Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Thou shalt not
dishhonor parents,
murder,
steal,
commit adultery,
lie about others,
covet another's goods or wife.

That doesn't require love. That's just "do no harm."

The NT is : love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34).

So the recent Buddhist term "do no harm" actually does not exist in Scripture.

 

[Clare73]

According to God, love is the foundation of keeping the commandments as He said right in the Ten Commandments

So then you do understand why my focus is on Jesus' new command of the new covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue, "do no harm."

 

[Clare73]

So the recent Buddhist term "do no harm" actually does not exist in Scripture.

Correct, "do no harm" is just a summary of the "thou shalt not" murder, lie, steal, commit adultery, or covet, which do not require love of neighbor, as does the New Covenant law of Jn 13:34.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Correct, that is just a summary of the "thou shalt not" murder, lie, steal, adulterize, or covet, which do not require love.

Conveniently, you are only articulating the second table of the law. Pagan natural law thinking here.

 

[Clare73]

Conveniently, you are only articulating the second table of the law. Pagan natural law thinking here.

Yes, that is the object of the discussion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

One poster claims Jesus didn't fulfill ALL the Law, but Jesus in Matt 5: 17 said; “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Notice Jesus didn't say some of the laws, like the poster claims, because there is no qualifier in His words. Then Jesus went on to tell us that nothing could be removed from said Law until everything was accomplished. The poster also claims that indeed some of the commands of the Law have been fulfilled and are no longer required to be kept. It appears that the poster has been given the discretion to choose what commands can be disregarded.

To those of us posters that believe Jesus did what He came to do, fulfill all the Law, the poster threatens that unless we abide by the commands of the Law we are in a lawless state. According to him/her we have to keep the commands of the Law with emphasis on the Sabbath command in order to be saved.

So, the reason for this thread is to discuss Matt 5:17-18. Did Jesus fail to fulfill what He came to do or did He keep His word and during His stay on this Earth bring an end to the Law? We have no qualms about His fulfilling and bringing to a final end the prophecies concerning Him. Why do some hesitate to believe He did the same for the Law?

Well considering that we do actually see laws being abolished in the New Testament that to me seems to be a pretty clear indication that whatever “all” was supposed to refer to in the term “until all is fulfilled” it must’ve been fulfilled already otherwise we shouldn’t be seeing laws like the dietary laws, sabbaths, and circumcision being abolished yet.

 

[ralliann]

Correct, "do no harm" is just a summary of the "thou shalt not" murder, lie, steal, adulterize, or covet, which do not require love of neighbor, as does the New Covenant law of Jn 13:34.

I think love is the summary.
This commandment, IMO leads to them all.
De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Indeed - Jesus fulfilled the Law to "not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 perfectly.

He also fulfilled the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:8 fulfilled perfectly.

He also perfectly fulfilled (complied with) the Law to "honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12.

Good thing "fulfill" does not mean "deleted"



Exactly! Because "fulfilled" does not mean "deleted". When it comes to legal/moral imperatives it means "complied with".

When it comes to predictive laws such as animal sacrifices - then as Heb 10:4-12 reminds us - it means that the prediction is fulfilled and the law making that prediction is fully satisfied - "taken away" as the text says regarding "animal sacrifice and offerings".

Right but the words abolish and pass away do mean deleted. Have any of the laws been abolished or passed away?

 

[daq]

I think the greater point is.....Your undestanding of TORAH. Did it even exist in the time of Christ?

So the greater point is that I should not have posted what I did, and instead, I should have broken out into a discourse on my own understanding of the Torah? That would not have had anything to do with the post I quoted and was responding to. As for my understanding of the Torah it comes from Meshiah himself by way of his Testimony in the Gospel accounts. Hope that answers your question.

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

This seat of authority included the office of priesthood and the office of judges....together giving sentence on law. NON sectarian. As for the various "PERSONAL" sectarian ideas and practices of them as SECTS He adds their sectarian elements...... "do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Read the remainder of the chapter: your text has been corrupted. Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic and the Greek texts are unfortunately mistaken in this case based on a single misinterpreted letter, (a waw suffix that is not in the Hebrew Shem Tov version). The context in the passage and even the whole account of Matthew, (and even the other Gospel accounts), tells us that this statement in Matthew 23:3 cannot be correct in the Greek versions. The statement is even a blatant contradiction to what follows in the same chapter-passage.

The Shem Tov Matthew version reads correctly, and this version was compiled and copied from an older version by someone, (the "Baal Shem Tov" ("Master of the Good Name")), who was using it in an anti-Christian polemic. In other words, he surely did not change the text for obvious reasons: for if his exemplar had said what the Greek texts now say, it would have been much more to his advantage to have such a statement in Matthew. Imagine an anti-messianic Rabbi reading such a statement: he would surely use it in a polemic against Christianity!

The following is essentially what is at play in the Hebrew. Even if you do not read Hebrew it is not difficult to see or understand, I will place the key word in red, (amar, to speak, to say, etc., etc.).

This is 1 Samuel 14:9 which begins with "If thus they say"

אִם־כֹּה יֹֽאמְרוּ אֵלֵינוּ דֹּמּוּ עַד־הַגִּיעֵנוּ אֲלֵיכֶם וְעָמַדְנוּ תַחְתֵּינוּ וְלֹא נַעֲלֶה אֲלֵיהֶֽם׃

Without the pointing, this is "they say" highlighted above in red: יאמרו
The final letter is the waw which tells you it means they say.

From Matthew 23:3, this is "he says" in the Shem Tob version: יאמר
There is no waw suffix: it reads, he says.

The difference is a mere single letter at the end of the word, the waw/vav. Moreover if you follow the pronouns the Shem Tov Hebrew version makes even more sense because "he says" refers directly back to Mosheh who was just mentioned.

Follow the pronouns:

The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in the seat of Mosheh: therefore whatsoever he says to you, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

The entire argument changes on this seemingly insignificant little issue: for what the Master is actually telling his disciples is that because the Scribes and Pharisees sit in the seat of Mosheh, they themselves affirm that Mosheh is of a greater authority than they themselves, (for by sitting in the seat of Mosheh they by default claim him as their authority and the authority of the Torah over themselves), therefore whatsoever Mosheh says to you in the Torah, that do, but do not do as the Scribes and Pharisees do, (according to their works), because they say and do not do.

Your commentary on this point is now therefore obsolete imo.

The Pharisees here are a particular focus as the next verse shows, with a nod to the priesthood.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

The finger of the priests in their ministry : Purging, atoneing for sin....
These are only a few verses of the subject of the finger of the priests. There are many, many more throughout the law.

Ex 29:12 And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.
Le 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
Le 4:17 And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.

Leviticus 16:5-10 RSV
5 And he shall take from the congregation of the people of Israel two male goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
6 “And Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house.
7 Then he shall take the two goats, and set them before the Lord at the door of the tent of meeting;
8 and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel.
9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord, and offer it as a sin offering;
10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.
11 “Aaron shall present the bull as a sin offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house; he shall kill the bull as a sin offering for himself.
12 And he shall take a censer full of coals of fire from the altar before the Lord, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small; and he shall bring it within the veil
13 and put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat which is upon the testimony, lest he die;
14 and he shall take some of the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it with his finger on the front of the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle the blood with his finger seven times.
15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood within the veil, and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it upon the mercy seat and before the mercy seat;
16 thus he shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel, and because of their transgressions, all their sins; and so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which abides with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
17 There shall be no man in the tent of meeting when he enters to make atonement in the holy place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel. [Rev 15:8]

Revelation 15:1-8 RSV
1 Then I saw another portent in heaven, great and wonderful, seven angels with seven plagues, [or strokes] which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is ended.
2 And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.
3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and wonderful are thy deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are thy ways, O King of the ages!
4 Who shall not fear and glorify thy name, O Lord? For thou alone art holy. All nations shall come and worship thee, for thy judgments have been revealed.”
5 After this I looked, and the temple of the tent of witness in heaven was opened,
6 and out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues, robed in pure bright linen, and their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives for ever and ever;
8 and the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues [strokes] of the seven angels were ended. [Lev 16:17]

But if I with the finger of Elohim cast out demons, no doubt the kingdom of Elohim has come upon you! (Luke 11:20).

Do mortal Kohanim have seven eyes, or seven spirits, or seven stars in their right hand, or seven fingers? (Uriel, Raphael, Reuel, Mikael, Soreqael, Gabriel, Remiel).

The death of the high priest atones

See above.

Moreover the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14), and the Torah was given through the instrumentality of Angels, (Acts 7:53, Gal 3:19), so why do so many not seem to believe the scripture in these things, or pay any attention to such scripture statements of fact and incorporate such things into their overall understanding and doctrine?

There are seven stars in the right hand of the Word, the Torah scroll, (in the kephalidi-header of the Sefer, Genesis 1, which is on the right hand side at the beginning of the scroll). Moreover the same seven are the seven Spirits before the throne. Moreover there are seven Spirits mentioned throughout the scripture, Ruach haYom, (Gen 3:8), Ruach Mishpat, Ruach Ba'ar, (Isa 4:4), Ruach Chokmah, Ruach 'Etsah, Ruach Da'ath, (Isa 11:2), and Ruach Chen the Spirit of Grace, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29). Moreover they also have names in the writings which correspond, such as Uriel, Light of El, and so on.

Moreover there are seven "I am" statements in the fourth Gospel account, and they also correspond to the seven Messenger-Angels, who also correspond to the seven colors of the rainbow.

1) I am the Light of the world, John 8:12, (Uriel, Light of El, Enoch 20:2).
2) I am the Bread of Life, John 6:35, (Raphael, Healing of El, Enoch 20:3).
3) I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, John 14:6, (Reuel/Raguel, Friend of El, Enoch 20:4).
4) I am the Good Shepherd, John 10:11, (Mikael, over the heart, Enoch 20:5, over the holy people, Daniel 12:1).
5) I am the Vine/true Vine, John 15:1-5, (Saraqael/Soreqael, Choice Vine of El, Genesis 49:11, Enoch 20:6).
6) I am the Door, John 10:9, (Gabriel, Gaber of El, Enoch 20:7).
7) I am the Resurrection and the Life, John 11:25, (Remiel, whom El set over those who rise, Enoch 20:8).
Seven Colors (of the Rainbow) #15

John 18:4-9 HNV
4 Yeshua therefore, knowing all the things that were happening to him, went forth, and said to them, "Who are you looking for?"
5 They answered him, "Yeshua of Natzeret." Yeshua said to them, "I AM." Yehudah also, who betrayed him, was standing with them.
6 When therefore he said to them, "I AM," [Uriel-Raphael-Reuel-Mikael-Soreqael-Gabriel-Remiel] they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Again therefore he asked them, "Who are you looking for?" They said, "Yeshua of Natzeret."
8 Yeshua answered, "I told you that I AM. If therefore you seek me, let these go their way,"
9 that the word might be fulfilled which he spoke, "Of those whom you have given me, I have lost none."

We are not going to see eye to eye at this point, so I leave you the last word, (in an attempt to avoid hijacking this thread over an off-topic debate/argument).

 

[Clare73]

I think love is the summary.
This commandment, IMO leads to them all.
De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Agreed. . . but we're talking about the Decalogue

 

[Clare73]

Right but the words abolish and pass away do mean deleted. Have any of the laws been abolished or passed away?

It matters not. . .they are all fulfilled in the all-encompassing law of love (Ro 13:10). . .no other law needs to be considered.

 

[pasifika]

If you sin you are under the law and will be judged accordingly

No. you either under the law or under Grace. if you sin while under Grace then you have the blood of Christ to cleanse you of your sin.

 

[ralliann]

So the greater point is that I should not have posted what I did, and instead, I should broken out into a discourse on my own understanding of the Torah?

I was addressing what was Torah in the time of Christ. The seat of Moses...

That would not have had anything to do with the post I quoted and was responding to. As for my understanding of the Torah is comes from Meshiah himself by way of his testimony in the Gospel accounts. Hope that answers your question.

That above, is what the apostles taught concerning themselves.

Read the remainder of the chapter: your text has been corrupted. Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic and the Greek texts are unfortunately mistaken in this case based on a single misinterpreted letter, (a waw suffix that is not in the Hebrew Shem Tov version).

The New Testament is in Greek.

The context in the passage and even the whole account of Matthew, (and even the other Gospel accounts), tells us that this statement in Matthew 23:3 cannot be correct in the Greek versions. The statement is even a blatant contradiction to what follows in the same chapter-passage.

No contradiction at all if read in copntext of teaching at the time. Law that came from the priestly oversight and approval Could be moved By the finger of the priest, sin atoned by the death of the high priest. A Pharisee simply by virtue of his ministration as a judge, could not do that. It is not MY TEACHING of law, it was teaching in the time of Christ. Therefore any burdens the Phrisees put on the people that were ERROR, they could not move.

The Shem Tov Matthew version reads correctly, and this version was compiled and copied from an older version by someone, (the "Baal Shem Tov" ("Master of the Good Name")), who was using it in an anti-Christian polemic. In other words, he surely did not change the text for obvious reasons: for if his exemplar had said what the Greek texts now say, it would have been much more to his advantage to have such a statement in Matthew. Imagine an anti-messianic Rabbi reading such a statement: he would surely use it in a polemic against Christianity!

The following is essentially what is at play in the Hebrew. Even if you do not read Hebrew it is not difficult to see or understand, I will place the key word in red, (amar, to speak, to say, etc., etc.).

This is 1 Samuel 14:9 which begins with "If thus they say"

אִם־כֹּה יֹֽאמְרוּ אֵלֵינוּ דֹּמּוּ עַד־הַגִּיעֵנוּ אֲלֵיכֶם וְעָמַדְנוּ תַחְתֵּינוּ וְלֹא נַעֲלֶה אֲלֵיהֶֽם׃

Without the pointing, this is "they say" highlighted above in red: יאמרו
The final letter is the waw which tells you it means they say.

From Matthew 23:3, this is "he says" in the Shem Tob version: יאמר
There is no waw suffix: it reads, he says.

The difference is a mere single letter at the end of the word, the waw/vav. Moreover if you follow the pronouns the Shem Tov Hebrew version makes even more sense because "he says" refers directly back to Mosheh who was just mentioned.

Follow the pronouns:

The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in the seat of Mosheh: therefore whatsoever he says to you, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Do not do what?
Bear iniquity...
Ex 28:38 And it shall be upon Aaron’s forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.
Ex 28:43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

Bearing iniquity of the congregation.
Le 10:17 Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?

The entire argument changes on this seemingly insignificant little issue: for what the Master is actually telling his disciples is that because the Scribes and Pharisees sit in the seat of Mosheh, they themselves affirm that Mosheh is of a greater authority than they themselves, (for by sitting in the seat of Mosheh they by default claim him as their authority and the authority of the Torah over themselves), therefore whatsoever Mosheh says to you in the Torah, that do, but do not do as the Scribes and Pharisees do, (according to their works), because they say and do not do.

Moses Sat to Judge.....
Ex 18:13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.

Burden of the people's disputes with one another.....

14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws. {one … :

19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

See here......
Deut 33:8 ¶ And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
Ps 99:10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar. {They shall teach: or, Let them

Ps 99: 6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them.



Judges of small matters at all times, Great matters come to Moses

22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

Moses seat Matters to Hard for the lower courts.

Dt 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:

Your commentary on this point is now therefore obsolete
The context however was not and is not.

As far as those lower courts....Yes priests presided over them as well.

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried

Sometimes, at least in Josephus it speaks of prophet for the seat of Moses...

The Pharisees knew nothing!
Jo 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Sorry for such long posts but Yours was a doozy.

 

[BobRyan]

Right but the words abolish and pass away do mean deleted. Have any of the laws been abolished or passed away?

True - "abolish" does not mean "continue" and "pass away" does not mean "continues on".

Indeed - Jesus fulfilled the Law to "not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 perfectly.
He also fulfilled the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:8 fulfilled perfectly. Rom 13, Matt 22, ...
He also perfectly fulfilled (complied with) the Law to "honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12. Eph 6:1-3

Good thing "fulfill" does not mean "deleted"

It matters not. . .they are all fulfilled in the all-encompassing law of love (Ro 13:10). . .no other law needs to be considered.

ITs the same law.

We see it in Eph 6:1-2
We see it in Rom 13, Matt 22, James 2 ...

prescriptive Law (moral law) defines what sin is EVEN in the NT - James 4:2 and it is written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 according to Hebrews 8 quoting Jer 31 verbatim.

 

[ralliann]

Agreed. . . but we're talking about the Decalogue

Yeah, The first commandment yes?

True - "abolish" does not mean "continue" and "pass away" does not mean "continues on".

Indeed - Jesus fulfilled the Law to "not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 perfectly.
He also fulfilled the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:8 fulfilled perfectly. Rom 13, Matt 22, ...
He also perfectly fulfilled (complied with) the Law to "honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12. Eph 6:1-3

Good thing "fulfill" does not mean "deleted"

And not deleted can mean finished...completed.

 

[BobRyan]

It matters not. . .they are all fulfilled in the all-encompassing law of love (Ro 13:10). . .no other law needs to be considered.

Yeah, The first commandment yes?

And not deleted can mean finished...completed.

If the moral law was "finished" rather than written on the heart according to Heb 8 and Jer 31 -- then someone needs to inform scripture about it.

prescriptive law - like moral law and the speed limit does not get deleted the moment someone complies with it.

So then "do not take God's name in vain" and "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-3 do not get "deleted"/completed as soon as the first person actually does what the law requires.

Just like a 55 MPH speed limit does not get deleted - as soon as the first person goes 55 mph on the highway

 

[Hentenza]

If the moral law was "finished" rather than written on the heart according to Heb 8 and Jer 31 -- then someone needs to inform scripture about it.

prescriptive law - like moral law and the speed limit does not get deleted the moment someone complies with it.

So then "do not take God's name in vain" and "honor your father and mother" does not get "deleted"/completed as soon as the first person actually does what the law requires. Just like a 55 MPH speed limit does not get deleted - as soon as the first person goes 55 mph on the highway

All of the law was fulfilled by Christ including the moral law, the prescriptive law, and any other part of the 613 laws in the Old Testament. The old covenant is done, cooked, completed, finished. All laws are now in the Spirit. All of them. No one was ever saved by the old laws, period. Everyone ever has been saved by faith, not laws. In the new covenant those in Christ are saved by the grace of God through Faith in Jesus Christ.

BTW, driving 55 sucked even when it was instituted.

 

[BobRyan]

All of the law was fulfilled by Christ including the moral law

Indeed - He complied with all of it perfectly.

But prescriptive laws such as the Ten Commandments and the speed limit do not "get delete" the moment one person complies with them.

So then sin is "still" -- "The transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 NASB
And it is "Still" a sin to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - yes even for born-again Christians

, the prescriptive law, and any other part of the 613 laws in the Old Testament.

Not all of the 613 are prescriptive. Some are predictive - predicting the coming of Christ and His atonement for sin. See "the Passover" for example. Then read Heb 10:4-12

No one was ever saved by the old laws, period.

true in both OT and NT.

So then
Jesus fulfilled the Law to "not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 perfectly.
He also fulfilled the Law to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:8 fulfilled perfectly. Rom 13, Matt 22, ...
He also perfectly fulfilled (complied with) the Law to "honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12. Eph 6:1-3

The idea that "we do not take God's name in vain" as a way to be "saved by Law" is nonsense of course.

 

[BobRyan]

BTW, driving 55 sucked even when it was instituted.

There are still streets where the speed limit is 45 and some where it is 55 ... etc
and the presriptive nature of that sort of law is such that "the law is not deleted as soon as one person complies with it"

That also holds for "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

No wonder Is 66:23 informs us that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

 

[ralliann]

All of the law was fulfilled by Christ including the moral law, the prescriptive law, and any other part of the 613 laws in the Old Testament.

The way I see this, and I don't know what to call it as a law, But,,,,,,,Jesus had work under the law that only he was given to do, only he could do until that was done, it couldn't be finished or complete.

The law has prophetic Judgements. Those judgements are curses and wrath, which are of long duration upon Israel.

This long continuance is in itself a fulfillment of the law...
De 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

Uncircumcised in heart.....
Lev 26 39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

the circumcision of the heart....
Deut 30:27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

The old covenant is done, cooked, completed, finished.

See the above. Were the prophecies of Judgement and curses finished? Or have they gone on for two thousand years?

OF LONG CONTINUANCE

Deut 28: 58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

All laws are now in the Spirit. All of them. No one was ever saved by the old laws, period. Everyone ever has been saved by faith, not laws. In the new covenant those in Christ are saved by the grace of God through Faith in Jesus Christ.

BTW, driving 55 sucked even when it was instituted.

I think Jesus fulfilling the law, has to do with escaping the wrath and judgement prophesied in the law.....Both upon Israel, and then on the nations....
This is a prophecy ,Jew's judged by the law
Deut 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

We Gentiles in Christ will escape this....
Gentiles perish apert from the law
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

It is just how I see it. These are clearly prophetic utterances.....of the law in Moses...

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come