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Philosophy of love.

MehGuy

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I am curious what people's philosophy of love are. Is there any thing that has helped influenced it? Has your philosophy of loved changed throughout the years? Are you still trying to work it out? Are your views different than the norm? Do you disagree with how others view love?
 

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I find the diversity of words for love in Greek to be useful in distinguishing different types of love. To attempt to answer your questions I would need to know which one, or ones you were primarily thinking of.
 
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MehGuy

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I find the diversity of words for love in Greek to be useful in distinguishing different types of love. To attempt to answer your questions I would need to know which one, or ones you were primarily thinking of.

I know the topic of love is an open ended subject. I wasn't really thinking of anything in particular. I am sure this forum probably at least wants us to stay clear of overt sexual types of love, lol.

I am interested in common themes people value in love. What is the psychology behind it? Do people look at it through a spiritual, evolutionary or ect lens?
 
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I am curious what people's philosophy of love are. Is there any thing that has helped influenced it? Has your philosophy of loved changed throughout the years? Are you still trying to work it out? Are your views different than the norm? Do you disagree with how others view love?

My view is that love desires/seeks the good of the beloved. This idea has been around for a long time. I stumbled upon it as I was wondering and researching the question: What is essential to love? The idea being A is essential to B if and only if B could not exist without A.

What is essential to love? I think there's a tendency to think of certain emotions as being essential to love, e.g., affection, compassion, joy, etc. While love is often attended by these kinds of emotions, they are not essential since love can persist without them.

For example, I can say, without my fingers crossed behind my back, that I love my sister no matter the day or time, i.e., I always love my sister. That being said, I have experienced the whole range of emotions in my relation to her. I have experienced not just warm fuzzy feelings like affection and compassion, but also feelings like sadness, frustration, disappointment, etc. In those times when I am feeling frustration, for instance, I am not feeling those positive emotions often associated with love. I am feeling frustration. Does that mean I don't love her since those feelings associated with love are absent? It does if we assume those feelings are essential to love.

So what is it that remains the same in my love for her as I experience those changing emotions in relation to her? The one thing that remains constant is my desire for her good, for whatever is to her benefit. This, it seems to me, is essential to love. And I would say, if I don't desire the good of the other, I do not love them. Someone who abuses their mate, and then says they love them, are simply lying.

To put this in a Christian context, I think we all have an inherent desire for our own good. Of course, we might do poorly at seeking our own good. As Socrates observed, no one desires evil except out of ignorance. When we make choices that work against us, it is because what seemed good to us was not (it was a misapprehension of the good). But we have a natural desire for our own good, and part of maturity is learning the difference between what is good and what just seems good to us.

When Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself, we can understand that to mean we should extend our natural desire for our own good to others. Just as we naturally desire and seek our own good, we should desire and seek the good of others, as well.

And, what is good? It's whatever works in favor of flourishing life. We don't just desire existence, rocks merely exist. We desire meaningful existence, purpose, fulfilling relationships, etc. So, in general, love seeks what it is good. Love seeks to know what is good, share what is good, benefit what is good, and ultimately abide in goodness. Love seeks goodness.

I will add that loving others, seeking their good, is not manipulative or paternalistic. Love takes into account the dignity and agency of others. This is what can sometimes make love painful because we see our loved one making choices that will work against them, but they are intelligent creatures with agency and cannot simply be forced to do well. So we watch them, encourage them in a good direction, and hope they learn from their mistakes. But, yeah, that's my philosophy of love. Love seeks the good.
 
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MehGuy

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My view is that love desires/seeks the good of the beloved. This idea has been around for a long time. I stumbled upon it as I was wondering and researching the question: What is essential to love? The idea being A is essential to B if and only if B could not exist without A.

What is essential to love? I think there's a tendency to think of certain emotions as being essential to love, e.g., affection, compassion, joy, etc. While love is often attended by these kinds of emotions, they are not essential since love can persist without them.

For example, I can say, without my fingers crossed behind my back, that I love my sister no matter the day or time, i.e., I always love my sister. That being said, I have experienced the whole range of emotions in my relation to her. I have experienced not just warm fuzzy feelings like affection and compassion, but also feelings like sadness, frustration, disappointment, etc. In those times when I am feeling frustration, for instance, I am not feeling those positive emotions often associated with love. I am feeling frustration. Does that mean I don't love her since those feelings associated with love are absent? It does if we assume those feelings are essential to love.

So what is it that remains the same in my love for her as I experience those changing emotions in relation to her? The one thing that remains constant is my desire for her good, for whatever is to her benefit. This, it seems to me, is essential to love. And I would say, if I don't desire the good of the other, I do not love them. Someone who abuses their mate, and then says they love them, are simply lying.

To put this in a Christian context, I think we all have an inherent desire for our own good. Of course, we might do poorly at seeking our own good. As Socrates observed, no one desires evil except out of ignorance. When we make choices that work against us, it is because what seemed good to us was not (it was a misapprehension of the good). But we have a natural desire for our own good, and part of maturity is learning the difference between what is good and what just seems good to us.

When Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself, we can understand that to mean we should extend our natural desire for our own good to others. Just as we naturally desire and seek our own good, we should desire and seek the good of others, as well.

And, what is good? It's whatever works in favor of flourishing life. We don't just desire existence, rocks merely exist. We desire meaningful existence, purpose, fulfilling relationships, etc. So, in general, love seeks what it is good. Love seeks to know what is good, share what is good, benefit what is good, and ultimately abide in goodness. Love seeks goodness.

I will add that loving others, seeking their good, is not manipulative or paternalistic. Love takes into account the dignity and agency of others. This is what can sometimes make love painful because we see our loved one making choices that will work against them, but they are intelligent creatures with agency and cannot simply be forced to do well. So we watch them, encourage them in a good direction, and hope they learn from their mistakes. But, yeah, that's my philosophy of love. Love seeks the good.

Do you think the call to turn the other cheek interferes with this?

Similar sentiments exist in secular circles too, such as the concept of self sacrifice. Not picking on Christianity. While I had a bad experience trying to understand love growing up in a Christian environment, I haven't found much success in secular circles either.
 
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Do you think the call to turn the other cheek interferes with this?

I think it depends on how we read "turn the other cheek." My take is that it's not a call to pacifism, per se, but to avoiding an endless cycle of retribution (think Hatfield and McCoys).

I'll try not to go on too much, but I'll share my reason for that reading, quickly. In Matthew, Jesus says, "You have heard it said an eye for an eye....But I say, if someone strikes you, turn the other cheek..." He specifically points to the retributive justice of an eye for an eye ethic, which too often devolves into a cycle of retribution that ends worse than it started. I think he's saying, stop the cycle before it happens, which is in the best interests of both parties.

It's also significant he doesn't say, If someone beats you within an inch of your life, go back the next day for more. He seems to be referencing something like a slap, which hurts the pride more than anything. So, it's in the interests of both to not let one's hurt pride devolve into something much more serious and destructive, which is loving in the sense I describe above, I think. That's my reading of it, at any rate.

It's also important he rejects an eye for an eye ethic, which is found in the Hebrew scriptures in several places.

Similar sentiments exist in secular circles too, such as the concept of self sacrifice. Not picking on Christianity. While I had a bad experience trying to understand love growing up in a Christian environment, I haven't found much success in secular circles either

Yes, I agree they do, and I didn't mean to say my philosophy of love is only relevant from a Christian point of view. I think it makes sense regardless of religion or lack thereof. I added the Christian bit because I wish more would see it in that way and act accordingly (myself sometimes too, to be fair).

I'm sorry to hear your experience trying to understand love growing up in a Christian environment didn't go well and that it hasn't fared much better in secular circles. Love is challenging, in my experience.

Even as I describe it, it's challenging because we often know what is needed, for ourselves or others, but it's not what we really want. This is a silly example, perhaps, but it pertains to my own love for myself. I brought a salad for lunch because I need to eat healthy, but I just had to talk myself out of going to get a burger because that's what I really want. Lol. Its not easy! That might seem a harmless enough instance, but that same tension between what is needed and what we really want can become a significant issue in more serious cases.
 
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MehGuy

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I think it depends on how we read "turn the other cheek." My take is that it's not a call to pacifism, per se, but to avoiding an endless cycle of retribution (think Hatfield and McCoys).

I'll try not to go on too much, but I'll share my reason for that reading, quickly. In Matthew, Jesus says, "You have heard it said an eye for an eye....But I say, if someone strikes you, turn the other cheek..." He specifically points to the retributive justice of an eye for an eye ethic, which too often devolves into a cycle of retribution that ends worse than it started. I think he's saying, stop the cycle before it happens, which is in the best interests of both parties.

It's also significant he doesn't say, If someone beats you within an inch of your life, go back the next day for more. He seems to be referencing something like a slap, which hurts the pride more than anything. So, it's in the interests of both to not let one's hurt pride devolve into something much more serious and destructive, which is loving in the sense I describe above, I think. That's my reading of it, at any rate.

It's also important he rejects an eye for an eye ethic, which is found in the Hebrew scriptures in several places.



Yes, I agree they do, and I didn't mean to say my philosophy of love is only relevant from a Christian point of view. I think it makes sense regardless of religion or lack thereof. I added the Christian bit because I wish more would see it in that way and act accordingly (myself sometimes too, to be fair).

I'm sorry to hear your experience trying to understand love growing up in a Christian environment didn't go well and that it hasn't fared much better in secular circles. Love is challenging, in my experience.

Even as I describe it, it's challenging because we often know what is needed, for ourselves or others, but it's not what we really want. This is a silly example, perhaps, but it pertains to my own love for myself. I brought a salad for lunch because I need to eat healthy, but I just had to talk myself out of going to get a burger because that's what I really want. Lol. Its not easy! That might seem a harmless enough instance, but that same tension between what is needed and what we really want can become a significant issue in more serious cases.

Well, that is certainly a saner and healthier interpretation than what I heard growing up. Hard to explain, but I was told and thought turning the other cheek was a psychological mind game. One that would surprise and hopefully cause the aggressor to reflect and feel ashamed of his/her actions. While this might actually work sometimes, I certainly wouldn't want to teach an abuse victim this.

I always viewed it similar to the verse about slaves obeying their masters, even cruel ones. But.. yeah maybe this interpretation is incorrect. That the overall reason for exhibiting this type of love was to warm the hearts of the hardened. Kind of similar to the non-violent resistance of Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Although to be fair.. this kind of love can be effective.

I mean.. under special circumstances this behavior can be admirable.. but not so much on an individual level. Just encourages masochism. I have read about Christians turning the other cheek with abusive people, and nothing good comes from it. The abuser just keeps on abusing them.

At least the interpretation I had fit into a major theme I saw/see in Christianity. Love and suffering. I was taught that the greatest act of love is dying for another, that someday the atheists and other non-believers will go postal and torture and kill us. Yet, if one recants being a Christian because you do not want to be tortured and killed God will send you to hell where you will be tortured for all eternity. That God set up the universe that he could express the greatest act of love, and that if a Christian is lucky he can engage in the same love of being tortured and killed.

I mean.. technically.. being tortured and killed for someone can be a great act of love.. and it's normal to find this type of love deeply moving.. but.. to make this extreme act of love the main cornerstone of a religion and constantly meditate on it? Sorry.. but I don't think it's psychologically healthy and if I ever have any children I wouldn't want them constantly wrestling with these concepts.

I want to be fair though. Maybe other Christians legitimately see Christianity in a different context than I did/still do. I do know a lot of early Christian art wasn't morbid, or even super focused on the crucifixion. 1st AD Christians might be shocked with the kind of art/aesthetics and general attitude Christians of latter eras developed.

And, I do know at least a lot of protestant branches seemed to have cooled down with some of these sentiments too. Gory Christian art is probably looked down upon or at least viewed with more suspicion in Christian circles than it was centuries ago.
 
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public hermit

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Well, that is certainly a saner and healthier interpretation than what I heard growing up. Hard to explain, but I was told and thought turning the other cheek was a psychological mind game. One that would surprise and hopefully cause the aggressor to reflect and feel ashamed of his/her actions. While this might actually work sometimes, I certainly wouldn't want to teach an abuse victim this.

I always viewed it similar to the verse about slaves obeying their masters, even cruel ones. But.. yeah maybe this interpretation is incorrect. That the overall reason for exhibiting this type of love was to warm the hearts of the hardened. Kind of similar to the non-violent resistance of Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Although to be fair.. this kind of love can be effective.

I mean.. under special circumstances this behavior can be admirable.. but not so much on an individual level. Just encourages masochism. I have read about Christians turning the other cheek with abusive people, and nothing good comes from it. The abuser just keeps on abusing them.

At least the interpretation I had fit into a major theme I saw/see in Christianity. Love and suffering. I was taught that the greatest act of love is dying for another, that someday the atheists and other non-believers will go postal and torture and kill us. Yet, if one recants being a Christian because you do not want to be tortured and killed God will send you to hell where you will be tortured for all eternity. That God set up the universe that he could express the greatest act of love, and that if a Christian is lucky he can engage in the same love of being tortured and killed.

I mean.. technically.. being tortured and killed for someone can be a great act of love.. and it's normal to find this type of love deeply moving.. but.. to make this extreme act of love the main cornerstone of a religion and constantly meditate on it? Sorry.. but I don't think it's psychologically healthy and if I ever have any children I wouldn't want them constantly wrestling with these concepts.

I want to be fair though. Maybe other Christians legitimately see Christianity in a different context than I did/still do. I do know a lot of early Christian art wasn't morbid, or even super focused on the crucifixion. 1st AD Christians might be shocked with the kind of art/aesthetics and general attitude Christians of latter eras developed.

And, I do know at least a lot of protestant branches seemed to have cooled down with some of these sentiments too. Gory Christian art is probably looked down upon or at least viewed with more suspicion in Christian circles than it was centuries ago.

Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts on this. I want to be careful what I say not only because this is difficult territory to navigate but also because of the abuse that has occurred in the church.

At first blush, it would seem Jesus command to love as he loved us takes things to another level than merely loving our neighbors as ourselves since his example of self-giving love seems to set a higher standard (I'm not sure they are all that different on close analysis, but that's for a different thread). What I think people forget is that his sacrificial love was a conscious act which he chose at the end of his life (of course), but he also lived a whole life before that, and the way lived during that time sets an example, too. Jesus properly loved himself. Not only did he eat, drink, and have friends with whom he enjoyed leisure time but he would also separate himself from everyone else in order to refresh and recharge. And significant for this discussion is how many times he removed himself from situations where people were trying to hurt him. Several times he removes himself from dangerous situations. In short, he understood self-care and self-love and Christians should be teaching that kind of example as well, especially for the sake of those who are abused.

According to the gospels, Jesus is very intentional about his final act of love for humanity. It isn't something taken lightly or done on a whim. He knows what he is doing and he makes a conscious choice to enter into that situation. What really bothers me is when Christians insist for others that they should accept abuse or abusive situations "because Jesus." Jesus did not accept just any abuse. He entered into one specific moment for very specific reasons that he understood and accepted. All that to say, I think significant acts of sacrificial love are an individual decision that should never be entered into lightly. No one can decide for another person that they should endure abuse. And Christians should be quick to help those who are being abused, especially when they have no choice. It's embarrassing and shameful that needs to be said, but it does.

I agree that there can be an inordinate focus on suffering and sacrifice. I love Julian of Norwich, but there are parts of her story and experience that are horrific to me. Perhaps that is because she was in a very dark time (plagues and all) and had a different mind set from today. I think most of those followers of Christ who have consciously made the ultimate sacrifice didn't just up and decide to do that at the last minute. They had already lived lives of small sacrifice, self-denial, and letting go. And that's where the focus needs to be, imo. I don't mean they lived their lives as door-mats. I mean they learned how to let go of their ego (the imaginary self we create in the image of our own desires), how to put others first in little things, and they were grounded in the divine presence so that as they let go, they were also satisfied by the ground and source of their being. In short, they were spiritually mature so that the final act was done in freedom and not coercion. I know that's not true for all who have died for their faith, but it is more in the image of Christ, I think.

Self-giving love isn't a matter of simply accepting abuse that one does not want. It comes from a place of freedom so that anything one might lose, even their life, is hardly comparable to what they already know and experience. I know that sounds wild. And to be quite honest, I doubt many Christians are at that place. I am certainly not. I do know a little of what I speak of, which is why I say these things, but I have a long way to go. That's why I say it would be much better if Christians focused on the little things-helping someone when you might not feel like it, not obsessing over fears but trusting God, learning to let go of resentments, letting go by spending time in the stillness and silence of God's presence, etc. These are the things that lead to great saints that can lay it all down because they have already lived a life letting go of the little things, and they have experienced that joy and peace the world cannot give. In that sense, they become witnesses (martyrs) of what is possible in Christ. But even in all that, they should love themselves as Jesus did.
 
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I am curious what people's philosophy of love are. Is there any thing that has helped influenced it? Has your philosophy of loved changed throughout the years? Are you still trying to work it out? Are your views different than the norm? Do you disagree with how others view love?

Kindness makes more sense for me.

Psalms 89:3

"the world is built with kindness....."


(Psalms 89:3 Kehot publication society.)
 
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Such a tender yet complex question. I’m 23, and honestly, my view of love has changed so much over the past few years. I used to think love meant constantly proving yourself to be worthy. Always giving, always fixing. But after going through some serious grief and loss, I started to see love differently.

Now I think love is more about presence than performance. It’s in the quiet check-ins, in making space for someone’s bad days, in choosing to stay soft even when life hardens you. I don’t think love is always easy or pretty, but I think it’s honest. And when it’s real, it grows you.

I’ve learned that the people who love you for your full self—the grieving, healing, growing self—those are the ones who show you a glimpse of how God loves too. Important to distinguish that love does not mean enabling or letting yourself be hurt by someone who is not good for you. That was a big one for me.

Magdalena
 
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MehGuy

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Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts on this. I want to be careful what I say not only because this is difficult territory to navigate but also because of the abuse that has occurred in the church.

At first blush, it would seem Jesus command to love as he loved us takes things to another level than merely loving our neighbors as ourselves since his example of self-giving love seems to set a higher standard (I'm not sure they are all that different on close analysis, but that's for a different thread). What I think people forget is that his sacrificial love was a conscious act which he chose at the end of his life (of course), but he also lived a whole life before that, and the way lived during that time sets an example, too. Jesus properly loved himself. Not only did he eat, drink, and have friends with whom he enjoyed leisure time but he would also separate himself from everyone else in order to refresh and recharge. And significant for this discussion is how many times he removed himself from situations where people were trying to hurt him. Several times he removes himself from dangerous situations. In short, he understood self-care and self-love and Christians should be teaching that kind of example as well, especially for the sake of those who are abused.

According to the gospels, Jesus is very intentional about his final act of love for humanity. It isn't something taken lightly or done on a whim. He knows what he is doing and he makes a conscious choice to enter into that situation. What really bothers me is when Christians insist for others that they should accept abuse or abusive situations "because Jesus." Jesus did not accept just any abuse. He entered into one specific moment for very specific reasons that he understood and accepted. All that to say, I think significant acts of sacrificial love are an individual decision that should never be entered into lightly. No one can decide for another person that they should endure abuse. And Christians should be quick to help those who are being abused, especially when they have no choice. It's embarrassing and shameful that needs to be said, but it does.

I agree that there can be an inordinate focus on suffering and sacrifice. I love Julian of Norwich, but there are parts of her story and experience that are horrific to me. Perhaps that is because she was in a very dark time (plagues and all) and had a different mind set from today. I think most of those followers of Christ who have consciously made the ultimate sacrifice didn't just up and decide to do that at the last minute. They had already lived lives of small sacrifice, self-denial, and letting go. And that's where the focus needs to be, imo. I don't mean they lived their lives as door-mats. I mean they learned how to let go of their ego (the imaginary self we create in the image of our own desires), how to put others first in little things, and they were grounded in the divine presence so that as they let go, they were also satisfied by the ground and source of their being. In short, they were spiritually mature so that the final act was done in freedom and not coercion. I know that's not true for all who have died for their faith, but it is more in the image of Christ, I think.

Self-giving love isn't a matter of simply accepting abuse that one does not want. It comes from a place of freedom so that anything one might lose, even their life, is hardly comparable to what they already know and experience. I know that sounds wild. And to be quite honest, I doubt many Christians are at that place. I am certainly not. I do know a little of what I speak of, which is why I say these things, but I have a long way to go. That's why I say it would be much better if Christians focused on the little things-helping someone when you might not feel like it, not obsessing over fears but trusting God, learning to let go of resentments, letting go by spending time in the stillness and silence of God's presence, etc. These are the things that lead to great saints that can lay it all down because they have already lived a life letting go of the little things, and they have experienced that joy and peace the world cannot give. In that sense, they become witnesses (martyrs) of what is possible in Christ. But even in all that, they should love themselves as Jesus did.
Fair enough. I haven't really been sure how to respond to this post.

Despite being severely psychologically harmed by my Christian upbringing, my Christian upbringing was also simultaneously very loving. I do often feel quite guilty and even like a bad person for questioning the psychology of my former faith. I don't think its as simple to say all the ideas of love I was taught are inherently bad (given the right delicate context). Just extreme.. and subject matter that seems more akin to something more mature minds like adults should contemplate, not impressionable children.

Even here.. I hear Christians say that Christianity is not easy nor for the faint of heart.. yet it's casually fostered on young minds.

For example, do you think its healthy for Sunday Schools to give romantic accounts of Christians who were tortured and killed for their faith? Seems like even a lot of Christian adults get lost in the romanticism of suffering and love.. how are children supposed to cope? Especially given the different brain chemistry others have? Some children might just brush those teachings off.. but others... these descriptions are very powerful and vivid for them.

It wasn't even until a few years ago (and having been an atheist for over a decade).. that this sick feeling that my life isn't complete until I am given a violent death has mostly went away.

Its just hard.. my Christian family was very loving.. yet what stemmed many of these loving feelings also gave life to very dark sentiments. I feel like they were lost in extreme empathy. While empathy can foster genuine love.. empathy can also become corrupt from constantly focusing on suffering. To the point where you romanticize suffering and devalue or even cannot comprehend love that isn't suffering. To the point where people feel comfortable teaching children that they may someday die for their faith.. and that they should feel honored if they are ever given the chance.

I do not want to ever teach my potential children that.. and its been nerve wracking and soul searching that I have only managed to wake up from these sentiments after losing my faith.
 
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I find the diversity of words for love in Greek to be useful in distinguishing different types of love. To attempt to answer your questions I would need to know which one, or ones you were primarily thinking of.
I agree.
 
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Love is a commitment to the true good of another person.

This definition begs the question: what is the true good of another person? Answer: The Scripture defines it for a multiplicity of situations, and in abundance of counselors there is much wisdom. We may not know the true good of another person exactly, but we must to try to understand it, do it, and fight for it. That is love.

Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments,” (John 14:15) and, unless a person’s command violates the Scriptures, to do what other people ask us to do is loving. In all cases, abusive commands conflict with God’s authority and violate the Scriptures, so following them is not loving. They are lies, for one thing, and break Ephesians 4:32. Loving commands take in account who you are giving the command to. You don’t ask a skinny woman to lift 200 Ibs or a muscle bound bodybuilder to do your taxes. Instead, you tell your skinny female accountant to do your taxes, and you get your strong friend to move your 200 Ibs of refrigerator. The true good of a person is in who God designed them to be.

What really bothers me is when Christians insist for others that they should accept abuse or abusive situations "because Jesus." Jesus did not accept just any abuse. He entered into one specific moment for very specific reasons that he understood and accepted.
I think those people missed the amount of time Jesus denounced the Pharisees and confronted their lies. Jesus battled the Pharisees to his dying breath on the cross, and He won! He conquered sin, death, and hell, and since legalism is sin, and self-righteousness is pride which is also sin, He conquered it all through his death on the cross and his resurrection.

Jesus received the eternal company of His followers for all eternity, permanent authority over the earth, and victory over sin, death, and hell. As Paul wrote “We are more than conquerors through him who loved us.” (Romans 8:37) All the Pharisees got was a dead temple, a torn veil to the Holy of Holies to fix, and going down in history as God’s murderers.

God: Infinity
Pharisees: 0

Which brings us to the multi-million dollar question: What is the true good of an abuser? Answer: To stop abusing people and learn healthier behavior patterns. Who wants to be alone and hurt everyone they know, having to contain a monster inside of themselves?

From the outside, how? You fight back. You don’t let them get away with it, obviously. You stop them from abusing you. You don’t follow their commands. You expose their lies. You tell the truth to them repeatedly. You get your valuable things away from them, including strategically getting your body away from them (and your children away from them, would you leave them in a war zone?). You block their strikes. You bring witnesses. You call the police and lock them up. You testify in court against them. And you do it over and over again until they stop abusing and run out of options.

Never reward an abuser for their behavior. Always stop them from doing it, and always punish them. Eventually they will learn that their abusive behavior doesn’t get them what they want, and so they will stop doing it. You tell them what the right thing to do is in that situation, over and over and over again. You will have to fight their creativity, because they will try to compromise with their parents’ abusive thought processes over and over again. But eventually they will follow your command, because they will have no other choice. Essentially you have to reparent them because their parents did it wrong.

You want to stay in the abusive marriage because you “love him?” The most loving thing you can do for him is get yourself an education in MMA and do calisthenics, get the car titles with ORs instead of ANDs, a Scriptural education and a few weapons. Oh, and make sure you got the police in your phone speed dial. Lions belong in cages, and sometimes people do too. Toughen up, buttercup. Giving in and being his punching bag is enabling in my view. It’s not loving. It’s not going to stop him from being an abuser. His true good may be a prison cell.

An abuser needs salvation, but in order for them to see that they need it, they also need an opponent. Sometimes their best opponent is the law and government. Someone who is trying to heal from abuse will seek out opponents they can’t easily win against on their own, to see their psychological weaknesses that their own abusive parents programmed in.

I say this having had an abusive father myself, and having helped other abuse victims with their trouble. Nobody deserves to be abused, but nobody is entitled to go through life without encountering one or learning how to fight one. We live in a fallen world.

Though for most people, dealing with an abusive relationship and loving an abuser is a huge time and energy drain away from productive economic and familial pursuits. It’s best to avoid them and leave them to professional abuse handlers (read: police) rather than trying to attempt the task of loving them. But if you have to, it can be done.
I feel like they were lost in extreme empathy. While empathy can foster genuine love.. empathy can also become corrupt from constantly focusing on suffering. To the point where you romanticize suffering and devalue or even cannot comprehend love that isn't suffering. To the point where people feel comfortable teaching children that they may someday die for their faith.. and that they should feel honored if they are ever given the chance.
I come from a cold empathy-less family, where practicality reigns. Vibe:


But perhaps it would be helpful to look at Jesus the Healer, who fought against other people’s physical suffering, and Jesus the conqueror, fighter against abusers past and present.

Paul said “we are ambassadors for Christ”(2 Corinthians 5:20). To harm an ambassador in Ancient Rome carried the death penalty. The Lord will judge those who harm His children who proclaim His Gospel when He returns. We are called to spread the the Gospel to the ends of the earth, and to be alive to proclaim the Gospel to those who hear. We can’t tell the truth if we are dead, and therefore we do not seek out death. “I have come that they may have life, and they may have it more abundantly,” (John 10:10) is what the real Jesus said. He died for our sins so we don’t have to.

And we don’t have to die for anyone else’s sins either, especially not our parents’. I encourage you to unzip your toxic family’s teachings from Christianity if you can, because I can reassure you they are not the same.

What you give up when you accept the Gospel is your selfish attempts to reach God on your own, your unbelief and disobedience, your idols and fleshy “false self” of trying to live on your own apart from God’s guidance and direction. It’s NOT “dying to self” in some sort of creepy self-harm sense, it’s dying to sin - getting rid of self-harming behavior and getting rid of seeking out suffering. It is sin that self-harms, sin that destroys, and sin that seeks out death, not Christ.

I’m sorry if that was too harsh, but this is a debate forum and I think people deserve straight truth on this subject.
 
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Fervent

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Love is a conversation...when we talk about it, we tend to talk about it as a subject acting on an object...with the idea being that love is something we do or feel for another...but it is in the interaction, in the giving and receiving, the needing and being needed. Love is not something we can create, but a flame that we can care for. At the risk of being trite, 1 Corinthians 13 covers what it means to love...and contrary to a lot of preaching on the matter, self-sacrifice is not essential to love even if there are cases where it is appropriate.
 
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public hermit

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Fair enough. I haven't really been sure how to respond to this post.

Despite being severely psychologically harmed by my Christian upbringing, my Christian upbringing was also simultaneously very loving. I do often feel quite guilty and even like a bad person for questioning the psychology of my former faith. I don't think its as simple to say all the ideas of love I was taught are inherently bad (given the right delicate context). Just extreme.. and subject matter that seems more akin to something more mature minds like adults should contemplate, not impressionable children.

Even here.. I hear Christians say that Christianity is not easy nor for the faint of heart.. yet it's casually fostered on young minds.

For example, do you think its healthy for Sunday Schools to give romantic accounts of Christians who were tortured and killed for their faith? Seems like even a lot of Christian adults get lost in the romanticism of suffering and love.. how are children supposed to cope? Especially given the different brain chemistry others have? Some children might just brush those teachings off.. but others... these descriptions are very powerful and vivid for them.

It wasn't even until a few years ago (and having been an atheist for over a decade).. that this sick feeling that my life isn't complete until I am given a violent death has mostly went away.

Its just hard.. my Christian family was very loving.. yet what stemmed many of these loving feelings also gave life to very dark sentiments. I feel like they were lost in extreme empathy. While empathy can foster genuine love.. empathy can also become corrupt from constantly focusing on suffering. To the point where you romanticize suffering and devalue or even cannot comprehend love that isn't suffering. To the point where people feel comfortable teaching children that they may someday die for their faith.. and that they should feel honored if they are ever given the chance.

I do not want to ever teach my potential children that.. and its been nerve wracking and soul searching that I have only managed to wake up from these sentiments after losing my faith.

I agree that we should be careful how we teach the Christian faith to children. As you mention, children have different temperaments. I don't know that romanticizing martyrdom is ever a good idea. At any rate, I had a tough time growing up in the church. Because of my temperament and also the particular tradition in which I grew up, I always felt burdened with guilt, which is not something a child should experience. That overwhelming sense of guilt is a big reason why I gave up the faith in high school. That, and I also realized that adults seemed just as incapable of "being good" as me. For someone who had not yet lived long enough to make their own mistakes, that really bothered me. I see things differently now, lol, but back then it really turned me off from the faith.
 
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Ophiolite

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I am interested in common themes people value in love. What is the psychology behind it? Do people look at it through a spiritual, evolutionary or ect lens?
Just over two weeks ago you responded to my observation that I couldn't properly comment till you defined what kind of love you were referring to, citing the multiplicity of words they have to identify those kinds. On reflection, I suspect the following:
  • The themes, psychology and perception vary enormously depending upon the kind of love.
  • The themes, psychology and perception vary enormously depending upon the nature, experience and environment of the individual.
  • Some? Many? Most don't think about it at all, but simply experience it.
My conclusion is that the latter is the best approach: just engage with it and be grateful it is possible to experience it and express it, whether it is the product of our evolutionary history, or a gift from your God, or a combination of the two.
 
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MehGuy

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I come from a cold empathy-less family, where practicality reigns.

Were your parents also Christian and very serious about the faith? If it helps to paint a picture of my own personal experience with Christians, I was raised non-denominational. Compared to the denominational churches I visited with friends which I found as cold and honestly a little scary, the Churches I went to were much more laid back and informal.

My father grew up Catholic and hated it, describing it as very cold with creepy aesthetics. Comments I have found interesting. Which helps explains the Church settings I attended.

Still.. my non-denominational Church glorified martyrdom, and also saw a lot from the sufferings of Jesus.

The thing is.. these warmer more empathetic churches are engaging in high(extreme) empathy. Where one is constantly being emotionally engaged in the suffering of others. Suffering can easily be put on pedestal with this mindset. Where suffering and love are constantly being entangled. The more empathetic you are the more extreme this can get.

So despite my Church settings not having dark, cold and creepy aesthetics the danger of glorifying suffering is still high. Maybe even worse compared to denominational Churches in some cases.

Less aesthetic, but still psychological.

But perhaps it would be helpful to look at Jesus the Healer, who fought against other people’s physical suffering, and Jesus the conqueror, fighter against abusers past and present.

Paul said “we are ambassadors for Christ”(2 Corinthians 5:20). To harm an ambassador in Ancient Rome carried the death penalty. The Lord will judge those who harm His children who proclaim His Gospel when He returns. We are called to spread the the Gospel to the ends of the earth, and to be alive to proclaim the Gospel to those who hear. We can’t tell the truth if we are dead, and therefore we do not seek out death. “I have come that they may have life, and they may have it more abundantly,” (John 10:10) is what the real Jesus said. He died for our sins so we don’t have to.

I am sure Christianity celebrates healing pain, but it also tries to see a lot in it too.

The very concept of mixing God and love seems to be a very toxic way to teach love to a child. Regardless of the religion or just as a default belief in a God.. you are teaching them to find love in a being who has allowed horrible suffering in the world. A religious child has to make sense of that.. while an atheist child does not. This seems like a fundamental difference between the theistic and atheistic mindset. A distinction I find very important.

And we don’t have to die for anyone else’s sins either, especially not our parents’. I encourage you to unzip your toxic family’s teachings from Christianity if you can, because I can reassure you they are not the same.

I can't. Because I think they represent a valid form of Christianity. Valid doesn't mean I don't think they aren't toxic.. but it's a worry I can never unsee.

To be clear, we probably view "Christianity" with very different lenses. Especially me being an atheist and you a theist.

I view Christianity in a secular sense. A religion I do not view as real, but still an idea that influences people and whole cultures. There isn't any reason for me to unzip anything.

What you give up when you accept the Gospel is your selfish attempts to reach God on your own, your unbelief and disobedience, your idols and fleshy “false self” of trying to live on your own apart from God’s guidance and direction. It’s NOT “dying to self” in some sort of creepy self-harm sense, it’s dying to sin - getting rid of self-harming behavior and getting rid of seeking out suffering. It is sin that self-harms, sin that destroys, and sin that seeks out death, not Christ.

I’m sorry if that was too harsh, but this is a debate forum and I think people deserve straight truth on this subject.

That's one interpretation.

I don't think you are being harsh. I want people to be honest with me.. we would just lead to slanted conclusions otherwise.. I am critical of empathy.. especially it's tendency to make one overly sensitive to criticism. Either to yourself or select others. Abuse thrives in uncritical environments.

Part of the path to being loving is understanding this.
 
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MehGuy

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I agree that we should be careful how we teach the Christian faith to children. As you mention, children have different temperaments. I don't know that romanticizing martyrdom is ever a good idea.

Sadly how realistic is it to not romanticize martyrdom? Almost feels like it's built in.

Here is an interesting video by a former Christian who explains his own experiences. He actually grew up in a missionary family.

Also reading some of the comments, they are pretty harrowing.


At any rate, I had a tough time growing up in the church. Because of my temperament and also the particular tradition in which I grew up, I always felt burdened with guilt, which is not something a child should experience. That overwhelming sense of guilt is a big reason why I gave up the faith in high school. That, and I also realized that adults seemed just as incapable of "being good" as me. For someone who had not yet lived long enough to make their own mistakes, that really bothered me. I see things differently now, lol, but back then it really turned me off from the faith.

What kind of denomination did you grow up under?

I am sorry to hear about your issues with guilt. Was it a very legalistic environment?

Visiting religious trauma forums, the reasons for psychological damage varies. I used to think the submissive aspect of Christianity (relevant in most other religions really) was mostly harmless.. but after reading about other people who had a bad experience with it.. I had to rethink that stance. Which is sad.. but goes to show we all have blind spots.

I try to be rational about other people's blindspots in return. Saying all this, I don't want to act like I grew up in a rough or mean Christian environment. If anything I grew up in one of the better Christian environments. But.. that still doesn't mean certain aspects of the faith can't really hurt you.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I find the diversity of words for love in Greek to be useful in distinguishing different types of love.
Here's a more detailed breakdown:
  • Eros (ἔρως):
    This word refers to passionate, romantic love, often associated with sexual desire and attraction.

    • Philia (φιλία):
      This word describes the love found in deep friendship, a bond built on loyalty, shared experiences, and mutual respect.
    • Storge (στοργή):
      Storge signifies the love within families, a natural affection and bond between parents and children, or siblings.
    • Agape (ἀγάπη):
      Agape represents selfless, unconditional love, often associated with divine love or love for humanity.
    • Ludus (Λούδος):
      This word captures the playful, flirtatious aspect of love, often seen in the early stages of a relationship or with a crush.
    • Pragma (πράγμα):
      Pragma denotes a love that is enduring, mature, and based on commitment and understanding, often found in long-term relationships.
 
  • Informative
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linux.poet

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I come from a cold empathy-less family, where practicality reigns.

Pragma denotes a love that is enduring, mature, and based on commitment and understanding, often found in long-term relationships.
I used the term “practicality”, but I could have just as easily have used the word “pragmatic” to describe my family environment growing up. Most marriages are based in pragma in addition to Eros, ludus, and storge.

Most marriages begin with ludus and Eros and end in bedpans, medical appointments, and paperwork. That statement is pragma. Many recent church teachings about marriage have emphasized pragma and philia at the expense of Eros and ludus.
Were your parents also Christian and very serious about the faith?
Yes. We used to read Our Daily Bread every night, attend church every Sunday, and we went to Awana on Wednesday. My mom had us practice our Awana verses at home.
If it helps to paint a picture of my own personal experience with Christians, I was raised non-denominational.
I was raised non-denominational as well, though it was in a “Bible Church” setting that emphasized intellectual prowess (scripture memorization, understanding, and application) rather than any sort of empathy or martyrdom glorification.

What you are describing sounds more like “charismatic” non-denominational, more in line with Pentecostalism than the more Dallas Theological Seminary-style preaching environment I’ve known. Formalities have varied, I’ve attended three churches with pews and about as many with chairs, but all have plain crosses at the front, no crucifixes, if there was anything on the walls at all.
The very concept of mixing God and love seems to be a very toxic way to teach love to a child. Regardless of the religion or just as a default belief in a God.. you are teaching them to find love in a being who has allowed horrible suffering in the world. A religious child has to make sense of that.. while an atheist child does not. This seems like a fundamental difference between the theistic and atheistic mindset. A distinction I find very important.
The ready explanation I was given was that love has to be a choice - in order for us to truly love, we had to be free to not love, and also suffer the consequences of not-loving. What not-love does to us is horrifying and damaging, but it had to exist to allow us to voluntarily commit to the true good of God, and ourselves.

Deuteronomy 6:5 said:
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Or as another put it “God wants sons and daughters, not robots.”

Again, this was given to me as a child, I wasn’t left to grapple with the question. God wanted us to be able to love him, and that is why he let us fall and went to the pain of redeeming us. Love is an expensive virtue that comes at a heavy cost.

To God, the cost was a lot of us, “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” that are going to end up in the lake of fire. Not to mention the separation between his only Son and Him for hours on the cross and watching Him die a horrific death while He poured out His wrath that we deserved on Him.

To us, the cost of love is fighting our fallen bodies and the fallen creation that that the fallen bodies rely on to proclaim the Gospel for as long as God allows us to stay here. The suffering we endure is in fighting to stay alive, not racing toward death.

In view of that, martyrdom glorification is garbage. The reason the church esteems martyrs is because they proclaimed the Gospel and continued to proclaim the Gospel in the face of corrupt governments that killed them. The reason they are esteemed is because of their stand for the faith, not because of their death. The fact that they did not waver from their testimony of the Truth is authenticated by their death, but you don’t need to suffer a death at the hands of a corrupt government to know that Your faith in the Gospel is real. That idea is absurd. Was Billy Graham martyred? No? Does anyone question his Christianity? Does the church not rightly esteem him for his stand for the faith and his willingness to proclaim the Gospel?

What about my uncle who preached the Gospel at rescue missions and at churches and was faithful to Christ and the Gospel until the end? He died of pancreatic cancer. Does the method of his death make him less of a Christian? I think not.
Abuse thrives in uncritical environments.
I agree with this.

However, an important caveat: some abusers are world champion criticizers. In order for criticism to root out abuse, it has to be a two-way street. The criticism must flow freely from victim back to the abuser for that to work. If the abuser is criticizing the victim, that’s not a sign of growth in the relationship.

Uncritical environments allow abuse to thrive; but a critical environment does not prevent abuse either. Criticism becomes insults which turn into threats and punishments, and then we’re back at abuse. True criticism allows the recipient to solve the problem and repair the relationship to the critic; abusive criticism is assigning impossible tasks to people for the purpose of insulting and punishing them for not doing what they cannot do.
I don't think you are being harsh. I want people to be honest with me.. we would just lead to slanted conclusions otherwise.. I am critical of empathy.. especially it's tendency to make one overly sensitive to criticism. Either to yourself or select others.

Sadly how realistic is it to not romanticize martyrdom?
I’m being a little bit forceful because a lot of this is personal to me, and when my emotions get behind words I get the “you’re too harsh” accusation, especially from those who grew up with empathy. But seeing as you are critical of it, maybe I took the right tack. I’m actually pretty self-critical, because I know that I’m posting from a position of bias because I was raised in a harsh and critical environment.

The way I think about this is pretty simple: “To live is Christ and to die is gain.” (Philippians 1:21). But also, the 4th command against murder is against taking one’s own life too.

Imagine that you are in a closed country where the Gospel is not allowed to be proclaimed, and you are within a mile from the border of an open country where you will be safe. You are in a holding cell, and you have 24 hours to get out of the cell before you are moved to the central capital for your execution. You notice 1 loose brick in the back of your cell that is cracked. Do you pull the brick out on the slim chance you can pull the wall out and dig a quick tunnel to the surface and escape?

Or do you sit down and say to yourself “I will accept my glorious death on behalf of the Gospel.” and not do anything? What do you think a good Christian would do?

Everything in me is screaming “Pull that brick and get out of there!”. If you could go on, if you could live, is giving up and resigning yourself to your death not suicide? You’re cutting yourself off when you could have gone on. How many more people could have heard the Gospel if you had made it out of that cell? Accepting martyrdom when you could have avoided it is a cause for guilt in my view.

Which is harder? Accepting death is passive. It requires no effort. When you’re suffering from spiritual trauma from people you may love rejecting you for your faith, it’s easier just to give up and die rather than dig a tunnel, run a mile, and fill out asylum applications and building a new life in another country. It’s always harder to live.

Back in 2016, I wanted to commit suicide, and Christianity actually stopped me from doing so. I was suffering because of my stand that my abusive father was violating several passages of Scripture, which wasn’t really as intense as the Gospel, but I was pretty much at the end of my psychological rope. My nervous system was suffering from severe trauma, I was barely able to get out of bed in the morning and playing Solitaire on the computer until my nervous system passed out from giddy shock. I thought the easy way out was just to off myself.

I thought about it for a few days. But in the end, I concluded that I didn’t deserve to die and I would be better off shooting my dad and everyone else who was not listening and taking his side instead. I didn’t want to explain to Christ why I had given up. In your view, it seems, after I killed myself, I would have entered heaven to applause and “well done, good and faithful servant”. I refuse to believe that. I’m pretty sure a firm talking to for my sin would have happened. I didn’t want to explain to God why I had given up.

Of course, I didn’t end up killing my father either, because that would have sent me to jail, and I think I am more effective for Christ out here. The point was that I was able to think of a solution to my problem, no matter how bad, so I had no excuse for giving into death. This led me on the path to thinking of better solutions. This is true of martyrdom situations as well. It’s hard to escape the Roman Empire, so I cut the Roman martyrs some slack, but I think you get the point.

To be a martyr is, on some level, to be a failure.

Some people have taken this story and claimed my resistance to suicide is not Christianity and it’s only me, but my retort is that is a Jungian argument. They are not arguing from Christianity when they make that claim. The return is that, well your argument against suicide is Jungian and Kantian then. I return that by telling them that two philosophies can arrive at the same result, that doesn’t mean they are the same, it’s an intellectual simulacra. Using the sustainance of my rational consciousness to proclaim the Gospel is using it as a means to an end and that’s anti-Kant. Christ is the hero I am proclaiming and that’s anti-Jung.
 
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