that doesnt matter if society has divorced men from this responsibility by allowing the woman to murder her child simply because its an inconvenience. You actually need to address the reality and propose solutions.

No. Men just need to realize that "no penetration" equals "no pregnancy" to have to worry over, let alone an unfortunate compounding of sin with an additional abortion in the mix. Men have be what God created them to be and take the damned lead. Or else fail. Blaming women left and right isn't the answer to the problem, even though, granted, women are contributing to the problem by following suit with what men used to be the main culprits in doing.

Would you be against men having rights over their child in the womb? What do you make of the fact that most men historically have not been able to pass on their genetics? You were saying that women aren't in control of reproduction but id maintain they are by the fact that they select who gets to pass on their genes. This has mostly been consensual as well.

Men decide who they're going to share their penis with. Let's not pretend it has ever been otherwise.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just like it was done during the 1st century. I don't see Peter or Paul handing out exemptions slips to all those Christians in their care who lived under the Roman hegemony. Do you?

I mean im not against Christians upholding our standards. But I am thinking more broadly to society as a whole. Do you not want to shape the society around us to reflect our values? Do you want the current system to dominate and have no meaningful opposition? At that point you've just surrendered to the sexual revolution a d they've won.

No. Men just need to realize that "no penetration" equals "no pregnancy" to have to worry over, let alone an unfortunate compounding of sin with an additional abortion in the mix. Men have be what God created them to be and take the damned lead. Or else fail. Blaming women left and right isn't the answer to the problem, even though, granted, women are contributing to the problem by following suit with what men used to be the main culprits in doing.

Do women have no culpability in this? Given that the consequences mostly fall on them and they are aware of the risk of pregnancy how does the responsibility not fall on women thr most to actually stop sleeping with men? Im not saying men shouldn't control themselves but they won't especially not in modern society.

Men decide who they're going to share their penis with. Let's not pretend it has ever been otherwise.

And women regulate the access to reproduction. You seem to think this an entirely equal phenomenon but as far as I can tell there are vast inequalities of consequences for both sexes for men and for women. It isnt men unilaterally for instance, rather it is a select portion of sexually desirable men who reproduce, the rest don't. Women eagerly sleep with these men and risk pregnancy knowing they are likely unreliable as fathers.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Do you believe in the legal right to choose to abort (murder) a child for any reason?

I am against abortion. Legality has no play in this situation because a woman, like I said, will do anything to rid herself of her child if she really wants to. Medical intervention came into play because many women died. Maybe I can share some of their ways as a reminder.

* Ingesting poisons or large quantities of certain herbs that could lead to organ failure, hemorrhage, and death.
* Self-inflicted injuries, extreme physical exertion, or blows to the abdomen could cause internal bleeding, uterine rupture, and fatal shock.
* Introducing unsterilized or sharp objects into the uterus could cause severe infection, perforation, hemorrhage, and sepsis.
* Applying corrosive chemicals internally could lead to severe burns, infection, and systemic toxicity.

This is a partial list.

So I guess the real question is, does the mothers life have any value?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am against abortion. Legality has no play in this situation because a woman, like I said, will do anything to rid herself of her child if she really wanted to. Medical intervention came into play because many women died. Maybe I can share some of their ways ad a reminder.

* Ingesting poisons or large quantities of certain herbs that could lead to organ failure, hemorrhage, and death.
* Self-inflicted injuries, extreme physical exertion, or blows to the abdomen could cause internal bleeding, uterine rupture, and fatal shock.
* Introducing unsterilized or sharp objects into the uterus could cause severe infection, perforation, hemorrhage, and sepsis.
* Applying corrosive chemicals internally could lead to severe burns, infection, and systemic toxicity.

This is a partial list.

So you support safer ways to murder one's child?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So you support safer ways to murder one's child?

I am against abortion so I support no ways.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am against abortion.

But you support the ability to access it if a woman decides to have one?

 

[ARBITER01]

That is simply not true. Many Christians have abortions.

In 2011, the Guttmacher Institute reported that 70 percent of the women having abortions in the U.S. identified as Protestant or Catholic.[140] The same report said that of all U.S. abortions, 37 percent were undertaken by women who identified as Protestant, and 28 percent were Catholic.[140] The number of abortions performed on U.S. Catholic women is about the same per capita as the average in the general U.S. population; in the 2000s, Catholic women were 29 percent more likely to have an abortion than Protestant women.[93]

Christianity and abortion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Planned parenthood is not a Christian organization, nor is it run by Christians. It's predominate use over the decades has been secular/worldly.

 

[All Becomes New]

Thank you all for the replies! Imagine my surprise to check into CF today and see so many replies!

 

[stevevw]

You can trace the abortion rate from 1960 where it was around 0.01% and see it rise through the cultural revolutions. Interestingly the rate was 0.71% in 1969 and then jumped nearly 5% in 1970 around the time of the womens and sexual revolutions beginning in the 70;s after the civil rights movement.

In 71 the rate jumps to 12% and then jumps by a few % each year peaking at just over 30% by the end of the decade. It more or less stays that way through the 80s only dropping a couple of % by 1990. Then it slowly decreases to around 20% by 2013. It seems to have risen slightly since then to around 22%.

But still 20 or 22% compared to 0.01% in 1960. There will be some cavets as this would only be legal abortions. But still I think the social norm frowned upon abortion as taboo. Today its a right.

But its interesting that abortion tracks with social norms which is not necessarily about morality but civil rights.

 

[A New Dawn]

That is simply not true. Many Christians have abortions.

In 2011, the Guttmacher Institute reported that 70 percent of the women having abortions in the U.S. identified as Protestant or Catholic.[140] The same report said that of all U.S. abortions, 37 percent were undertaken by women who identified as Protestant, and 28 percent were Catholic.[140] The number of abortions performed on U.S. Catholic women is about the same per capita as the average in the general U.S. population; in the 2000s, Catholic women were 29 percent more likely to have an abortion than Protestant women.[93]

Christianity and abortion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One could ask if they were truly Christians or did they grow up in a religious home where they, themselves didn’t have a relationship with God. Calling yourself Christian because your parents were Christian doesn’t make you Christian.

 

[ARBITER01]

One could ask if they were truly Christians or did they grow up in a religious home where they, themselves didn’t have a relationship with God. Calling yourself Christian because your parents were Christian doesn’t make you Christian.

Correct.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am against abortion. Legality has no play in this situation because a woman, like I said, will do anything to rid herself of her child if she really wants to. Medical intervention came into play because many women died. Maybe I can share some of their ways as a reminder.

* Ingesting poisons or large quantities of certain herbs that could lead to organ failure, hemorrhage, and death.
* Self-inflicted injuries, extreme physical exertion, or blows to the abdomen could cause internal bleeding, uterine rupture, and fatal shock.
* Introducing unsterilized or sharp objects into the uterus could cause severe infection, perforation, hemorrhage, and sepsis.
* Applying corrosive chemicals internally could lead to severe burns, infection, and systemic toxicity.

This is a partial list.

So I guess the real question is, does the mothers life have any value?

Then I guess you must be really thankful for the heartbeat bill, because studies have shown that many pregnant women who go in for an abortion change their minds when they hear the baby’s heartbeat. You must also be grateful for anatomy classes that show the baby at various stages of intrauterine life to show that it really is a human child in there. Both of these measures are highly contested by the left because they know it generally means that once women know them they often choose to keep the baby.

 

[PloverWing]

Most abortions are done to viable children right? Where is the room for nuance when most abortions are done for the sake of convenience to preserve the woman's lifestyle?

No, most abortions (at least, here in the US) are done within the first trimester, well before viability. (In 2021, 80.8% were performed at <= 9 weeks' gestation, and 93.5% at <= 13 weeks gestation; source Abortion Surveillance — United States, 2021). There is a difference between an embryo that has the potential to become viable in a few months' time and a fetus that is viable right now.

 

[Fervent]

No, most abortions (at least, here in the US) are done within the first trimester, well before viability. (In 2021, 80.8% were performed at <= 9 weeks' gestation, and 93.5% at <= 13 weeks gestation; source Abortion Surveillance — United States, 2021). There is a difference between an embryo that has the potential to become viable in a few months' time and a fetus that is viable right now.

I don't think that's what he meant by "viable", but a more general understanding of there being no deficiency in the fetus regardless of stage of development such that if carried to term the baby would have likely survived.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No, most abortions (at least, here in the US) are done within the first trimester, well before viability. (In 2021, 80.8% were performed at <= 9 weeks' gestation, and 93.5% at <= 13 weeks gestation; source Abortion Surveillance — United States, 2021). There is a difference between an embryo that has the potential to become viable in a few months' time and a fetus that is viable right now.

We mean different things by viability. I mean the child can be carried to terms without complications. Most abortions are done due to convenience and the mother not wanting to change her life, right? Is there any room for nuance from a Christian perspective for most abortions? Or are you in favour of allowing abortion for any reason? I wouldnt be surprised given your Church affiliation.