Ellen White: Meat eating weakens moral powers

[The Liturgist]

I may have missed it in the church fathers, and am no expert on their writings, but I have not encountered them warning against sex with your spouse due to the draining of your "vital force." Perhaps you can point it out.

Certainly the Scriptures did not warn about this.

The Scriptures do warn against fornication, adultery, etc. But Proverbs does not warn against sex with your spouse:

Proverbs 5:15-23 15 Drink water from your own cistern,​

flowing water from your own well.​

16 Should your springs be scattered abroad,​

streams of water in the streets?​

17 Let them be for yourself alone,​

and not for strangers with you.​

18 Let your fountain be blessed,​

and rejoice in the wife of your youth,​

19 a lovely deer, a graceful doe.​

Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight;​

be intoxicated always in her love.​

20 Why should you be intoxicated, my son, with a forbidden woman​

and embrace the bosom of an adulteress?​

21 For a man’s ways are before the eyes of the LORD,​

and he ponders all his paths.​

22 The iniquities of the wicked ensnare him,​

and he is held fast in the cords of his sin.​

23 He dies for lack of discipline,​

and because of his great folly he is led astray.​

​

Paul acknowledges that some have a vocation of being single to serve the Lord. And he acknowledges abstaining by mutual consent for times of fasting and prayer.

But he also points out that those who do not have the gift of singleness, in light of the sexual immorality in the world, should each have their own spouse, and should render to each other the affection due the other. And they should not deprive one another.

1 Corinthians 7:2-5 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (NKJV)​

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This is correct, the early Church Fathers did not subscribe to EGW’s beliefs about sex within marriage.

 

[tall73]

Getting back to the topic, Abraham also was not rebuked for eating meat, or serving it to the LORD:

Genesis 18:1-8 1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”​

They said, “Do as you have said.”​

6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. (NKJV)​

 

[KevinT]

Getting back to the topic, Abraham also was not rebuked for eating meat, or serving it to the LORD:

Looks like this is an old thread being resurrected....

I have read through many of the posts here and have a few thoughts.

• It may be a trap to consider the exact wording in the Bible to be the only factors to be considered. E.g. "The Bible doesn't say that I should avoid injecting methamphetamine, so you can't tell me to stop my favorite drug." I'm giving a ridiculous and exaggerated example to highlight extremes that someone foolish might take. The Bible contains some statements supporting having a party with alcohol (Deut 14:26), but common sense can help someone today to see that alcohol sometimes devastates lives, and needs to be considered with caution. Meat consumption in the Bible might be an entirely different situation that patrons of McDonald's experience. So there is an important role in using our God-given intellect to make wise choices.
  
  
• If one accepts E. White as a prophet, then one has to also consider that never before has there been the voluminous output of recorded advice. Agabus was a NT prophet who prophesied of Paul's imprisonment. And if we were to travel back in time and talk to him, he likely also had very definite views on how people should behave and dress and talk and eat. But none of that was written down. Prophets are not God's speakerphone. They receive instruction and messages, but they also have their own past beliefs etc mixed up in there. The prophet Samuel from the Old Testament acted like a circuit judge. If we had written record of everything he ever said or every decision that he made when trying civil cases, I expect it would be hard to understand.

Thus many of the posts that I read seemed to say, "The Bible never criticized meat, so White has no grounds to do so now." And with this line of thinking, God could never introduce a new teaching to humanity. And furthermore, it is easy to find this writing of White or that which seems silly because so MUCH was written. Some of this might be teaching from God that requires careful consideration, but some might be just her own good intentions resulting from influence from those around her.

Lastly, there were many posts about how a plant based diet was not healthy. Different situations and circumstances call for different diets. But in general, there is very good evidence that it can be part of a healthy lifestyle.

P.s. This was a good video by Mark Rober about meat substitutes -- and it also discussed the worldwide impact of meat diets.

KT

 

[Gregory Thompson]

 

[KevinT]

LOL! The vegan police were hilarious.

KT

 

[prodromos]

Chicken isn't vegan?

 

[RileyG]

Chicken isn't vegan?

Chicken is an animal There are more chickens on earth than humans. For every human, there are about 3 chickens.

 

[prodromos]

Chicken is an animal There are more chickens on earth than humans. For every human, there are about 3 chickens.

I was quoting Todd Ingram from the movie clip

 

[trophy33]

For every human, there are about 3 chickens.

Oh mine, we need to hurry to buy some!

 

[prodromos]

Oh mine, we need to hurry to buy some!

In New Zealand, there are roughly 4.5 sheep for every human.

 

[trophy33]

In New Zealand, there are roughly 4.5 sheep for every human.

I have never eaten lamb meat, if I remember correctly. Only sheep yogurt and cheese. Pork and poultry is much more common, here.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have never eaten lamb meat, if I remember correctly. Only sheep yogurt and cheese. Pork and poultry is much more common, here.

Lamb is delicious. If you have the opportunity I highly recommend it. Mutton, on the other hand, which historically was fed to peasants and other poor folks, is another story.

 

[RileyG]

I was quoting Todd Ingram from the movie clip

Ahhh, I see

 

[tall73]

I have read through many of the posts here and have a few thoughts.

• It may be a trap to consider the exact wording in the Bible to be the only factors to be considered. E.g. "The Bible doesn't say that I should avoid injecting methamphetamine, so you can't tell me to stop my favorite drug." I'm giving a ridiculous and exaggerated example to highlight extremes that someone foolish might take. The Bible contains some statements supporting having a party with alcohol (Deut 14:26), but common sense can help someone today to see that alcohol sometimes devastates lives, and needs to be considered with caution.

We have a thread on that as well:

Adventists-Bible does not prohibit all alcohol.

Again; 1) Ephesians 5:18 Paul shows drunkeness is a PROCESS therefore the first drink is sinful for it is that start of the process and therefore it is as much of the process as the subsequent drinks. No, it is just what it says, prolonged intoxication. You have based your argument throughout...

www.christianforums.com

• Meat consumption in the Bible might be an entirely different situation that patrons of McDonald's experience. So there is an important role in using our God-given intellect to make wise choices.

Yes, there are factors present today that were not then. Ellen White also mentions factors in her day that were not present then.

But that is why this particular thread was more focused on the claims regarding moral powers, in connection with the people of Israel at the time.

Because the specific wording of the Bible at that time is at odds with Ellen White's statements of God's desires for Israel at that time.

While folks enjoy the part of the discussion dealing with diet today, this is not a thread about what is the best advisable diet today. It is a thread looking at Ellen White's statements about a particular time period of biblical history, and how it does not match the text. In other words, it is a thread looking at Ellen White as a prophet.

• If one accepts E. White as a prophet, then one has to also consider that never before has there been the voluminous output of recorded advice. Agabus was a NT prophet who prophesied of Paul's imprisonment. And if we were to travel back in time and talk to him, he likely also had very definite views on how people should behave and dress and talk and eat. But none of that was written down. Prophets are not God's speakerphone. They receive instruction and messages, but they also have their own past beliefs etc mixed up in there. The prophet Samuel from the Old Testament acted like a circuit judge. If we had written record of everything he ever said or every decision that he made when trying civil cases, I expect it would be hard to understand.

Thus many of the posts that I read seemed to say, "The Bible never criticized meat, so White has no grounds to do so now."

And with this line of thinking, God could never introduce a new teaching to humanity. And furthermore, it is easy to find this writing of White or that which seems silly because so MUCH was written. Some of this might be teaching from God that requires careful consideration, but some might be just her own good intentions resulting from influence from those around her.

Indeed, some posts have focused on diet today. But the point of the thread is not that, which is why, when I bumped it back up to get to issues raised recently in the other thread on inspiration, I noted I was getting it back on topic. Israel are Abraham's descendants. And neither Abraham nor his descendants we warned in Scripture against a flesh diet, because it would reduce their moral powers.

Nor is the thread focused on whether God can introduce new instruction today.

Rather, it is looking at how Ellen White approached what God intended for Israel in their own day.

Meat was not condemned for Israel. The text says they could eat it, and in some cases, commanded them to eat it.

That is not in line with Ellen White's characterization of God's will for Israel in regards to meat eating.

And I see no way to square them. It is a bit unclear if you are saying you are not trying to square them, because they are just her views mixed in, or if you are saying that it is different now than it was then.

The issue of it being different now than it was then doesn't address the main contention of the thread, which dealt with her characterization of God's will for Israel, and the Scriptures in regards to God's will for Israel. Those were both dealing with then, not now. So God's ability to introduce new teaching, or the best diet now, don't speak to the point that Ellen White said God intended something for Israel that was the opposite of what the Scriptures said.

Now, certainly Ellen White in various places does see increased problems with the food supply in the end times, from her day forward. And a thread on that would be a better place to look at how to apply biblical principles to the current situation, similar to the alcohol thread referenced above.

But this is looking more at how she does not seem to agree with Scripture, when speaking about Scriptural history.

Lastly, there were many posts about how a plant based diet was not healthy. Different situations and circumstances call for different diets. But in general, there is very good evidence that it can be part of a healthy lifestyle.

As I noted , I think some folks do well on it, but it does have to be done carefully. Perhaps a thread could be started that looks at the health aspects in general, and in fact there may already be some on that point.

 

[PatrickTate]

Over two years ago there was a thread looking at statements by Ellen White regarding the Israelite diet. This thread is a more focused part 2, looking at one aspect--the claim that meat eating weaken's moral powers.

Here are the statements:

The Signs of the Times, January 6, 1876, Art. A

God did not withhold meat from the Hebrews in the wilderness simply to show his authority, but for their good, that they might preserve physical and moral strength. He knew that the use of animal food strengthens the animal passions and enfeebles the intellect. He knew that the gratification of the appetite of the Hebrews for flesh-meats, would weaken their moral powers, and induce such an irritable disposition that the vast army would become insubordinate, that they would lose the high sense of their moral obligations, and refuse to be controlled by the wise laws of Jehovah. Violence and rebellion would exist among them, making it impossible for them to be a pure and happy people in the land of Canaan. God knew what was best for the children of Israel, therefore he deprived them in a great measure of flesh-meats. Satan tempted them to consider this unjust and cruel. He caused them to lust after forbidden things, because he saw that through the indulgence of perverted appetite they would become carnally-minded and could be easily brought to do his will; the lower organs would be strengthened, while the intellectual and moral powers would be weakened.​

Councils for the Church, 228

Upon their settlement in Canaan, the Israelites were permitted the use of animal food, but under careful restrictions which tended to lessen the evil results. The use of swine's flesh was prohibited, as also of other animals and of birds and fish whose flesh was pronounced unclean. Of the meats permitted, the eating of the fat and the blood was strictly forbidden. Only such animals could be used for food as were in good condition. No creature that was torn, that had died of itself, or from which the blood had not been carefully drained, could be used as food. By departing from the plan divinely appointed for their diet, the Israelites suffered great loss. They desired a flesh diet, and they reaped its results. They did not reach God's ideal of character or fulfill His purpose. -CCH 228​

As can be seen from the above, Ellen White indicated that eating meat reduced moral power among the Israelites. She indicated they departed from the plan appointed for their diet, and suffered loss, not reaching God's ideal of character or fulfilling His purpose.


However, these claims do not match up with Scripture

God indicated the Israelites may eat meat, according to the blessing of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 12:15 “However, you may slaughter and eat meat within all your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike.​

God said that if they were faithful He would bless the Israelites with grass so that the Israelites might eat the livestock and be filled.

Deuteronomy 11:15 And I will send grass in your fields for your livestock, that you may eat and be filled.’​

God required the Israelites to eat meat in the Passover.

Exodus 12:8 8 Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. (NKJV)​

God gave regular portions of the sacrifices to the priests.

Leviticus 7:31 And the priest shall burn the fat on the altar, but the breast shall be Aaron’s and his sons’. 32 Also the right thigh you shall give to the priest as a heave offering from the sacrifices of your peace offerings. 33 He among the sons of Aaron, who offers the blood of the peace offering and the fat, shall have the right thigh for his part. 34 For the breast of the wave offering and the thigh of the heave offering I have taken from the children of Israel, from the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and I have given them to Aaron the priest and to his sons from the children of Israel by a statute forever.’ ”​

God outlined the peace offering which involved eating meat from the animal.

Leviticus 19:5 ‘And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the Lord, you shall offer it of your own free will. 6 It shall be eaten the same day you offer it, and on the next day. And if any remains until the third day, it shall be burned in the fire.​

God provided Elijah meat.

1Ki 17:6 And the ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook.​

Jesus provided fish to His disciples, and to the multitudes.

Joh 21:12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord. 13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.​

Jesus ate the Passover, and had His disciples arrange for it, and eat it with Him.

Luke 22:14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer​

Jesus fed the multitude with fish.

Matthew 15:35 So He commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground. 36 And He took the seven loaves and the fish and gave thanks, broke them and gave them to His disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitude. 37 So they all ate and were filled, and they took up seven large baskets full of the fragments that were left.​

Jesus called a fish a good gift, which it would not be if it weakened moral powers.

Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?​

It is unbiblical to claim that Jesus would give food to people that weakened their moral powers, and had "evil results."

Wow!!!!

I did read some of Ms. Ellen White's books thirty or forty years ago and basically I was impressed.

At that time I could not leave the WWCG and join the SDA but I do thank you for these very interesting quotations from her.