Lust - What does normal look like?

[RG2009]

What does normal look like for experience and life long christians? i am new and recovering from 20 years of pornography not realizing it was a problem. im a full believer in god and jesus christ, learning and believing more every day. i grew up in a secular home, more so athiest. parents divorced in 5th grade, dad moved out and only loving me with material, and my mother worked swing shift. so i was basically raised by grandmothers and my friends in public school. in 6th grade is where it all started, and it became like brushing your teeth, just a habit. im married now with 2 kids and want to be the parents i never had, and God is helping me with that. but since my community and family has tainted my developmental years where a kid grows, i have no idea what is normal.

What i believe as of now, Masturbation is bad, and so is lust. However the lust is confusing me. i understand that if i look at a woman for more than just a couple seconds and/or have sexual thoughts like "thats nice" or "id like to..." i feel like that is obiously lust. But is it bad to notice that a woman is attractive? is it bad to have lustful thoughts with my wife? i was attracted to her for both her looks and her foundational beliefs. is it bad for me to desire my wife sexually? some of this just seems so contradictory in this area and vague. I love my wife and sex is gods gift, and i have changed and am still changing and i love those intimate private moments with her, but i almost feel wrong for desiring her, and i dont know if that is a misunderstanding or not.

i just have no examples to work off of and no one to talk to about this. i go to celebrate recovery, and that is great and all. but i cant ask them what is normal because they have my same problem, so something went wrong at some point.

Any input is appreciated.

 

[RDKirk]

The Greek word word translated as “lust” in English can refer to strong desire or longing, and not necessarily something sexual. The Greek word behind this is most often ἐπιθυμία (epithymia), which can mean either positive or negative desire depending on the context.

Jesus' desire to eat the Passover (Last Supper) in Luke 22:15 and Paul's desire to see the Thessalonians again in 1 Thessalonians 2:17 are examples where epithymia is used positively in scripture.

There are three other examples in the New Testament:

Philippians 1:23 –- Desire to be with Christ

Hebrews 6:11 –- Desire for diligence

Luke 16:21 –- Hunger (Lazarus)

In biblical terms, a lust (epithymia) becomes a sin when the object of the desire is forbidden or the desire overpowers self-control or proper priorities, even if the object is good.

An example of sinful lust is Romans 7:7,8:

“...Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence [epithymia]…”

And again in Galatians 5:16–17:

“...ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”

Lust becomes sinful when it violates God’s boundaries or becomes a god in itself. The issue is not that we desire and sometimes not what we desire, but always how we act on that desire.

Paul says in Romans 6 that "your master is the one you obey." When you "obey your thirst," you have turned your lust into your god.

So, can your desire for sex with your wife be sinful? Yes, if you let that lust control your decisions and actions. No, when you keep it in its rightful place among your life priorities.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

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[linux.poet]

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[Richard T]

The Greek word word translated as “lust” in English can refer to strong desire or longing, and not necessarily something sexual. The Greek word behind this is most often ἐπιθυμία (epithymia), which can mean either positive or negative desire depending on the context.

Jesus' desire to eat the Passover (Last Supper) in Jesus' desire to eat the Passover (Last Supper) in Luke 22:15 and Paul's desire to see the Thessalonians again in 1 Thessalonians 2:17 are examples where epithymia is used positively in scripture.

There are three other examples in the New Testament:

Philippians 1:23 –- Desire to be with Christ

Hebrews 6:11 –- Desire for diligence

Luke 16:21 –- Hunger (Lazarus)

In biblical terms, a lust (epithymia) becomes a sin when the object of the desire is forbidden or the desire overpowers self-control or proper priorities, even if the object is good.

An example of sinful lust is Romans 7:7,8:

“...Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence [epithymia]…”

And again in Galatians 5:16–17:

“...ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”

Lust becomes sinful when it violates God’s boundaries or becomes a god in itself. The issue is not that we desire and sometimes not what we desire, but always how we act on that desire.

Paul says in Romans 6 that "your master is the one you obey." When you "obey your thirst," you have turned your lust into your god.

So, can your desire for sex with your wife be sinful? Yes, if you let that lust control your decisions and actions. No, when you keep it in its rightful place among your life priorities.

How can lust for your wife be wrong as you both are already one? Paul already knew that marriage would distract from ministry. But I think Paul neglects the idea that two are better than one, that a couple can multiply a ministry through God. In some cases singles will not even be hired as a pastor. I would consider that too much lust/love time together could be sinful. This though is only because you do have other responsibilities. God even was aware of that when giving Duet 24:5 for newlyweds.
When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

I think too there is room to distinguish between selfish lust and love as secularists even do this. Ai quoted this thought: "Lust is primarily driven by physical attraction and sexual desire, while love encompasses deeper emotional connection, commitment, and care for the other person."

I think a great marriage would have both. Song of Solomon I think encompasses both.

Song of Songs 4:9-14 (KJV)
9 Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.
10 How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!
11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.
12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:

So are there any sinful lusts that exist in a married couple? I don't think so as long as the focus is on each other.

 

[Richard T]

What does normal look like for experience and life long christians? i am new and recovering from 20 years of pornography not realizing it was a problem. im a full believer in god and jesus christ, learning and believing more every day. i grew up in a secular home, more so athiest. parents divorced in 5th grade, dad moved out and only loving me with material, and my mother worked swing shift. so i was basically raised by grandmothers and my friends in public school. in 6th grade is where it all started, and it became like brushing your teeth, just a habit. im married now with 2 kids and want to be the parents i never had, and God is helping me with that. but since my community and family has tainted my developmental years where a kid grows, i have no idea what is normal.

What i believe as of now, Masturbation is bad, and so is lust. However the lust is confusing me. i understand that if i look at a woman for more than just a couple seconds and/or have sexual thoughts like "thats nice" or "id like to..." i feel like that is obiously lust. But is it bad to notice that a woman is attractive? is it bad to have lustful thoughts with my wife? i was attracted to her for both her looks and her foundational beliefs. is it bad for me to desire my wife sexually? some of this just seems so contradictory in this area and vague. I love my wife and sex is gods gift, and i have changed and am still changing and i love those intimate private moments with her, but i almost feel wrong for desiring her, and i dont know if that is a misunderstanding or not.

i just have no examples to work off of and no one to talk to about this. i go to celebrate recovery, and that is great and all. but i cant ask them what is normal because they have my same problem, so something went wrong at some point.

Any input is appreciated.

I did not comment on much of what you are seeking but I did give some thoughts about lust inside of marriage in a later response. I will say that in my reading of the subject there are differences of opinions as to what constitutes lust and sexual sin and where the boundaries are drawn. I think some of this is up to an individual conscience, which is kind of difficult when the conscience has been violated from previous life experiences. Hopefully others will offer their take. God bless

 

[RDKirk]

How can lust for your wife be wrong as you both are already one?

I'm "one" with my stomach, but prioritizing my stomach above God would also be a sin.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Lust absolutely should not be conflated with a normal biological urge for sexual release. The latter is just part of being human, and it is going to happen regardless of being married or not. I disagree completely with the OP with respect to masturbation. It is a very useful tool when sex is not an option so we don't go crazy on account of libido. WIth that said, it should be saved for when there is real physical need, and we shouidn't be doing it on every whim or making excuses to do it.

As far as lust goes, I tend to define it more narrowly. The modern church conflates it with simple sexual appetite, and I think it's totally unbiblical. Lust to me is wanting sex with someone who's off-limits. Married men shouldn't want sex with another women, and so forth. People shouldn't want relations with others of the same sex, etc.

You all are free to agree or disagree.

 

[Paidiske]

@RDKirk gave you a very good response.

My kind of simple rule-of-thumb around when a sex drive becomes lust in a sinful way, is about when you'd choose to act inappropriately on it.

So, for example, it's not sinful to notice that someone other than your wife is attractive. It becomes a problem when you choose to (or would choose to, were there not external constraints) engage in inappropriate sexual behaviour with that other person.

Similarly, it's not sinful to be sexually attracted to your wife! But if that attraction would see you behave inappropriate - pressure or coerce her, for example - it becomes a problem.

 

[Richard T]

I'm "one" with my stomach, but prioritizing my stomach above God would also be a sin.

I acknowledge that everyone has priorities and that priorities come from God. However, the position of a husband and wife seem to be a very high priority and the requirement of doing away with lust or how much is allowed seems rather silent, unless God has specifically told a person to do something else, or interferes with work etc. So yes, there is some discipline but I am thinking perhaps much less than what you would suggest. So I question how much sex is too much inside of marriage? Admittedly, one does not have to be enthralled all the time, to really desire and want to have sex. This is clear from I Cor. 7 as shown below. One could suggest such a limit would be defrauding the spouse as verse 5 implies. So if a man in his heart lusts after his wife all the time, as long as it does not interfere with something else that God has directed you to do, then I think one has their priorities right. Paul even says this will happen, that a married man will do things to please his wife. Perhaps this is just love as it is not "me" centered as lust might be. But I think when one desires their wife that too is not just lust, it is a desire to be together for their sake too. So perhaps the concept of lust should be qualified. I do not see it in this way as a sin though Paul sees marriage (and I assume sex is included) it as an impediment to ministry. Priorities though do not answer the question can one lust after their spouse? Given passages in the Song of Solomon, it would seem to be allowable. Lust though as I previously mentioned should include giving to what the other wants. So not just a desire to please ourself but a desire to please the other likely accompanies lust.
Where this is tricky is that all our lives before marriage we are taught not to lust. But all of a sudden within the bounds of marriage and likely at least some of the courting period, lusts or desire are still fleshly like food, but God gives the green light whereas previously it was a red light. Of course not everyone has the same level of desire but hopefully some is there. Most do think that lusts and infatuations may wear off. Yes, for sexual pleasure, I think spouses change over time. But does lust as a coveted desire for their spouse, seems good and even better if it increases (again assuming it is not fully concentrated on self). That in the context of marriage it is good, outside the context of marriage it is adultery if married, or other sexual sin if at least not courting. Now I doubt most marry for lust but I would assume that is part of the package? I'm open to correction though. With food it seems easy to draw the line. Gluttony is a sin. For sex I think most have a natural limit though some do certainly have more libido than others. Lusting might take one's mind off God in between and a mind stayed on God is perfect peace. So maybe some balance is in order which I imagine most would have.

1 Corinthians 7:33 (KJV)
33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

1 Corinthians 7:3-5 (KJV)
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.