Darwinian evolution - still a theory in crisis.

[2PhiloVoid]

Stop? It's an essential part of the program.

Yes, I've all too readily noticed this guilt laden propensity inherent within the proselytizing methods among evangelicals. As it was in 1986, so it still is today. It's leftovers from the days of the two "Great Awakenings" in the U.S., I think (ala the likes of Jonathan Edwards).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You are right. Some of the atheists on this forum can get unpleasant, but Christians should remain understanding. Some atheists just think the whole idea of God is a bother and silly, but most just don’t like God, so they say that He doesn’t exists. One doesn’t know what pain might be hiding deep inside. One friend of mine rejected God when his young wife died a horrible death from cancer.

Unfortunately, I wasn't referring to the atheists here, although some of them do tend to offer their own share of troubling accusations, coming out of another political ideology that doesn't do much better on the Left than that used by hyper-evangelicals on the Right.

 

[BCP1928]

You are right. Some of the atheists on this forum can get unpleasant, but Christians should remain understanding. Some atheists just think the whole idea of God is a bother and silly, but most just don’t like God, so they say that He doesn’t exists. One doesn’t know what pain might be hiding deep inside. One friend of mine rejected God when his young wife died a horrible death from cancer.

There is no real "understanding" available. One either believe in the literal inerrancy of Genesis or one is not a Christian. That's one of the reasons I don't put my faith under my avatar. If "Biblical" Christians think they are the only real Christians then I am happy to let them. I am ashamed of what they have made of the name.

 

[Tinker Grey]

but most just don’t like God, so they say that He doesn’t exists.

This is simply a lie. Stop spreading it. It's not most, if it's even a few.

 

[BCP1928]

You are right. Some of the atheists on this forum can get unpleasant, but Christians should remain understanding. Some atheists just think the whole idea of God is a bother and silly, but most just don’t like God, so they say that He doesn’t exists. One doesn’t know what pain might be hiding deep inside. One friend of mine rejected God when his young wife died a horrible death from cancer.

That's certainly one option. I prefer "You don't own God, so stuff it." I don't claim the name "Christian" any more but on questions of doctrine I will take no prisoners.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You are right. Some of the atheists on this forum can get unpleasant, but Christians should remain understanding.

I'd like to remain pleasant about it. I only become unpleasant when people make false claims about us, especially the ones that make claims about me directly to me. I do find that unpleasant, and such posts get what they deserve. (O, clearly not as much as the deserve, there are restrictions here...)

Can I remain pleasant here today? Let's see...

Some atheists just think the whole idea of God is a bother and silly, but most just don’t like God, so they say that He doesn’t exists.

Are we liars? If we just don't like God, but claim he doesn't exist that would be a lie, would it not?

One doesn’t know what pain might be hiding deep inside.

This is another trope about us, that we have some pain connected to religion deep within us. Unfortunately religious writers have been impugning non-believers for millennia.

One friend of mine rejected God when his young wife died a horrible death from cancer.

I feel bad for your friend. Those kinds of occurrences are often taken by believers as "tests of faith" and for some when they have reasons to question some aspect of faith other parts fail upon examination.

Let's be clear, atheists are the people that don't believe in any god, not yours, not anyone elses. For those of us who used to believe, there are many paths out of faith, but we are those who don't go back. For me it was the obviously human nature and unrealistic claims of scripture that lead me to realize that Christianity was literally unbelievable.

 

[trophy33]

For me it was the obviously human nature

What do you mean by this?

Edit: Maybe I misread it, you probably mean "the human nature of Scripture".

 

[Jerry N.]

I'd like to remain pleasant about it. I only become unpleasant when people make false claims about us, especially the ones that make claims about me directly to me. I do find that unpleasant, and such posts get what they deserve. (O, clearly not as much as the deserve, there are restrictions here...)

Can I remain pleasant here today? Let's see...

Are we liars? If we just don't like God, but claim he doesn't exist that would be a lie, would it not?

This is another trope about us, that we have some pain connected to religion deep within us. Unfortunately religious writers have been impugning non-believers for millennia.

I feel bad for your friend. Those kinds of occurrences are often taken by believers as "tests of faith" and for some when they have reasons to question some aspect of faith other parts fail upon examination.

Let's be clear, atheists are the people that don't believe in any god, not yours, not anyone elses. For those of us who used to believe, there are many paths out of faith, but we are those who don't go back. For me it was the obviously human nature and unrealistic claims of scripture that lead me to realize that Christianity was literally unbelievable.

Thanks for your post. I would only like to mention two things. First of all, I would be careful about calling them liars. The human mind is a strange thing. I have known atheists who admitted that they say they don’t believe in God, because they are upset with what He has allowed to happen. Others, I suppose, have convinced themselves that there is no God, because they have felt abandoned by the God they once believed in. I knew a lady who hated her ex-husband so much that she told everybody he was dead. He was very much alive, but he was dead in her mind. Her statements were not true, but you would have to know what happened in her mind to say that she was lying or not. It is the same with the “trope” that their pain causes them to deny God. I mentioned my friend, and that was surely the case with him. The other problem is that people call themselves atheists because the church has treated them badly or they have seen so much hypocrisy. I have bet my soul on Jesus’s work for my salvation. Everyone makes their own choices.

 

[BCP1928]

Thanks for your post. I would only like to mention two things. First of all, I would be careful about calling them liars. The human mind is a strange thing. I have known atheists who admitted that they say they don’t believe in God, because they are upset with what He has allowed to happen. Others, I suppose, have convinced themselves that there is no God, because they have felt abandoned by the God they once believed in. I knew a lady who hated her ex-husband so much that she told everybody he was dead. He was very much alive, but he was dead in her mind. Her statements were not true, but you would have to know what happened in her mind to say that she was lying or not. It is the same with the “trope” that their pain causes them to deny God. I mentioned my friend, and that was surely the case with him. The other problem is that people call themselves atheists because the church has treated them badly or they have seen so much hypocrisy. I have bet my soul on Jesus’s work for my salvation. Everyone makes their own choices.

And some have chosen to bet their soul on the literal inerrancy of Scripture instead, but there is only so much crap we're prepared to take from them about it.

 

[Jerry N.]

That's certainly one option. I prefer "You don't own God, so stuff it." I don't claim the name "Christian" any more but on questions of doctrine I will take no prisoners.

You can certainly write whatever you want. The worse that can happen is that the thread is blocked and you hurt feelings. I have had many atheists tell me that they don’t need the Bible to know how to do right. Does that include being polite to a person you are not face-to-face with? It is not right to take advantage of anonymity, and a bit of politeness will go a long way in getting people to consider your arguments. The person you are writing to is not the only person reading your post.

 

[Jerry N.]

And some have chosen to bet their soul on the literal inerrancy of Scripture instead, but there is only so much crap we're prepared to take from them about it.

I understand, but this is called “Christian Forums.” So you are sort of in their house. The fact that you are allowed in, doesn’t mean a certain level of politeness isn’t expected.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I understand, but this is called “Christian Forums.” So you are sort of in their house. The fact that you are allowed in, doesn’t mean a certain level of politeness isn’t expected.

An from what I've seen around here, many people need to remember that door swings both ways.

 

[Jerry N.]

An from what I've seen around here, many people need to remember that door swings both ways.

True. I have already posted to that effect.

 

[Ophiolite]

• Thanks for your post. I would only like to mention two things. First of all, I would be careful about calling them liars. The human mind is a strange thing. I have known atheists who admitted that they say they don’t believe in God, because they are upset with what He has allowed to happen. Others, I suppose, have convinced themselves that there is no God, because they have felt abandoned by the God they once believed in. I knew a lady who hated her ex-husband so much that she told everybody he was dead. He was very much alive, but he was dead in her mind. Her statements were not true, but you would have to know what happened in her mind to say that she was lying or not. It is the same with the “trope” that their pain causes them to deny God. I mentioned my friend, and that was surely the case with him. The other problem is that people call themselves atheists because the church has treated them badly or they have seen so much hypocrisy. I have bet my soul on Jesus’s work for my salvation. Everyone makes their own choices.

Let me explore the reasons you have encountered for atheists to become atheists in regard to my own situation:

• Disbelieve in God, because of the bad things He has allowed to happen. Not applicable to me. First, I found the "God moves in mysterious ways" an adequate get-out clause. Secondly, by the time I examined that justification more closely I had already abandoned the religion.
• Disbelief because one feels abandoned by God. Nothing especially bad has happened to me, consequently it would have been arrogant of me to get upset over the minor downsides of normal living.
• Disbelief based on a reaction to difficult treatment by the Church. My experiences in this regard were all positive.
• Disbelief prompted by the hypocrisy of some within the Church. I certainly recognise that, but it is a reflection of the imperfection of individuals, not a fault of the religion, or an argument against God.

I readily accept that many people may have become atheists for the reasons you propose, but I do not personally know of any. My strong suspicion is that, within the UK, a large proportion of atheists were not raised as Christians in other than a nominal and casual manner and therefore drifted into atheism without much thought and never saw any reason to change. In the following generation even that nominal approach disappears.

 

[Jerry N.]

Let me explore the reasons you have encountered for atheists to become atheists in regard to my own situation:

• Disbelieve in God, because of the bad things He has allowed to happen. Not applicable to me. First, I found the "God moves in mysterious ways" an adequate get-out clause. Secondly, by the time I examined that justification more closely I had already abandoned the religion.
• Disbelief because one feels abandoned by God. Nothing especially bad has happened to me, consequently it would have been arrogant of me to get upset over the minor downsides of normal living.
• Disbelief based on a reaction to difficult treatment by the Church. My experiences in this regard were all positive.
• Disbelief prompted by the hypocrisy of some within the Church. I certainly recognise that, but it is a reflection of the imperfection of individuals, not a fault of the religion, or an argument against God.

I readily accept that many people may have become atheists for the reasons you propose, but I do not personally know of any. My strong suspicion is that, within the UK, a large proportion of atheists were not raised as Christians in other than a nominal and casual manner and therefore drifted into atheism without much thought and never saw any reason to change. In the following generation even that nominal approach disappears.

That is a pretty good assessment. In post #346 I wrote, “Some atheists just think the whole idea of God is a bother and silly,” which partly covers what you wrote. I live in a different country, where Catholicism is the norm rather than the exception. Since I'm not Catholic, I might notice things differently.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I understand, but this is called “Christian Forums.” So you are sort of in their house. The fact that you are allowed in, doesn’t mean a certain level of politeness isn’t expected.

..... the fact that this is a "Christian Forums" is part of the underlying reason they're here. And they're not the 'New Atheist' sort of atheists whom I'd argue with ad nauseam a decade ago here on CF. You have to keep this in mind, Jerry.

 

[Jerry N.]

..... the fact that this is a "Christian Forums" is part of the underlying reason they're here. And they're not the 'New Atheist' sort of atheists whom I'd argue with ad nauseam a decade ago here on CF. You have to keep this in mind, Jerry.

Okay, but I don't know what a "New Atheist" is. I look forward to learning what it is , but it is time for bed.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Okay, but I don't know what a "New Atheist" is. I look forward to learning what it is , but it is time for bed.

All you need to know:

 

[Hans Blaster]

Thanks for your post.

Appreciated.

I would only like to mention two things. First of all, I would be careful about calling them liars.

As we all should.

The human mind is a strange thing. I have known atheists who admitted that they say they don’t believe in God, because they are upset with what He has allowed to happen. Others, I suppose, have convinced themselves that there is no God, because they have felt abandoned by the God they once believed in. I knew a lady who hated her ex-husband so much that she told everybody he was dead. He was very much alive, but he was dead in her mind. Her statements were not true, but you would have to know what happened in her mind to say that she was lying or not. It is the same with the “trope” that their pain causes them to deny God. I mentioned my friend, and that was surely the case with him. The other problem is that people call themselves atheists because the church has treated them badly or they have seen so much hypocrisy.

"admitted"
"convinced themselves"
"because they are upset with [God]"
"deny God"

Whether you realize it or not, this is the kind of denial language that many believers use about those of use who no longer have faith. I'm sure you're not deliberately calling us liars, but some times it sure feels like it. Mostly we just want our actual positions to be respected and to avoid any unnecessary insinuations or counter claims. Cheers.

I have bet my soul on Jesus’s work for my salvation. Everyone makes their own choices.

I realize I didn't have one, so the bet was cancelled.

 

[BCP1928]

I understand, but this is called “Christian Forums.” So you are sort of in their house. The fact that you are allowed in, doesn’t mean a certain level of politeness isn’t expected.

The fact that I have to be "allowed" in only if I keep a civil tongue in my head. Oh, my. Bit I'm not the one who decided I must be an atheist.